Signing Posey gave C's best chance to win a title. It did?

[TheReaLPuba]

it's not "highlights" if it's something that you actually NEED to replace.

i would argue that whoever we replace these guys with, at some point during a playoff run, they are going to be needed to make similar "highlight" plays under massive pressure. it happens almost every year in the playoffs that role/bench players are called on to make key contributions.

bench players are almost never going to consistently have to have huge numbers in the playoffs on any team, the question more often than not  is will they step to the plate in those instances where they ARE needed. and for our bench, in this playoff run, they did....

you know, "big shot rob" doesn't have that nickname because he had huge numbers in every playoff game....he has the  nickname because of what you are calling "highlights"....

you aren't going to go through a successful playoff run without needing  bench/role players to step up and make huge plays or have a huge game here and there...

it certainly is replaceable, but it's something you won't know about until you get there....how they will respond to the pressure.....

what we're really talking about is "likelihood".

  But if PJ or Eddie or Sam is really clutch for 2-3 games each, is it really that unlikely that whoever replaced them would manage to be really clutch in 2-3 games out of 26? Would that really be that unlikely? PJ hit, in your eyes, the most clutch shot in the playoffs. But does that make him a clutch shooter? Did we always have him on the court when we needed a clutch basket? Did we try and get him shots in those situations?

Name me anyone who are capable shooters like House and Posey out there?

Name me anyone who is a solid vet that is defensive-minded like PJ Brown who can still stick a 15 footer and rebound?

I think it's highly unlikely anyone who we do pickup will be as clutch for 2-3 games out of the 50 they play in the REGULAR season than these 3 guys.

I think its very short-sighted and narrow-minded of C's fans to forget so quickly who helped us win Banner #17 to think they can be easily replaced by min. contract offers.

[kozlodoev]

Name me anyone who are capable shooters like House and Posey out there?

Name me anyone who is a solid vet that is defensive-minded like PJ Brown who can still stick a 15 footer and rebound?

I think it's highly unlikely anyone who we do pickup will be as clutch for 2-3 games out of the 50 they play in the REGULAR season than these 3 guys.

I think its very short-sighted and narrow-minded of C's fans to forget so quickly who helped us win Banner #17 to think they can be easily replaced by min. contract offers.

For real? I think it is very short-sighted of you to forget so quickly how many players there are on the market out there. Posey and House are surely nice, but they are replaceable, believe it or not.

To address your questions: Pargo, Barnes, Kurt Thomas, and Brian Skinner are all out there, to name a few. For what it's worth, according to your very narrow definition of House (someone who can' stick the three), even Dan Dickau can replace him.

So yeah, I think it is highly likely that we will pick three guys that will be as solid contributors as House, Posey, and PJ have been. I am also pretty sure that 2 of those 3 will come at the veteran minimum.

Oh, and FWIW Posey was decidedly average during the regular season. He came through big in the playoffs.

[BballTim]

it's not "highlights" if it's something that you actually NEED to replace.

i would argue that whoever we replace these guys with, at some point during a playoff run, they are going to be needed to make similar "highlight" plays under massive pressure. it happens almost every year in the playoffs that role/bench players are called on to make key contributions.

bench players are almost never going to consistently have to have huge numbers in the playoffs on any team, the question more often than not  is will they step to the plate in those instances where they ARE needed. and for our bench, in this playoff run, they did....

you know, "big shot rob" doesn't have that nickname because he had huge numbers in every playoff game....he has the  nickname because of what you are calling "highlights"....

you aren't going to go through a successful playoff run without needing  bench/role players to step up and make huge plays or have a huge game here and there...

it certainly is replaceable, but it's something you won't know about until you get there....how they will respond to the pressure.....

what we're really talking about is "likelihood".

  But if PJ or Eddie or Sam is really clutch for 2-3 games each, is it really that unlikely that whoever replaced them would manage to be really clutch in 2-3 games out of 26? Would that really be that unlikely? PJ hit, in your eyes, the most clutch shot in the playoffs. But does that make him a clutch shooter? Did we always have him on the court when we needed a clutch basket? Did we try and get him shots in those situations?

Name me anyone who are capable shooters like House and Posey out there?

Name me anyone who is a solid vet that is defensive-minded like PJ Brown who can still stick a 15 footer and rebound?

I think it's highly unlikely anyone who we do pickup will be as clutch for 2-3 games out of the 50 they play in the REGULAR season than these 3 guys.

I think its very short-sighted and narrow-minded of C's fans to forget so quickly who helped us win Banner #17 to think they can be easily replaced by min. contract offers.

  Right. Because it's almost impossible to find players in the nba that are as good as Eddie House and PJ Brown, right? When we signed them the general consensus from all of the nba experts was that we'd signed the biggest clutch performers on the market, right?

[winsomme]

it's not "highlights" if it's something that you actually NEED to replace.

i would argue that whoever we replace these guys with, at some point during a playoff run, they are going to be needed to make similar "highlight" plays under massive pressure. it happens almost every year in the playoffs that role/bench players are called on to make key contributions.

bench players are almost never going to consistently have to have huge numbers in the playoffs on any team, the question more often than not  is will they step to the plate in those instances where they ARE needed. and for our bench, in this playoff run, they did....

you know, "big shot rob" doesn't have that nickname because he had huge numbers in every playoff game....he has the  nickname because of what you are calling "highlights"....

you aren't going to go through a successful playoff run without needing  bench/role players to step up and make huge plays or have a huge game here and there...

it certainly is replaceable, but it's something you won't know about until you get there....how they will respond to the pressure.....

what we're really talking about is "likelihood".

  But if PJ or Eddie or Sam is really clutch for 2-3 games each, is it really that unlikely that whoever replaced them would manage to be really clutch in 2-3 games out of 26? Would that really be that unlikely? PJ hit, in your eyes, the most clutch shot in the playoffs. But does that make him a clutch shooter? Did we always have him on the court when we needed a clutch basket? Did we try and get him shots in those situations?

i'm not arguing that anything is "unlikely". what i'm arguing is that we have seen those guys do it (ie make those 2-3 plays) in our system under the immense pressure of the playoffs. so i'm saying that they are more of a known quantity to us than someone else who is coming in to fill those spots.

i'm also arguing that bench/role players are by virtue of their position on most teams (but especially this one because of the big 3) only really going to have those limited numbers of spots/chances regardless of who the actual players are in the spot/chance...so the value of the seemingly small number of contributions (making them "highlights") is acually very significant when analyzed relative to who is making them (ie bench players).

and what i'm saying is that once w identify who these replacements are (whether it be Bonzi Wells or Maurice Evans or Kurt Thomas or whoever else..), there are going to be points in the playoffs where those guys are going to have to make those 2-3 huge plays or have those 2-3 huge games and they are less of a known quantity in that regard because they haven't done it for us yet....

bench/role players are only going to have "highlight" type of impact on a team like ours (unless there is an injury to the Big 3, etc), but doesn't mean that it is:

A) a minor contribution to the team winning

or 
 
B) easy to replace.

finding players that can deliver in high pressure situations (whether it be 2 or 20)  IMO is just not that easy. and eventhough "highlight" in nature, those "highlights" are many times the difference between winning and losing (games, series, Titles).

if we had gotten blown out in game 4 (tying the series at 2-2), i'm not so sure that we would be looking at the Cs as World Champs...

[winsomme]

it's not "highlights" if it's something that you actually NEED to replace.

i would argue that whoever we replace these guys with, at some point during a playoff run, they are going to be needed to make similar "highlight" plays under massive pressure. it happens almost every year in the playoffs that role/bench players are called on to make key contributions.

bench players are almost never going to consistently have to have huge numbers in the playoffs on any team, the question more often than not  is will they step to the plate in those instances where they ARE needed. and for our bench, in this playoff run, they did....

you know, "big shot rob" doesn't have that nickname because he had huge numbers in every playoff game....he has the  nickname because of what you are calling "highlights"....

you aren't going to go through a successful playoff run without needing  bench/role players to step up and make huge plays or have a huge game here and there...

it certainly is replaceable, but it's something you won't know about until you get there....how they will respond to the pressure.....

what we're really talking about is "likelihood".

  But if PJ or Eddie or Sam is really clutch for 2-3 games each, is it really that unlikely that whoever replaced them would manage to be really clutch in 2-3 games out of 26? Would that really be that unlikely? PJ hit, in your eyes, the most clutch shot in the playoffs. But does that make him a clutch shooter? Did we always have him on the court when we needed a clutch basket? Did we try and get him shots in those situations?

Name me anyone who are capable shooters like House and Posey out there?

Name me anyone who is a solid vet that is defensive-minded like PJ Brown who can still stick a 15 footer and rebound?

I think it's highly unlikely anyone who we do pickup will be as clutch for 2-3 games out of the 50 they play in the REGULAR season than these 3 guys.

I think its very short-sighted and narrow-minded of C's fans to forget so quickly who helped us win Banner #17 to think they can be easily replaced by min. contract offers.

  Right. Because it's almost impossible to find players in the nba that are as good as Eddie House and PJ Brown, right? When we signed them the general consensus from all of the nba experts was that we'd signed the biggest clutch performers on the market, right?

it's not so much that it is impossible as it is an "unknown" how many of the prospective replacements would perform in our system and in the pressure of the playoffs.....

the actual contributions of PJ, Posey and Eddie were in line with things that each of them had done their whole careers....and there are other players out there who can do similar things (although for Posey who those players are is pretty unclear right now), but the difference between those players and Eddie, PJ and Posey is that they already showed they could do it...

[cordobes]

it's not "highlights" if it's something that you actually NEED to replace.

i would argue that whoever we replace these guys with, at some point during a playoff run, they are going to be needed to make similar "highlight" plays under massive pressure. it happens almost every year in the playoffs that role/bench players are called on to make key contributions.

bench players are almost never going to consistently have to have huge numbers in the playoffs on any team, the question more often than not  is will they step to the plate in those instances where they ARE needed. and for our bench, in this playoff run, they did....

you know, "big shot rob" doesn't have that nickname because he had huge numbers in every playoff game....he has the  nickname because of what you are calling "highlights"....

you aren't going to go through a successful playoff run without needing  bench/role players to step up and make huge plays or have a huge game here and there...

it certainly is replaceable, but it's something you won't know about until you get there....how they will respond to the pressure.....

what we're really talking about is "likelihood".

  But if PJ or Eddie or Sam is really clutch for 2-3 games each, is it really that unlikely that whoever replaced them would manage to be really clutch in 2-3 games out of 26? Would that really be that unlikely? PJ hit, in your eyes, the most clutch shot in the playoffs. But does that make him a clutch shooter? Did we always have him on the court when we needed a clutch basket? Did we try and get him shots in those situations?

Name me anyone who are capable shooters like House and Posey out there?

Name me anyone who is a solid vet that is defensive-minded like PJ Brown who can still stick a 15 footer and rebound?

I think it's highly unlikely anyone who we do pickup will be as clutch for 2-3 games out of the 50 they play in the REGULAR season than these 3 guys.

I think its very short-sighted and narrow-minded of C's fans to forget so quickly who helped us win Banner #17 to think they can be easily replaced by min. contract offers.

  Right. Because it's almost impossible to find players in the nba that are as good as Eddie House and PJ Brown, right? When we signed them the general consensus from all of the nba experts was that we'd signed the biggest clutch performers on the market, right?

it's not so much that it is impossible as it is an "unknown" how many of the prospective replacements would perform in our system and in the pressure of the playoffs.....

the actual contributions of PJ, Posey and Eddie were in line with things that each of them had done their whole careers....and there are other players out there who can do similar things (although for Posey who those players are is pretty unclear right now), but the difference between those players and Eddie, PJ and Posey is that they already showed they could do it...

Yeps. Talking about players in the NBA is misleading because we're restricted to a weak free-agent market and to our weak trade assets. Also, one have to consider if the player would fit well in this team.

For example, Pargo would bring the same that House can offer and then some. But:
1. He would be more expensive.
2. Can he understand his role? Remember him last season playing heroics, in game 3 of the Dallas series, where I think he took more shots than Paul. Or in the elimination game vs. the Spurs. Yeah, he made some big shots, but eventually they lost those games, and Pargo colding their best players out of the game probably played a role. Can he change in his team? Maybe. Am I sure he will? No. Would I take him for the same salary that House demands? Yes. Would I pay him twice what I could pay House? No way.

Also PJ. He brings very needed man-to-man post defense. Besides Kurt Thomas, there is no free-agent that is remotely as good as him doing that. I'd prefer Thomas, because at this point of their careers, he's better than PJ in other aspects of the game, but he's also undesized for a center and he'll demand a higher salary.

[BballTim]

it's not so much that it is impossible as it is an "unknown" how many of the prospective replacements would perform in our system and in the pressure of the playoffs.....

the actual contributions of PJ, Posey and Eddie were in line with things that each of them had done their whole careers....and there are other players out there who can do similar things (although for Posey who those players are is pretty unclear right now), but the difference between those players and Eddie, PJ and Posey is that they already showed they could do it...

  So Eddie House averages 8 minutes a game in the playoffs (3 minutes a game vs Det), shoots 17-56 from the field for the playoffs, and goes scoreless in 18 of the 26 playoff games and you're claiming that we'll have trouble replacing his clutch playoff play? PJ shot well against Cleveland but poorly against Det and LA, and didn't rebound particularly well. We can't replace his production?

[timepiece33]

So Eddie House averages 8 minutes a game in the playoffs (3 minutes a game vs Det), shoots 17-56 from the field for the playoffs, and goes scoreless in 18 of the 26 playoff games and you're claiming that we'll have trouble replacing his clutch playoff play? PJ shot well against Cleveland but poorly against Det and LA, and didn't rebound particularly well. We can't replace his production?

So who is going to replace James Posey's production offensively AND defensively?  You do realize we have lost the three guys off our bench with the best defensive ratings and win shares?   

Minimize the production of any bench all you want, but it was an important part of our team in the playoffs.

It's easy to say they are replaceable without considering the replacement possibilities available.   Speaking in generalities is fine, but who are the guys we can sign or trade for now that the pipe dream of Corey Maggette has passed by?

A majority of the options presented so far make our bench worse.  Depending on guys who are considered so flawed by their teams that they would rather buy them out than pay them to be on their bench is kind of interesting.

There are still names out there that are feasible and could make our bench decent again, but right now ... the bench is a major weakness.

[Edgar]

Rondo / House / Pruitt
Allen / Allen / House
Pierce /   I dont know really ( maybe Gomes ) but i dont know       / Scal
Garnett / Powe / BBD
Perk / K Thomas / O Bryant

Just secure the pieces there and we will be all right
of course K thomas is my dream but
my both dreams or nightmares of last year came true
Sam and PJ

[winsomme]

it's not so much that it is impossible as it is an "unknown" how many of the prospective replacements would perform in our system and in the pressure of the playoffs.....

the actual contributions of PJ, Posey and Eddie were in line with things that each of them had done their whole careers....and there are other players out there who can do similar things (although for Posey who those players are is pretty unclear right now), but the difference between those players and Eddie, PJ and Posey is that they already showed they could do it...

  So Eddie House averages 8 minutes a game in the playoffs (3 minutes a game vs Det), shoots 17-56 from the field for the playoffs, and goes scoreless in 18 of the 26 playoff games and you're claiming that we'll have trouble replacing his clutch playoff play? PJ shot well against Cleveland but poorly against Det and LA, and didn't rebound particularly well. We can't replace his production?

again, you keep going back to simply stats and what i'm saying is that there is more to it than that....

can we get someone who can shoot the same percentage as PJ and Eddie and Posey.....? sure.

but will they make the big play....hit the big shot....make the key boxout or steal, etc....will they come into the game with the same focus....will they have the same positive effect on the players around them? i don't know.....maybe...

Bball, you basically keep ignoring my whole point here and keep going back to the stat lines. i mean, was it really that long ago that Eddie was chasing down that loose ball in the CLE series knocking it to Posey who got fouled by Wally - totally pumping up the fans and teammates?

[nickagneta]

Were BBallTim and I the only ones who saw that our bench was completely awful and just didn't show up for half of the playoff games were bad to mediocre in about another 3 games and very good for the other 10 games.

Reflect upon these numbers.

In 16 playoff games the Celtics bench had an average of:

FG:  75-233 at 32.1%
3PT:  26-79 at 32.9%
+/-:  -296 or -18.5/game
REB:  142 or 8.9/game
PTS:  245 or 15.3/game

In 10 playoff games, 5 of which were 5 of the last 6 games you saw because they occured in the Finals, so being more recent maybe you remember them more:

FG:  115-232 at 49.5%
3PT:  28-71 at 39.4%
+/-:  338 or 33.8/game
REB:  142 or 14.2/game
PTS:  313 or 31.3/game

So let me throw a hypothetical at you.

If those 5 games in the Lakers series the bench as a whole performed more like they did in 16 other games in the playoffs and the Celtics had lost in six games instead of the Lakers, would everyone right now be in an uproar over the fact that Posey signed elsewhere and that House, Allen, Cassell, and Brown might not be returning?

I thank heaven every day that I am blessed enough to be a Boston sports fan and have my teams be as good as they are. But I cheer the uniforms and then the players in those uniforms.

Posey and the others came up big at times and the Celtics won the Championship. I can see where BBall calls that highlights. But if I'm the GM, I have to look at the bench of this team as its biggest weakness and hope to find players that will not be so Jekyl and Hyde in the biggest games of the year. Granted bringing in a bunch of 22 year old players probably isn't the way to do that but the offseason isn't over yet.

Posey, Brown, Cassell, and House had some highlights and great moments in the playoffs but collectively they were horrendous for 16 out of the 26 playoff games and fantastic for 10 0f 26. There was very little in between.

So before throwing out what BBallTim is saying take a look at the numbers and then remember back. Go look through all the box scores like I did. Replay those games in your head or on your DVR. For over 60% of the games they played this offseason our bench sucked.

This may be why Danny won't throw big bucks at Posey or a raise at House or bring back the others. Maybe Danny sees what I see, that the starting five is the best in the league and what they need to succeed again is a consistent bench. Our's wasn't for the playoffs and for a good part of the second half of the season.

Let's give Danny some more time to see what he puts together. Maybe the unit he puts together as a whole will be as productive and yet more consistent and hence make the roller coaster ride that was the playoffs a whole lot easier and smoother ride.

[winsomme]

Were BBallTim and I the only ones who saw that our bench was completely awful and just didn't show up for half of the playoff games were bad to mediocre in about another 3 games and very good for the other 10 games.

Reflect upon these numbers.

In 16 playoff games the Celtics bench had an average of:

FG:  75-233 at 32.1%
3PT:  26-79 at 32.9%
+/-:  -296 or -18.5/game
REB:  142 or 8.9/game
PTS:  245 or 15.3/game

In 10 playoff games, 5 of which were 5 of the last 6 games you saw because they occured in the Finals, so being more recent maybe you remember them more:

FG:  115-232 at 49.5%
3PT:  28-71 at 39.4%
+/-:  338 or 33.8/game
REB:  142 or 14.2/game
PTS:  313 or 31.3/game

So let me throw a hypothetical at you.

If those 5 games in the Lakers series the bench as a whole performed more like they did in 16 other games in the playoffs and the Celtics had lost in six games instead of the Lakers, would everyone right now be in an uproar over the fact that Posey signed elsewhere and that House, Allen, Cassell, and Brown might not be returning?

I thank heaven every day that I am blessed enough to be a Boston sports fan and have my teams be as good as they are. But I cheer the uniforms and then the players in those uniforms.

Posey and the others came up big at times and the Celtics won the Championship. I can see where BBall calls that highlights. But if I'm the GM, I have to look at the bench of this team as its biggest weakness and hope to find players that will not be so Jekyl and Hyde in the biggest games of the year. Granted bringing in a bunch of 22 year old players probably isn't the way to do that but the offseason isn't over yet.

Posey, Brown, Cassell, and House had some highlights and great moments in the playoffs but collectively they were horrendous for 16 out of the 26 playoff games and fantastic for 10 0f 26. There was very little in between.

So before throwing out what BBallTim is saying take a look at the numbers and then remember back. Go look through all the box scores like I did. Replay those games in your head or on your DVR. For over 60% of the games they played this offseason our bench sucked.

This may be why Danny won't throw big bucks at Posey or a raise at House or bring back the others. Maybe Danny sees what I see, that the starting five is the best in the league and what they need to succeed again is a consistent bench. Our's wasn't for the playoffs and for a good part of the second half of the season.

Let's give Danny some more time to see what he puts together. Maybe the unit he puts together as a whole will be as productive and yet more consistent and hence make the roller coaster ride that was the playoffs a whole lot easier and smoother ride.

i don't know if you remember nick, but the WHOLE TEAM struggled on the road in the first two series....and improved like you said in the ECF and Finals...

isn't it also possible that now that we are overhauling our bench, the new bench is going to have to go through the same playoff growing pains....growing pains that would have been in the past had we brought back this bench.....

i mean, using your logic, we should be looking to replace Ray based on how poorly he played in the first two series.

[Who]

How many other team's benches performed better than the Celtics?

Serious question. I'm wondering.

How about the teams that played from the second round on:

Cavs? Pistons? Magic? Hornets? Spurs? Lakers? Jazz?

[winsomme]

How many other team's benches performed better than the Celtics?

Serious question. I'm wondering.

How about the teams that played from the second round on:

Cavs? Pistons? Magic? Hornets? Spurs? Lakers? Jazz?

depends on the measuring stick.....based on stats there probably others that seem better....but i think we know that the Cs bench was instrumental in us winning a Title. personally i wouldn't have traded our  bench with anyone during this playoff run.

CLEs was pretty good....

[winsomme]

in 15 out of the first 20 playoff games, Ray Allen shot 32% from the field. that's a good 12-13 percent below his season average....

would you really want to trade what we got as a whole from Ray in the playoffs...?

plus, you guys are also arguing that we won't need as much from the bench because the starters will be better next season. well, why can't we argue that the bench would also be better based on playing together for a season.