Should we blame ellsbury or francona??

[Triboy16]

Cuz it is becoming embarressing to endure ellsbury unable to hit

If ellsbury can't hit well right now being a rookie and all francona for the sake of the team has to put him down in the order 8th ot 9th

Let him earn the right to bat at the top of the order and privilege to be able to bat one more than most other hitters

This is not a slump i tell you. He is stressed, pressured, unable to identify anything .

Remember eric hinske? the guy we had last year? he was rookie of the year and the year after he batted like 250 and downhill from there.

So my solution is ease up on the kid francona, move up the order, or even put youkilis at the top and let the kid adjust his hitting without as much pressure. We will lose some crucial games cuz of this costly apparent mistake

[ReadyFor17]

I bet there's a new lineup out there on Friday when Ortiz comes back:

Pedroia
Drew or Youkilis
Ortiz
Manny
Lowell (or Drew if Youk bats 2nd)
Youk (or Lowell if Drew bats 5th)
Lowrie
Varitek
Ellsbury

That ended up a little more confusing than intended but the main point is that I expect Ellsbury to move down in the order. It took forever for Tito to take Lugo out of the leadoff spot last season so this doesn't surprise me but it's definitely time. He could use a few days off too (though Coco isn't much better and I like JE better in center).

The top of the order is NOT the place to be working out the kinks in your swing; he needs to bat 9th, take the pressure off, bunt every few at bats and try to get back to what he was doing last season and early this season. He isn't this bad; I think he's going through an extended slump aided by the fact that he's young and hasn't made the proper adjustments yet, while opposing pitchers have.

Luckily Lowrie looks every bit the starting shortstop that I thought he could be. A lineup with Ortiz and only two current black holes isn't bad, especially when the top 7 hitters would be one of the best 1-7 in the league.

[GJPBoston]

As to whose fault it is, Pedroia or Ellsbury, if there is one thing I have learned reading the posts the last two years, it must be Doc Rivers fault. <G>

Perhaps Francona has been contaminated through their communications.  Actually, I take that back--if that were the case then Francona would change the lineup every night.

Think how much better the Red Sox and Celtics could have done last year if they had decent coaches/managers!

[blazingarrow]

As of today, Johan Satana's ERA is 3.05


Just thought I'd point that out

[steve]

the counter argument would be that if Francona demotes Ellsbury to 9th than that will portray a lack of faith in the player.  And it might, depending on the player's pyschy but Francona has to stick with his loyal managing style through the good and the bad because the good will get you Drew's All-Star season and post season heroics after a horrible first year.  The offseason is for Theo to decide whether to give up on the player a la Renteria.  Tito is working with what he has with the expectation that the player snapping out of a slump will benefit the team more than having an average player (Brandon Moss) take over.  

Plus it sends a message thoughout the clubhouse that if you slump you will still have your job.  That may be the quinisential reason why they have won 2 championships.  Everyone is loose because they aren't worried about failing.  

This was Doc River's main flaw that he is becoming better at but still haunts him from time to time, like not playing House over Cassel that would have been like Francona using Gagne in high level situations during the playoffs.  Doc made a mistake and I think that is why he told Danny that he wants House back, because he realized this mistake.  House was Ubuntu from the start and Doc upset the chemistry by yanking him.  

[NextCeltic34]

Who cares about Ellsbury's struggles. We are still gonna be in 1st place at the end of the season. Why move Pedroia from where he is batting when his numbers look that good? If your gonna move anyone, you can move Youk because he will hit from anywhere. The only person who shouldn't be playing is Lugo. Lowrie is doing great right now. Keep him in there until he starts to cool off.

[ma11l]

I agree with steve, Francona is a very loyal guy, Ellsbury will probably stay in his position in the lineup.  The team's scoring enough runs, he's been great on the base paths.  I'm not too worried about him hitting and getting on base, and I'm definitely not ready to start blaming people for anything. 

[Michael Anthony]

Baseball is a stats game, so here is one - Elssbury is tied for 12 in the AL for runs scored.

He is a threat to score from first, a threat to steal, and an excellent defensive player.

[soap07]

Baseball is a stats game, so here is one - Elssbury is tied for 12 in the AL for runs scored.

So what? Runs and  RBIs are almost completely a lineup oriented stat. Ellsbury, right now, shouldn't be much more than a glorified pinch runner.

[nickagneta]

This thread reminds me of all the knowledgable sports fans that called into WEEI last year(back when I actually listened to that station) in April and May demanding Alex Cora take over for Dustin Pedroia because he was a complete failure. Perdroia was awful for two months. Yes, we are talking about Rookie of the Year, Dustin Pedroia.

Ellsbury is not the .360 average, .950 OPS hitter we saw in the playoffs last year. Maybe someday, maybe never. Be he doesn't have to be. He is probably more like a .290 average, .400 OBP, .840 OPS player that due to his speed will steal a lot of bases and score a lot of runs. And for this club with his defense, that's more than great.

Francona understands and has proven time and again that patience is needed. Does he leave him at the top of the lineup? Not sure, but I know I would. He proved just how valuable he can be there for the first two months of the season. A little confidence building with patience now, could pay off for years to come.

And I think that's the way the Red Sox look at things.

[iowa plowboy]

There are things I don't understand about Francona.

-I can't understand why he puts Delcarmen in with runners on base.  He shuts down anybody when he comes in at the beginning of an inning but seems to consistently allow inherited runners to score.

-I can't understand why he doesn't juggle the lineup some when they're not hitting.

-I can't understand why Varitek doesn't get more rest when he's struggling.

-I can't understand why Francona doesn't run his pitchers a few more pitches (Especially Wakefield...who could throw 200 per start) when they're pitching great....And the bullpen is so inconsistent.

Then it occurs to me that inspite of having their best offensive weapon injured for a good part of the season, playing rookies at two positions and another as a starting pitcher, somehow Francona pushes the right buttons most of the time.....And we'll still end up in the playoffs at season's end.  Francona is fiercely loyal.  What he's done by Pedroia, Lugo, Drew, and Crisp makes for a great clubhouse.  His loyalty to his players goes outside of the clubhouse and to the press. 

As to whose fault it is, Pedroia or Ellsbury, if there is one thing I have learned reading the posts the last two years, it must be Doc Rivers fault. <G>

Excellent point.  It is Rivers' fault.



 

[Triboy16]

Pedroia who struggled early last year got his chance failed, sat a couple of games and while cora also struggled found his bat.

Two months of strugglins is a little long but the patience paid off. For ellsbury we are talking about since the start of the season he has been inconsistant. When did the season start ? last part of april? its been almost 3 months now

My point is don't take the kid off, he will find his way and his defense and running(if he gets on) are top notch but don't let him lead when he is failing to hit(like 0 for 5, 1 for 6 games with no walking and striking out once or twice)

If your leadoff hitter stinks its sort of a downer for the rest of the lineup(luckily we have such a decent hitting team) and in addition yeah its only one hitter, but it also lets the pitcher gain his confidence if he can get that first hitter at the beginning of the game out.

[Bankshot]

You can't blame Francona for the way Jacoby is playing, but you can blame him for keeping him the leadoff spot, especially when they have trouble scoring runs when their leadoff hitter never gets on base.  No way should one of the worst hitters on the team get the most at bats, making the most outs.

[nickagneta]

Pedroia who struggled early last year got his chance failed, sat a couple of games and while cora also struggled found his bat.

Two months of strugglins is a little long but the patience paid off. For ellsbury we are talking about since the start of the season he has been inconsistant. When did the season start ? last part of april? its been almost 3 months now

My point is don't take the kid off, he will find his way and his defense and running(if he gets on) are top notch but don't let him lead when he is failing to hit(like 0 for 5, 1 for 6 games with no walking and striking out once or twice)

If your leadoff hitter stinks its sort of a downer for the rest of the lineup(luckily we have such a decent hitting team) and in addition yeah its only one hitter, but it also lets the pitcher gain his confidence if he can get that first hitter at the beginning of the game out.

Of course Ellsbury is inconsistent. But he has only been hurting the team recently. Over the last 6 weeks he has only been hitting about .240 but before that he was a .290 hitter with a .400 or so OBP.

He had a bad two weeks of the season but then took off and from late April to mid June he was a productive and important part of the line. He was inconsistent fluctuating between .270 and .300 or so but he is a rookie. And he's contributed with excellent defense.

I think it's unfair to compare his struggles to Pedroia's. Dustin was below the Mendoza line for much of April and May and only aspired to reach the batting at .240 level that Ellsbury is currently struggling at.

I think Ellsbury's struggles are easily explained. This is his first taste of extensive travel and this team has been on the road more than any other team in the league. A trip to Japan and 3 west coast trips as well as 3 10 day road trips might be getting to the rookie.

He's hitting:

.231 AVG on the road and .300 at home.
.288 OBP on the road and .382 at home.
.303 SLG on the road and .433 at home.
.591 OBS on the road and .815 at home.

The numbers are ridiculously skewed towards him showing road weariness.

Francona is a huge numbers guy and I'm sure he sees this. With 34 of the last 59 games at home Francona is going to leave Ellsbury right where he is and reap the benefits of the numbers he puts up at Friendly Fenway.

Francona showed more moxie sticking with Pedroia while he hit below .200 for two months. He isn't about to panic because his leadoff kid has hit a slump, a slump that just so happens to coincide with a period in which the team has played only 12 out of their last 34 games at home.

[Green Mountain]

I really wish Ellsbury swung the bat more like Ichiro and less like David Ortiz. He hits too many fly balls with that uppercut swing. I want to see him slap the ball on the ground more and use that amazing speed.