Manny to the Dodgers

[winsomme]

Some fabulous summertime hyperbole here.

Without Manny we won't make the playoffs even though we are replacing him with a guy who plays better defense and has almost the exact same numbers this year?

Without Manny we wouldn't have won the 2 World Series even though it was Ortiz's clutch hitting and excellent pitching that brought us back from the dead in 2004 and balance offense and excellent pitching that did the same last year?

There aren't 10 players in the history of the game as good as Manny? Ruth, Cobb, Williams, Gehrig, Mays, Bonds, Killebrew, Mantle, Aaron, Griffey Jr., Schmidt, F. Robinson, B Robinson, Rodriguez, Banks, Musial, Ripken, Rose, Bench, Berra and a bunch of pitchers might have something to say about that.

Manny had a good reason to quit on his teammates in 2006 because the front office made a trade the players didn't like?

I love summertime hyperbole!!

alright nick...if you are so certain that Manny wasn't a big part of this team winning two World Series....make the prediction then.....does this team make the playoffs?

we are leading the Wild Card race right now.....lay this out for me....

i have yet to see one person who is hammering Manny step to the plate and say this team will make the playoffs....

and if you don't think they are going to make the playoffs, then why make the deal?

\


i say they make the playoffs this year and go deep in the playoffs, there you go

cool. that's what i'm talking about.....

i hope you are right.

[Jon]

All I can say is that they better hope that this is addition by subtraction, a la the Nomar trade in 2004, because on paper, this doesn't make a lot of sense.  Bay's good, but he's not scary good like Manny, and that matters in close games.  As clutch as Big Papi is, he's not as good of a pure hitter as Manny is, and pitchers know that.  That's why Ortiz's heroics are possible; pitchers pitch to him.  I worry if they still will pitch to him if it's Jason Bay, and not Manny Ramirez that's behind him. 

The one advantage that the Sox do have over other teams is that they still have some decent bats behind Bay in Drew, Lowell, and likely Youk (I'm guessing he eventually slides back down in the order once Ellsbury pulls it together).  So maybe team still will have to pitch to Papi in many situations. 

Still, I'm nervous.  Manny's has made trouble before and the Sox recovered.  This had better have been worse than other times, or this isn't worth it.  We can talk all we want about how Bay has more value because he makes roughly 1/4 of Manny's salary; however, that's not going to matter come the playoffs.  If teams are going to pitch Ortiz differently now and thus take away his productivity, this could hurt the Sox a lot. 

[nickagneta]

Before people start getting all over may anti-Mannyisms first know that I am a huge Manny Ramirez fan. No hitter on the Red Sox has ever given me more joy watching him hit other than Jim Rice in his prime. He was a huge reason we have 2 World Series wins in the last 4 years. I own only one Red Sox jersey and it is a Ramirez away jersey.

Having said that he was only one of many that are responsible for those pennants flying over on Yawkey Way. I don't look at it that he is any more or any less responsible for those championships than Ortiz, Damon, Nixon, Cabrera, Bellhorn, Mueller, Millar, Varitek, Martinez, Schilling, Lowe, Wakefield, Foulke, Papelbon, Timlin, Youkilis, Pedroia, Lugo, Lowell, Ellsbury, Drew, Matzusaka, Delcarmen, Beckett, Okajima, or Lester.

Could we have won those championships without him? That's debateable. But I know for a fact that he couldn't have won them without the help of all the other aforementioned players.

Manny had an incomparable 8 years here. Maybe only matched in Red Sox history by Rice from '75-'83, Yaz from '65-'72, Williams from '39-'51, and Ortiz from '03 until now.

It's sad that it had to come to this but management and teammates can only take so much of not running out balls, watching doubles turn into singles because Manny posed, Manny not paying attention during games or running under the Green Monster, taking days off, spitefully not swinging at pitches in an important game, pushing down traveling secretaries, starting fights with teammates, and the constant trade demands every last two weeks of July.

Grown men shouldn't need to be babysat. Especially grown men making $20 million a year.

Thanks and bye Manny. You're one of them now. I cheer the name on back of the uniform only if you are wearing the right name on the front of the uniform.

Like Pedro, I'll love what you gave me forever but life goes on and this team has a championship to defend. That fact seems to have gotten lost in all your antics.

[nickagneta]

This team makes the playoffs!

And for those saying how important Manny is to Ortiz, remember 2006 when Manny wasn't there for the last 6 weeks? All Ortiz did was hit .280 something with 17 HRs, 32 RBIs, and a 1.100+ OPS in August and September that year, mostly with someone other than Manny batting behind him.

Look for this team to refocus, go on a streak, and thrive without all the crap that will be surrounding them.

Is that a good enough prediction.

[winsomme]

This team makes the playoffs!

And for those saying how important Manny is to Ortiz, remember 2006 when Manny wasn't there for the last 6 weeks? All Ortiz did was hit .280 something with 17 HRs, 32 RBIs, and a 1.100+ OPS in August and September that year, mostly with someone other than Manny batting behind him.

Look for this team to refocus, go on a streak, and thrive without all the crap that will be surrounding them.

Is that a good enough prediction.

cool. i hope - as with the other poster - that you are right, and gladly will admit to being wrong in that case.

and the thing about Ortiz not simply his stats, but how they pitch him in big at-bats, and IMO you are going to see teams pitch around him in big spots late in games.....and that is where the problem starts.

IMO until we get a legit clean-up hitter, Oritz will not be adequately protected.

[nickagneta]

This team makes the playoffs!

And for those saying how important Manny is to Ortiz, remember 2006 when Manny wasn't there for the last 6 weeks? All Ortiz did was hit .280 something with 17 HRs, 32 RBIs, and a 1.100+ OPS in August and September that year, mostly with someone other than Manny batting behind him.

Look for this team to refocus, go on a streak, and thrive without all the crap that will be surrounding them.

Is that a good enough prediction.

cool. i hope - as with the other poster - that you are right, and gladly will admit to being wrong in that case.

and the thing about Ortiz not simply his stats, but how they pitch him in big at-bats, and IMO you are going to see teams pitch around him in big spots late in games.....and that is where the problem starts.

IMO until we get a legit clean-up hitter, Oritz will not be adequately protected.

It's only a problem if Bay doesn't produce. He hasn't not produced yet. Let's not jump off the Tobin even before the guy gets a chance to see what he can do. The same type of rhetoric was being said about Cabrera taking over Nomar's spot in '04. That turned out okay.

[winsomme]

This team makes the playoffs!

And for those saying how important Manny is to Ortiz, remember 2006 when Manny wasn't there for the last 6 weeks? All Ortiz did was hit .280 something with 17 HRs, 32 RBIs, and a 1.100+ OPS in August and September that year, mostly with someone other than Manny batting behind him.

Look for this team to refocus, go on a streak, and thrive without all the crap that will be surrounding them.

Is that a good enough prediction.

cool. i hope - as with the other poster - that you are right, and gladly will admit to being wrong in that case.

and the thing about Ortiz not simply his stats, but how they pitch him in big at-bats, and IMO you are going to see teams pitch around him in big spots late in games.....and that is where the problem starts.

IMO until we get a legit clean-up hitter, Oritz will not be adequately protected.

It's only a problem if Bay doesn't produce. He hasn't not produced yet. Let's not jump off the Tobin even before the guy gets a chance to see what he can do. The same type of rhetoric was being said about Cabrera taking over Nomar's spot in '04. That turned out okay.

the problem with Nomar is that he wasn't playing regularly (he only played 81 games that season) and he was no where near the slugger of Manny.....

McAdam said they aren't even going to play Bay at the cleanup spot anyway......most likely Lowell or Youk.....and the thing about teams pitching to Ortiz late in games is as much about reputation as anything else.....and if you are an opposing manager are you really going to pitch to Papi or take your chances with Lowell or Youk?

[LB3533]

My prediction is the Red Sox will in fact make the playoffs as the Wild Card.

With the moves the Yankees made before the trade deadline and with the inexperience of the D-Rays....I say the Yanks win the AL East and the D-Rays play "wait till next year".

[vjcsmoke]

Sox would have let Manny walk after this year and gotten nothing in return, this way they get rid of him now and get an All-Star level 30+ HR guy in return, they did have to give up some young guys, but nothing that really bothers me. I like the trade for this year and for next year - Bay makes around 7 million next year, so there's 13 million to add something else via free agency... Bay's #s this year are almost identical to Manny's...

Manny may have been a hitting savant, but his act was getting old in Boston.
I was really shocked by his conceit in saying that the Red Sox don't "DESERVE" a player like him.
I mean how pompous is that?

If we were giving away Manny in his prime... maybe I'd get more upset about losing him.
But let's face it, the guy is 35 and he is no longer that 40-50 HR per season player.
Bay's production is actually slightly BETTER than Manny's right now, not to mention that Bay is younger, a better fielder, and not CRAZY.
That's a tradeoff I'm willing to take.

Also, because Bay makes a lot less money than Manny, the freed up money for 2009 is going to be huge.
The Red Sox can really go after a premier FA then.
Whereas if they had picked up Manny's option, that's 20M of salary NOT going to improving the team in other areas.

Red Sox didn't get as much in return as I'd like, but they got rid of a malcontent and got back a quality LF who is still in his prime.  Overall, this is a win for Boston imo.

[bucknersrevenge]

This team makes the playoffs!

And for those saying how important Manny is to Ortiz, remember 2006 when Manny wasn't there for the last 6 weeks? All Ortiz did was hit .280 something with 17 HRs, 32 RBIs, and a 1.100+ OPS in August and September that year, mostly with someone other than Manny batting behind him.

Look for this team to refocus, go on a streak, and thrive without all the crap that will be surrounding them.

Is that a good enough prediction.

cool. i hope - as with the other poster - that you are right, and gladly will admit to being wrong in that case.

and the thing about Ortiz not simply his stats, but how they pitch him in big at-bats, and IMO you are going to see teams pitch around him in big spots late in games.....and that is where the problem starts.

IMO until we get a legit clean-up hitter, Oritz will not be adequately protected.

what if that cleanup hitter ends up being david ortiz? i thought i remebered ortiz on a couple of occasions saying he actually preferred to hit cleanup but deferred to manny because that was hit preference as well. does anyone else remember this? what about a lineup that bats bay 3rd in front of ortiz or perhaps stick drew back up in the 3 spot and put bay behind him.

[bucknersrevenge]

winsomme stated earlier that we couldve held onto manny and just as easily replaced him in the offseason. thats actually what i was expecting to happen but that begs the question: who is available this offseason? i dont know what comparable free agents we couldve got this offseason. would any of them take the 7.5 bay will get next season?

[jimmyt]

Anyone who thinks the red sox are better off after this trade is flat out wrong and needs to take a second to think about what they are talking about...

The sox needed a SS and RP... what did they do?? they traded their best hitter in Manny.

If by some stretch of the imaginatoin they make the playoffs which is unlikely with the way the way the yanks and rays are playing, they will lose to a number of teams. The Anegels are so much better than them its not even funny...

A playoff tream traded their best hitter and didnt fill any needs... I dont really understand what Theo is thinking here..we are a worse team today than we were yesterday...

Not to mention we are paying the rest of Mannys contract... Manny gave 8 great years... he might have deserved an extension. Im a diehard sox fan but if he goes to the yankees next year i wont even be mad, management did it to themselves.

[Nerf DPOY]

If by some stretch of the imaginatoin they make the playoffs which is unlikely with the way the way the yanks and rays are playing, they will lose to a number of teams. The Anegels are so much better than them its not even funny

I don't know about the funniness factor, but I think the 'Sox as they stand can match up against the Angels. They may be 7 games behind them with an embarrassing head v head matchup but these things have been overcome, in recent baseball history. We'll see how the final TWO months of the season works out if and when the 'Sox make the postseason, before any legit conclusions can be drawn.

As for SS and RP, Masterson's stint is still inconclusive, and OKI has been better of late. Lowrie at short for the time being has been an upgrade over Lugo, we will see.

Peaks and valleys.

[winsomme]

This team makes the playoffs!

And for those saying how important Manny is to Ortiz, remember 2006 when Manny wasn't there for the last 6 weeks? All Ortiz did was hit .280 something with 17 HRs, 32 RBIs, and a 1.100+ OPS in August and September that year, mostly with someone other than Manny batting behind him.

Look for this team to refocus, go on a streak, and thrive without all the crap that will be surrounding them.

Is that a good enough prediction.

cool. i hope - as with the other poster - that you are right, and gladly will admit to being wrong in that case.

and the thing about Ortiz not simply his stats, but how they pitch him in big at-bats, and IMO you are going to see teams pitch around him in big spots late in games.....and that is where the problem starts.

IMO until we get a legit clean-up hitter, Oritz will not be adequately protected.

what if that cleanup hitter ends up being david ortiz? i thought i remebered ortiz on a couple of occasions saying he actually preferred to hit cleanup but deferred to manny because that was hit preference as well. does anyone else remember this? what about a lineup that bats bay 3rd in front of ortiz or perhaps stick drew back up in the 3 spot and put bay behind him.

any way you slice it, teams will be able to pitch around Ortiz now, but i think David will stay in the 3 spot because they seem to like to lefty right thing they have going at the top of the order....


i need to see more of Bay before i can really say....Ken Macha said he swings a lot like Youk...a very "wristy" swing....let's see what happens.

this move puts a lot of pressure on A LOT of guys in the lineup.....especially Drew and Youk not just Bay....let's see how they respond.

[yall hate]

what if that cleanup hitter ends up being david ortiz? i thought i remebered ortiz on a couple of occasions saying he actually preferred to hit cleanup but deferred to manny because that was hit preference as well. does anyone else remember this? what about a lineup that bats bay 3rd in front of ortiz or perhaps stick drew back up in the 3 spot and put bay behind him.

I am pretty sure that discussion that you were talking about had to do with who got to hit in the 3 hole, not 4.  Both guys wanted the protection the other would afford.  I could be mistaken, but I am pretty sure that was how it happened.