Newest Darius Miles update via Boston.com: C's still interested

[billysan]

We don't need any more projects on this roster.  We should be focused on players who can help us win now, rather than gambling on players who realistically might not be able to play a complete season.

Agreed but they will most likely only be available via trade. We dont seem to be in a big hurry to spend money on anyone in the FA market do we? I am quite sure there is someone out there that will sign for the couple of million we have left but are they worth having? Only Walter Herrmann comes to mind.

I think the non-roster invitee list for training camp may be interesting in terms of discussion this year, but what in reality can we expect from that? Dahntay Jones? Esteban Batista? Lance Allred?

[nickagneta]

We don't need any more projects on this roster.  We should be focused on players who can help us win now, rather than gambling on players who realistically might not be able to play a complete season.

Agreed but they will most likely only be available via trade. We dont seem to be in a big hurry to spend money on anyone in the FA market do we? I am quite sure there is someone out there that will sign for the couple of million we have left but are they worth having? Only Walter Herrmann comes to mind.

I think the non-roster invitee list for training camp may be interesting in terms of discussion this year, but what in reality can we expect from that? Dahntay Jones? Esteban Batista? Lance Allred?

I'd take a flyer on Bonzi Wells or Theo Ratliff depending on what Danny sees as the biggest hole. Theo didn't look to bad last year If he can replicate last year's effeort he would be a serviceable backup 5.

[Roy Hobbs]

We don't need any more projects on this roster.  We should be focused on players who can help us win now, rather than gambling on players who realistically might not be able to play a complete season.

Agreed but they will most likely only be available via trade. We dont seem to be in a big hurry to spend money on anyone in the FA market do we? I am quite sure there is someone out there that will sign for the couple of million we have left but are they worth having? Only Walter Herrmann comes to mind.

I think the non-roster invitee list for training camp may be interesting in terms of discussion this year, but what in reality can we expect from that? Dahntay Jones? Esteban Batista? Lance Allred?

I get the feeling that Danny is going to keep the slot open, and try to pick up a big man / center prior to the start of the playoffs.  That player could come via buyout, or perhaps an aging veteran who hasn't signed on with anybody yet (akin to P.J. last year).

[EJPLAYA]

We don't need any more projects on this roster.  We should be focused on players who can help us win now, rather than gambling on players who realistically might not be able to play a complete season.

Agreed but they will most likely only be available via trade. We dont seem to be in a big hurry to spend money on anyone in the FA market do we? I am quite sure there is someone out there that will sign for the couple of million we have left but are they worth having? Only Walter Herrmann comes to mind.

I think the non-roster invitee list for training camp may be interesting in terms of discussion this year, but what in reality can we expect from that? Dahntay Jones? Esteban Batista? Lance Allred?

I'd take a flyer on Bonzi Wells or Theo Ratliff depending on what Danny sees as the biggest hole. Theo didn't look to bad last year If he can replicate last year's effeort he would be a serviceable backup 5.

I agree wholeheartedly on Bonzi. I really think he is the last piece we need if we can't get another big. I do think we can get a big before playoff time. Theo has some real close ties to some guys/coaches in Detroit, and I hear from a big Piston guy up there they are comfortable he is going to re-sign there. I wouldn't mind him at all though. He was solid last year and would fill PJ's role nicely.

I think Darius is a wasted slot that we can't afford to gamble on. Had we gotten Posey or another high end backup big then fine. We didn't though so we need a for sure final thing. We don't need a shooting guard who is injured and can't shoot. We have that already in TA.

[BudweiserCeltic]

First off, I never said that the information I gave was up to the minute recent. I said that he was suspended 10 games. I said it was because of a dieretic he was taking because he was having trouble keeping off the weight. I said that he hadn't played in 2 years. I said that doctors found his knee unfit to resume a career. It's all the truth and it all has transpired within the last few months.

I had quoted someone else in my response too who was talking about recent news. When I asked about how recent they were you came back with the article as a response, so you can see how my response came about concerning the matter. It was concerning his talk of being out of shape. Then you came with the dieretic thing, which if we don't know how recent that was, so it's pointless to assume that he's STILL out of shape. As I said, for someone who's doing whatever he can to lose weight and get in shape, one can easily lose 8-10 pounds in 4 weeks... so news that is a month old is already not recent enough to be calling someone out as out of shape as it's being made out to be, especially when the start of the season is quite a few months away.

Second, I don't think it matters how good he looks in his workouts. The tell all will be in whether he can pass a physical and whether doctors for the Celtics determine that he can play for a whole season. Remember, the evaluation of the Portland doctor and the arbitration doctor were from this year. The doctor from the league appointment only made his determination in April. Do you think that his knee has healed so much in 4 months that suddenly doctors will say that he is 100% ready to go?

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=120822444396463300

The doctors that examined him said it was the worst microfracture injury they had ever seen and that the probability of eventual knee replacement was very high.

Now is that yesterday's news? No. It was news from April 18, 2008. But injuries of that type don't go from being career ending to ready to rock n roll in four months.

Maybe, just maybe, is there a chance that their diagnosis might've been mistaken as far as the extent of the injury goes or how bad it was? These are real concerns, but there's a difference between labeling a player as "done" and simply having doubts about the guy.

I'm fine either way. But lets use real facts here instead of throwing a ton of assumptions. It's fine to speculate, but that's it. Passing things as facts, especially passing them as relevant ones when they're not, is simply wrong. Not saying that you're the one doing this, but there has been a couple of posts of that nature in this thread already; it just so happens that we got pitted against each other in this discussion.

As I said, it's not like I want Miles. Does he intrigue me? Yes, but as long as the case is studied, researched, and examined properly, I'm fine with whatever decision is made. I'm more concerned about the process leading up to the decision than the decision itself.  

Hey, if he's really injured... then Danny by all means don't touch this guy. But if for whatever reason we end up having more roster spaces than we're currently assuming we'll have when it's all said and done, I see little risk in going after this guy for the vet. min. If we only have one roster spot left as we all assume we have, then I'd be more skeptical about signing him. It depends on the circumstances and in our roster situation. The only way I want him getting that last roster spot, if that's the case, is if Danny has done his research properly AND is very [dang] sure that his injury won't haunt him during the season. Even so, Miles said he wants a injury clause inserted in his contract, no? If that's the case, the risk is lessened by some good amount.

Anyways, all we've heard is the Celtics are interested in the guy. Nothing else, and we're already jumping ahead as if he were signed and done. All this tells me is that the Celtics are keeping an eye on him for whatever reason. For all we know he's way down on the Celtics list. I'm glad that they're interested in him. I'm glad they're exploring the option. The same way I was glad the organization didn't blidly go after Posey. This isn't as black and white as it's being made out to be.

Also, it is a $1.5 million gamble since the vet min contract is subsidized by the league for anything over somewhere around $740K. Since the Celts would have to pay that salary and a dollar for dollar penalty as well the total is $1.5 milliuon or so.

Lots of money to gamble on a guy doctors 4 months ago deemed unable to ever play again.

You're right about this, did some recalculating myself.  I don't see it as a big deal myself anyways since it's for a one year contract it has little financial implications either way for us to worry that much about it, especially when it takes nothing from our mid-level.

[nickagneta]

First off, I never said that the information I gave was up to the minute recent. I said that he was suspended 10 games. I said it was because of a dieretic he was taking because he was having trouble keeping off the weight. I said that he hadn't played in 2 years. I said that doctors found his knee unfit to resume a career. It's all the truth and it all has transpired within the last few months.

I had quoted someone else in my response too who was talking about recent news. When I asked about how recent they were you came back with the article as a response, so you can see how my response came about concerning the matter. It was concerning his talk of being out of shape. Then you came with the dieretic thing, which if we don't know how recent that was, so it's pointless to assume that he's STILL out of shape. As I said, for someone who's doing whatever he can to lose weight and get in shape, one can easily lose 8-10 pounds in 4 weeks... so news that is a month old is already not recent enough to be calling someone out as out of shape as it's being made out to be, especially when the start of the season is quite a few months away.

Second, I don't think it matters how good he looks in his workouts. The tell all will be in whether he can pass a physical and whether doctors for the Celtics determine that he can play for a whole season. Remember, the evaluation of the Portland doctor and the arbitration doctor were from this year. The doctor from the league appointment only made his determination in April. Do you think that his knee has healed so much in 4 months that suddenly doctors will say that he is 100% ready to go?

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=120822444396463300

The doctors that examined him said it was the worst microfracture injury they had ever seen and that the probability of eventual knee replacement was very high.

Now is that yesterday's news? No. It was news from April 18, 2008. But injuries of that type don't go from being career ending to ready to rock n roll in four months.

Maybe, just maybe, is there a chance that their diagnosis might've been mistaken as far as the extent of the injury goes or how bad it was? These are real concerns, but there's a difference between labeling a player as "done" and simply having doubts about the guy.

I'm fine either way. But lets use real facts here instead of throwing a ton of assumptions. It's fine to speculate, but that's it. Passing things as facts, especially passing them as relevant ones when they're not, is simply wrong. Not saying that you're the one doing this, but there has been a couple of posts of that nature in this thread already; it just so happens that we got pitted against each other in this discussion.

As I said, it's not like I want Miles. Does he intrigue me? Yes, but as long as the case is studied, researched, and examined properly, I'm fine with whatever decision is made. I'm more concerned about the process leading up to the decision than the decision itself.  

Hey, if he's really injured... then Danny by all means don't touch this guy. But if for whatever reason we end up having more roster spaces than we're currently assuming we'll have when it's all said and done, I see little risk in going after this guy for the vet. min. If we only have one roster spot left as we all assume we have, then I'd be more skeptical about signing him. It depends on the circumstances and in our roster situation. The only way I want him getting that last roster spot, if that's the case, is if Danny has done his research properly AND is very [dang] sure that his injury won't haunt him during the season. Even so, Miles said he wants a injury clause inserted in his contract, no? If that's the case, the risk is lessened by some good amount.

Anyways, all we've heard is the Celtics are interested in the guy. Nothing else, and we're already jumping ahead as if he were signed and done. All this tells me is that the Celtics are keeping an eye on him for whatever reason. For all we know he's way down on the Celtics list. I'm glad that they're interested in him. I'm glad they're exploring the option. The same way I was glad the organization didn't blidly go after Posey. This isn't as black and white as it's being made out to be.

Also, it is a $1.5 million gamble since the vet min contract is subsidized by the league for anything over somewhere around $740K. Since the Celts would have to pay that salary and a dollar for dollar penalty as well the total is $1.5 milliuon or so.

Lots of money to gamble on a guy doctors 4 months ago deemed unable to ever play again.

You're right about this, did some recalculating myself.  I don't see it as a big deal myself anyways since it's for a one year contract it has little financial implications either way for us to worry that much about it, especially when it takes nothing from our mid-level.

Believe it or not I worry about it. The more of these guys they fail on the more they spend to find someone else. Eventually that gets passed down to someone and since I buy about 20 tickets a year with all the commensurate other costs it just keeps hitting my pocket book.

But you are right, it's all speculation and the first time the guy doesn't pass someone's team physical the story is over. Apologize if my last post seemed uppity, it wasn't meant that way but I did think you were addressing me.

I could see where if he passes a physical Danny should have some interest but I'm dubious of that. Anyway, always enjoy the debate BC, you you brought up a lot of good points. TP4U for the opposing side.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Heh, I like discussing with you because you're one of the few that actually tries to understand the oppossing side and at the least tries to see and get as much of the bigger picture as possible regardless of what bias you might have towards a situation or not. I think when we've discussed against each other the discussions have been quite productive, instead of the countless others I've had with many in this forum (mainly the Doc, Rondo, Powe, minutes subjects last season).

In all my discussions, my main goal is to try and bring as much of the truth and facts to light and try to base the discussions on them, instead of discussing among a sort of false information and baseless assumptions. That's why I end up sometimes defending views even I'm not in favor of, but I think it's more productive when discussions are based on actual truths and facts instead of "information" some people might want to pass as facts and absolutes.

Hehe, I understand your pocket book concern, but I'm sorry if I don't care much for it. You're way down in my priority list.

Anyways, it's fine to be dubius, since I am myself... but there are no sure things in this world, even though we would like them to be. Even among the remaining free-agents there are only an handful (if that at all) that I think we can have a decent amount of trust in. But there's a difference between being concerned about someone and completely judging a player as worthless at this point (when us in the sideline have very limited in formation and knowledge on the situation), that was my main sticking point. I can understand the need to not sign another player as a project, that's valid reason for not to go after Miles in my opinion. But, I find the out of shape angle quite lacking.

Anyways, I think we've gotten our points across fairly well. I think that's all I've to say on that matter. I really wish I really knew what we really have in this team currently. There are too many unknowns, and with too many unknowns it's hard to evaluate what we really need.

We don't know what Pruitt is going to give you. We don't know what all the rookies are going to give us. We don't know how Davis' diet is coming. We don't know how this O'bryant fellow is going to pan out. We don't know how much of an improvement a more healthy Tony will show. And, adding another unknown like Miles might be a bad idea... and I can see that. That's why I'm leaning more towards the wait and see; unless Danny really has other plans in mind like some trades, etc. But with all that said, I wouldn't mind signing Miles just because of a selfish interest, and nothing else... nothing worth discussing and not really relevant in a discussion for what's best for our team.

[jdub1660]

take a chance on the guy, its the vet min.

they dont like him, cut him,
there is an upside with him, but no down side

My point exactly. Not only can we cut him if he gets hurt again or doesn't play well enough, but he's asking for an injury clause to help the signing team out. The clause will permit the team to dismiss his contract if he gets hurt. What more does the guy have to say until we give him a chance? IF he can't do it, then drop him off. IF he does do well, well...success for almost no cost.

[The Walker Wiggle]

Well your argument would be valid if we had a lot of money left to sign players and there were a lot of players left for us to choose from. Where are these contributors going to come from? We still have 3 spots left (if Walker goes abroad) why not have one of em be Miles. Then we still have two more spots left to sign these imaginary players you think we should go after.

Evantime, first, I hope we can debate this without talking down to each other. Maybe your question, "Why not?", was rhetorical but I think my arguments against Miles are fair, though - obviously - not definitive. I don't agree that he's low risk. Three teams cut ties with the young man, despite his upside, largely because of his lack of professionalism. And, even if Miles is able to again contribute meaningfully to a NBA club - still a long shot - it can't be expected that he's improved his passing or developed a jump shot in his more than two years away from the pro game.

Although I concede we currently have three open roster spots, do you think it's likely, that neither Giddens nor Walker ends up on the roster? Isn't it more likely, considering the money the Celtics have invested in both, and Ainge's lack of leverage and tradeable contracts, that both sign on?

As far as "imaginary players," I already expressed my preference for a back up center or a vet swingman that's a known commodity - Austin Croshere and Michael Finley actually top my list. But before you pick my choices apart, let me say I'd rather leave the final roster spot unfilled than sign Darius Miles, that's how little I expect from him.

[guava_wrench]

Believe it or not I worry about it. The more of these guys they fail on the more they spend to find someone else. Eventually that gets passed down to someone and since I buy about 20 tickets a year with all the commensurate other costs it just keeps hitting my pocket book.

Do you have a half season pack or do you buy from scalpers?

I find it ridiculous when fans blame teams for the price of tickets when they buy them from scalpers like acetickets, stubhub, etc

The tickets have gone up since the KG deal, but it's worth it.

The good think with Miles is it isn't a big commitment. Every signing has a risk of the player's contribution not being worth the investment, but the worst cast for Miles at a minimum contract with the league paying a large part is something I can live with.

[TripleOT]

The Cs paying a guy like Miles the vet minimum is a drop in the bucket. Anyone worrying about how they spent a couple of bucks (in the NBA world) on filling the back of their roster is clearly worrying a bit too much.

When I buy my Celtics tickets, I don't think "Too bad the signed D Miles for the vet minimum or this ticket would be a dollar cheaper."  Now, when they had a Vin Baker or a Rael LaFrenz taking up 20% of the salary structure, that was reason to complain.  But 2% or less?  Come on.   

[BigAlTheFuture]

Wasn't he compared to KG?

[PRIDE]

I think Bill Walker would contribute more to this team this season than Darius Miles would.

[Cman]

I think Bill Walker would contribute more to this team this season than Darius Miles would.

... I think that is probably right.  Substitute Tony Allen's name for Bill Walker's and I would be with you 100%.

There are still quality FAs that can help the Cs right now in a position of need (read: big men like Francisco Elson, Brian Skinner).  Or, as was said above, DA just waits and sees what happens over the course of the year, and brings in a vet player sometime in Feb....

[Tradetime]

The Cs paying a guy like Miles the vet minimum is a drop in the bucket. Anyone worrying about how they spent a couple of bucks (in the NBA world) on filling the back of their roster is clearly worrying a bit too much.

When I buy my Celtics tickets, I don't think "Too bad the signed D Miles for the vet minimum or this ticket would be a dollar cheaper."  Now, when they had a Vin Baker or a Rael LaFrenz taking up 20% of the salary structure, that was reason to complain.  But 2% or less?  Come on.   

I wrote an article a couple of years ago under my old screename "C'sandthensome" during the main article tryouts on Celticsblog, talking about bringing in this guy. Was mostly annihilated for it, but there were some that were receptive to the idea.

I believe it was TripleOT back then who said my article was like "trying to perform hardcore gangster rap on American idol"    And it was.

I'm still for bringing him in, as I don't think we would benefit any further from bringing in Finley or Devean George.