Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston

[Sweet17]

I personally don't think there's any comparison between Pose and Mags. I like Maggette's game, but he's no Posey. First and foremost Posey's a proven winner. He knows he's not a focal point of the offense, and he's one of the few chosen players left in the NBA that pride themselves on defense night in and night out. Intangibles. Not to mention ya boy is ice cold in the clutch. Maggette will be looking for ways to score and that's not what won us our title, not from the roster spot we're speaking of. We have enough fire power, I want the defensive pride and basketball savviness, not the flashy numbers. Will Mags come here and just all of a sudden commit to defense on the Posey level? Not even in his realm.

If we signed him - you would be ticked off for years. Where was Posey on 2 years ago Miami team.. ?! That team sucked - and Posey was benched for conditioning failure.

Pete

[earl]

If throwing a bunch of great scorers together was all it took to win a title, teams like this year's Lakers, and the Mavs and Suns of the past few years would have won some titles.

That's such an exaggeration. The difference between Posey and Maggette is going from the best defensive team in the league to throwing a bunch of scorers together..?

[YaBoySon]

Clippers fans aren't exactly crying out for Maggette's return. I wouldn't exactly call his NBA tenure a successful one. We just witnessed Posey bought in to a KG-led juggernaut. Miami truly "bought" their championship. We've purchased a 3 or 4 year run at this, and outside of the big 3 Posey is one of the biggest reasons. I don't see him slacking when he's already in the second round and eastern conference finals by default every year. The ultimate "proven" point would be multiple rings for him.

[rondofan1255]

Hey, maybe if Miles signs, he can convince CM to sign too.

Anyways,

who really is the #1 option for DA? Obviously, the majority here probably want Posey the number one priority.

[Jon]

If throwing a bunch of great scorers together was all it took to win a title, teams like this year's Lakers, and the Mavs and Suns of the past few years would have won some titles.

That's such an exaggeration. The difference between Posey and Maggette is going from the best defensive team in the league to throwing a bunch of scorers together..?

True.  However, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't make us worse.  And last time I checked, this team went to 7 games in two series, and the Cleveland series came down to 5 points.  So even a slight decrease in production could mean the difference between #18 or not. 

I'm not totally sold against Maggette; I think he's a good player.  I just seriously question how you fit another scorer onto this team.  Rondo is going to want more shots next year and the Big Three aren't going to want less than they've already given up.  It's not like the Celtics are going to be magically given an extra 15 possessions per game to accommodate Maggette.  I know people talk about needing a scorer off the bench, but if Doc actually got his rotations down a bit better, he could be sure that there's almost always 2 members of the Big Three on the court at all times.  Then there wouldn't be a need for a bench scorer. 

I know some of you are laughing at the Maggette/Posey comparison, and on paper it does look laughable.  But there were a ton of people thinking that Gary Payton was a huge upgrade for the Lakers over Derek Fisher in 2003-2004, and that didn't work out because Payton's style didn't mesh with the Laker's triangle.  And that was a seemingly even more lopsided upgrade that didn't work out. 

I hope if the C's sign Maggette, we find a way to fit him in.  I just think that between his style and finding enough touches for everyone, there's a lot of room for error.  Remember, this isn't football where you need 40+ players to be a great team.  In basketball, you can win a title with 8-9 good players.  At some point, some of the added players start becoming repetitive and only useful in the case of an injury. 

[earl]

True.  However, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't make us worse.  And last time I checked, this team went to 7 games in two series, and the Cleveland series came down to 5 points.  So even a slight decrease in production could mean the difference between #18 or not.

We could roll out the same team and lose in the 1st, 2nd or conference final rounds next year. That's why you play the games, as they say.

I'm not totally sold against Maggette; I think he's a good player.  I just seriously question how you fit another scorer onto this team.  Rondo is going to want more shots next year and the Big Three aren't going to want less than they've already given up.  It's not like the Celtics are going to be magically given an extra 15 possessions per game to accommodate Maggette.  I know people talk about needing a scorer off the bench, but if Doc actually got his rotations down a bit better, he could be sure that there's almost always 2 members of the Big Three on the court at all times.  Then there wouldn't be a need for a bench scorer.

Either the core of this team buys into ubuntu or it doesn't. That means it's team first, or me first. There's no I'll put team first, as long as it only costs me 5 PPG off my average, that's me first. The whole point is for players to not even focus on the PPG production, touches, etc., because if that is the focus for the individual, it costs the team. Players either commit to team or they don't. If they don't, we'll probably not see 18 next year, regardless of who we sign.

The only relevent question here is would Maggette commit to team first. GPA have already proven they can put team first. If for some odd reason we lose that mentality, i.e., Pierce decides he wants HIS 20 PPG next year and plays with that mentality, it doesn't matter who we sign. Of course, I don't expect any of these guys to adopt that approach.

I know some of you are laughing at the Maggette/Posey comparison, and on paper it does look laughable.  But there were a ton of people thinking that Gary Payton was a huge upgrade for the Lakers over Derek Fisher in 2003-2004, and that didn't work out because Payton's style didn't mesh with the Laker's triangle.  And that was a seemingly even more lopsided upgrade that didn't work out.

And a ton of people made the same "roll out the balls" argument last year with GPA. Which scenario is more applicable to next year's Celt's?

[cordobes]

Ok, some food for thought:
[...]

  Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but you're playing a kind of shell game here. You're comparing Maggette's offensive efficiency not with Posey's, but with the team when Posey is playing (which is higher than Posey's efficiency). It seems to make sense, but when you combine it with your next post on the subject:

"Well, I didn't make any kind of analysis between Posey and Maggette. Here's some more raw data to thing about: What was the improvement of GPA eFG% after moving from their previous lousy teams (well, Pierce didn't actually move, but you get the idea) to the best team in the NBA:

Pierce
06/07 - .502
07/08 - .529     

Garnett
06/07 - .480   
07/08 - .539

Allen
06/07 - .509
07/08 - .532         

Will Maggette's efficiency raise? I'm quiet sure it will - even though he's going to be in a different situation that the 3 previous players. But that's not the issue here. The issue is: how much Maggette's higher efficiency will help the Celtics improving their team offensive efficiency? From whom will Maggette get his possessions? He won't get them from Garnett, Perkins, Powe and Rondo, I can assure you. He'll get them primarily from Pierce, Posey and, to less extent Ray Allen."

  A few things jump out from this paragraph: A) that you'd expect Maggette's efficiency to increase, and B) that he'll get his shots from Pierce, Posey and, to less extent Ray Allen. Last year Maggette was about as efficent as Posey the year before he joined the Celts and a little more efficient that Paul or Ray were in 06-07. So getting him shots would likely make us slightly more efficient. Also, while Maggette is more efficient offensively at sf than sg, he seems to be better defensively at sg than at sf (in fact, his numbers before this year weren't that bad on the defensive side).

  Again, feel free to point out any mistakes or incorrect assumptions that you think I'm making.

Fair points to bring up.


You're comparing Maggette's offensive efficiency not with Posey's, but with the team when Posey is playing (which is higher than Posey's efficiency). It seems to make sense

It makes perfect sense as a starting point. Also, I'm comparing Maggette's off. eff. when he played under certain and well-defined assumptions - as a short-cut to the role he'd be playing in Boston, as defined by BC. I used this to show that it wasn't that obvious that playing that role, assuming he'd keep the eff. rates he historically had while playing that role, Maggette would help to improve our off. eff.

that you'd expect Maggette's efficiency to increase,

Yeps, but I inserted a caveat there and still left a few others to use later. Again, the important is not if Maggette's off. eff. will raise but what will happen to the Celtics' off. eff. 

Last year Maggette was about as efficent as Posey the year before he joined the Celts and a little more efficient that Paul or Ray were in 06-07. So getting him shots would likely make us slightly more efficient

I'll have to disagree here. That's why I said that Maggette would be in a different situation than GPA.

For starters, I compared Maggette's stats from certain seasons, and not for the last one, because his role would be very different in Boston. And in all fairness, I have serious doubts that the premise is correct (Maggette's usage % was always above or nearly 25% in all those years, while last season Posey usg% was 13.5% - also, Maggette had a >20% usage rate every season since he joined the league, including his rookie year; last year Pierce's was 24.8%, Garnett 25.5% and, very significantly, Ray's was 21.6% down from 29.5% in his last year in Seattle).

Doppo, and as it's backed by the stats, during his career Maggette was always a strongside player. Taking his opponent of the dribble, with or without screens, or rolling in the post, and jumping into people in the paint to draw fouls is a big part of his game. I'm pretty sure that nobody will argue that Maggette is a good offensive player off the ball because we've never seen him filling that role consistently. But that's what he's going to be required to be in Boston. Somebody has to fill that role (and we are strictly speaking about offense here).

An offense is not only about scoring. It's a large part of it, but if you have 5 players whose primary skill is scoring, there's a high chance you won't score much, unless they are all very good all-around players. You need guys to set screens - is Maggette a better screener than Posey?; you need players to fake cuts - is Maggette better?; you need facilitators, distributors, who can play safe; you need fixers and creatives; you need guys that provide space. Posey being a better spot-up 3pt jumper than Maggette when his shot is not contested (I don't know for sure if he is, we don't have that kind of advanced stats available), even though the later is better in anything else scoring related, may be enough to make our overall offense worse, as odd as this may seem. But meshing and balance are the secrets for a potent offense, not outstanding scorers, in spite of how efficient they may be.

I understand, from my readings here, that many are assuming that Maggette can be as effective as a scorer despite of playing in a different offensive role, but I see that as a leap. The problem is not only Maggette taking shots from Pierce and Posey, or even Ray Allen. It's the kind of shots, what he and Pierce or Ray (as the three of them can't play together) will have to do while off the ball, and last, but not least, it's not having many plays prepared and called for him. And Maggette is a good player, but he's not Ray Allen or Paul Pierce; so what's the point of making our worst wing scorer the primary on-the-ball offensive winger?

I think it's consensual that our off. eff. would improve with Maggette, and not Posey, coming off the bench to replace Pierce, with the other starters on the floor. But how many minutes you want Pierce benched during the playoffs? Seven, eight? Other than that (and again, one would be hurting the D, it would be strictly an offensive improvement), I really don't know - Pierce's role is the only one that clearly fits Maggette. I'm still to figure out what kind of rotations we could use. He's not a PG, he's not a post player. I don't know if Maggette-Pierce facilitates our offense more than Posey-Pierce, and this tandem creates huge problems defensively - do you really want to see one of them fighting screens to chase Rip around the floor or trying to stop Wade on the perimeter? I mean, I can imagine plays, one could run 2-2s with them, but then you'd need shooters, so Rondo's backup presence would be required; Pierce can play in the weakside, but IMO, that would be a total waste - it would be like Phil using Kobe as the 1 in the triangle... And we can't play any of them at the 4 for extended minutes because none can defend the post and we'd need to change our all game philosophy (increase the tempo, Garnett as a center, another defensive system, a 4 out 1 in offense - probably it would be a "doughnut offense", considering Garnett's tendency to play outside). 

If people really believe that Maggette's offense would make up for what we'd lose on defense, I'd like to see some more substantial arguments. The fact that he is a scorer and a good player is not enough for me. The idea that if a player is effective doing much, therefore he must be effective doing less is a total misconception: Dantley and Iverson are two names that come to mind. The Payton-Fisher example previously used is also relevant, because it shows the importance of the offensive system: sometimes you prefer to play the worse player because he has better skills for a specific role. 


Also, while Maggette is more efficient offensively at sf than sg, he seems to be better defensively at sg than at sf (in fact, his numbers before this year weren't that bad on the defensive side).

Well, this sentence of yours is probably stats based. When I said that Maggette couldn't guard SGs, I based myself in my naked eye observations. I wouldn't give much attention to his SG stats - he hasn't played there for a long time, Dunleavy never liked to play him at the 2 and I fully agree with him. He only played him as SG for very brief stints, against good matchups (hence his better def. numbers, I'd say). And I can't see Maggette being effective in the offense against most SGs, unless the team helps him (very feasible, of course).

The same goes for my observations on his defense. I mean, I was never worried in understanding the exact reasons causing Maggette's defensive problems, but even not scouting a particular player, one can grasp how good or bad he is defensively in a couple of games, let alone dozens during years. If it's due to lack of effort, mental weakness, physical limitations or lack of individual skills, I don't know; but he's been consistently a bad defender. I mean, if you want to use stats, see how Clippers' defensive efficiency was consistently worse when he was on court during the last 5 years (with a single exception, 05-06, when he barely played). Also, remember he's been playing along good defensive swingmen, especially Ross, who generally guard the opponent's best player.

[cordobes]

This a very good post on this subject:

http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=64&topic=20712.msg325443#msg325443

Exactly what I tried to explain in my previous one, but written with proper grammar and graceful eloquence. TP for Jon.

[Jon]

True.  However, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't make us worse.  And last time I checked, this team went to 7 games in two series, and the Cleveland series came down to 5 points.  So even a slight decrease in production could mean the difference between #18 or not.

We could roll out the same team and lose in the 1st, 2nd or conference final rounds next year. That's why you play the games, as they say.

I'm not totally sold against Maggette; I think he's a good player.  I just seriously question how you fit another scorer onto this team.  Rondo is going to want more shots next year and the Big Three aren't going to want less than they've already given up.  It's not like the Celtics are going to be magically given an extra 15 possessions per game to accommodate Maggette.  I know people talk about needing a scorer off the bench, but if Doc actually got his rotations down a bit better, he could be sure that there's almost always 2 members of the Big Three on the court at all times.  Then there wouldn't be a need for a bench scorer.

Either the core of this team buys into ubuntu or it doesn't. That means it's team first, or me first. There's no I'll put team first, as long as it only costs me 5 PPG off my average, that's me first. The whole point is for players to not even focus on the PPG production, touches, etc., because if that is the focus for the individual, it costs the team. Players either commit to team or they don't. If they don't, we'll probably not see 18 next year, regardless of who we sign.

The only relevent question here is would Maggette commit to team first. GPA have already proven they can put team first. If for some odd reason we lose that mentality, i.e., Pierce decides he wants HIS 20 PPG next year and plays with that mentality, it doesn't matter who we sign. Of course, I don't expect any of these guys to adopt that approach.

I know some of you are laughing at the Maggette/Posey comparison, and on paper it does look laughable.  But there were a ton of people thinking that Gary Payton was a huge upgrade for the Lakers over Derek Fisher in 2003-2004, and that didn't work out because Payton's style didn't mesh with the Laker's triangle.  And that was a seemingly even more lopsided upgrade that didn't work out.

And a ton of people made the same "roll out the balls" argument last year with GPA. Which scenario is more applicable to next year's Celt's?

I think that we're disagreeing on is how much everyone's willing to sacrifice.  You talk about if Pierce wants "his 20 points" next year, there will be problems.  Actually, if the team comes back as currently constructed, all Pierce will need to get "his 20" will be about .5 ppg. 

I think all the Big Three will continue to sacrifice next year.  My only question is how much.  As I already said, Rondo's coming into his own.  I expect his shots to increase.  Throw in Maggette in there--who you think will score 16 ppg--and all of the sudden you're looking at 20 ppg or more, coming from somewhere.  Let's just say that somehow the extra firepower gives us an overall 5 ppg improvement on last year, that's still 15 ppg coming from somewhere.  What I'm saying is that, yes, Ray Allen is into ubuntu, but I don't know how much he's going to be into ubuntu if his ppg average drops from 17 to 12 after it was at 26 two years ago.  Yes, teams come first, but what's the national media going to say about that besides some crazy assertion that Ray Allen's game is slipping?  You talk about how everyone though GPA couldn't all share the basketball last year and they did.  Now you're trying to throw 1 1/2 more players into the mix?  I'm not sure how that works out. 

Also, you talk ubuntu, how does Maggette fit into that?  As I said before, the Big Three only sacrificed numbers.  We're asking Maggette to sacrifice salary, starting, touches, as well as numbers to come here.  Is he going to be hugging the starters before he games?  How's he going to feel when he's benched in every important part of the game? 

My last point that I haven't touched on much is Maggette's age.  I'd be more behind this move if he was in his early to mid 20s.  Sure, he's not old, but he'll be 29 in November, so it's not like he's really any part of Danny's rebuilding effort.  And while you could make the argument that he'll step into Allen's shoes as he slips, as I already said, I don't think that he's a good enough talent to take Allen's place and still maintain a championship mentality.  Furthermore, I don't think his game compliments Pierce's and Garnett's enough to work either.  It's really easy to say that Garnett + 2 great swing scorers = title, however some people forget how different Allen and Pierce really are.  If Ray Allen wasn't the greatest shooter in the game, there probably wouldn't be enough shots to go around for the Big Three.  However, since Ray can partially generate his offense from the weakside, it worked.  I don't think Maggette can do that. 

[BCelts]

If we signed him - you would be ticked off for years. Where was Posey on 2 years ago Miami team.. ?! That team sucked - and Posey was benched for conditioning failure.

Pete

On the other hand, Wade has said something along the lines of that Posey was a key to the Heat's championship and that not bringing him back was a huge mistake.  It really goes both ways.

Objectively, the way I see it is that we have a possibility of two different players.  The first, Maggette, is a guy who is a proven scorer who can create his own shot and get ot the line and also has at least a good outside shooting touch.  The downside to Maggette is that (at least so far) he has been a poor defender (see Hollenger's evaluation on ESPN for support) and we do not know how his "head" is for fitting in with the Celtics system on either end of the Court.  On the other hand, Posey is a proven winner, tough-minded, fits with the Celtics system and locker-room, and is above-average in his versatility and defense.  On the negative side, Posey is limited offensively as he does not often create his own shot and really is limited to being a weak side spot-up shooter.

Contract issues being a non-issue, I favor Posey in this debate FOR THIS TEAM.  One poster wrote "if it ain't broke...."  I agree.  We won last year and Posey was an integral part.  We should bring him back.  I will conceded that Maggette's skills have considerable up-side over Posey, but with that concession comes the stark realization that Maggette might not work out, might not fit in the locker room, and might hurt the Celtics defense.  I don't know enough to assign percentages to these possibilities and, if the Celtics were not the best team in the league last year, I might feel differently.  However, we were the best team, we got the formula right last year, and I would be risk-adverse when it comes to making decisions that mess with the team's core.  In other words, I would not take the Maggette risk if given a chance because we know what we had last year worked really well.

Having said all that, there are also contract issues.  Were Posey unwilling to accept less than 5 years, and were Maggette willing to accept a one year deal with a team option, Posey is then introducing significant risk in years 4 and 5 of his contract.  That makes a swing back to Maggette reasonable, although it would be a tough call.  Are we winning now or risking or win now philosophy to look to the future as well?

[Bankshot]

If we signed him - you would be ticked off for years. Where was Posey on 2 years ago Miami team.. ?! That team sucked - and Posey was benched for conditioning failure.

Pete

On the other hand, Wade has said something along the lines of that Posey was a key to the Heat's championship and that not bringing him back was a huge mistake.  It really goes both ways.

Objectively, the way I see it is that we have a possibility of two different players.  The first, Maggette, is a guy who is a proven scorer who can create his own shot and get ot the line and also has at least a good outside shooting touch.  The downside to Maggette is that (at least so far) he has been a poor defender (see Hollenger's evaluation on ESPN for support) and we do not know how his "head" is for fitting in with the Celtics system on either end of the Court.  On the other hand, Posey is a proven winner, tough-minded, fits with the Celtics system and locker-room, and is above-average in his versatility and defense.  On the negative side, Posey is limited offensively as he does not often create his own shot and really is limited to being a weak side spot-up shooter.

Contract issues being a non-issue, I favor Posey in this debate FOR THIS TEAM.  One poster wrote "if it ain't broke...."  I agree.  We won last year and Posey was an integral part.  We should bring him back.  I will conceded that Maggette's skills have considerable up-side over Posey, but with that concession comes the stark realization that Maggette might not work out, might not fit in the locker room, and might hurt the Celtics defense.  I don't know enough to assign percentages to these possibilities and, if the Celtics were not the best team in the league last year, I might feel differently.  However, we were the best team, we got the formula right last year, and I would be risk-adverse when it comes to making decisions that mess with the team's core.  In other words, I would not take the Maggette risk if given a chance because we know what we had last year worked really well.

Having said all that, there are also contract issues.  Were Posey unwilling to accept less than 5 years, and were Maggette willing to accept a one year deal with a team option, Posey is then introducing significant risk in years 4 and 5 of his contract.  That makes a swing back to Maggette reasonable, although it would be a tough call.  Are we winning now or risking or win now philosophy to look to the future as well?

Good post, BCelts.

Bring back Posey!

[Jon]

Having said all that, there are also contract issues.  Were Posey unwilling to accept less than 5 years, and were Maggette willing to accept a one year deal with a team option, Posey is then introducing significant risk in years 4 and 5 of his contract.  That makes a swing back to Maggette reasonable, although it would be a tough call.  Are we winning now or risking or win now philosophy to look to the future as well?

While I certainly hope Ainge is looking toward the future to some extent, I hope his focus is on the here and now.  If Ainge thinks that Maggette can be as productive as Posey, I guess I'll yield to the expertise of Danny.  However, I hope the idea of where each will be in 3-4 years isn't playing into his mind.  I'll take Posey being useless the last couple years of his deal if it means the C's nab 1-2 more titles that they wouldn't have without him.

I know it sounds crazy to talk about a role player like that, but titles are often decided by a couple points here and a couple points there (or less).  Any downgrade to this team could mean no repeat.  While I'll admit that this is a bit of an exaggeration, you could make the argument that had this team not signed P.J. Brown, they wouldn't have made it out of the second round. 

[celts55]

I'm way too lazy to read 17 pages so maybe this has already been pointed out, but who says Maggette can't play D? He's young, athletic, and seems to have some BB IQ. Let's face it. the West and The Clippers and not known for defense. From what I saw last year, wost everyone played better defense on the Celtics. I can't say if it's Garnett, coaching, or whatever, but I saw Ray Allen playing his butt off on D and many people said he didn't play any. Same with Pierce, who pretty much shut down Bryant, so maybe he just needs a change in team. I personally thought the team needed a scorer off the bench. If Posey was getting 25-30 minutes off the bench, I don't see why Meggette couldn't. I like Posey and will be happy if he resigns, but if not I would be okay with Maggette. I think he might even be an inprovement, as they wouldn't always need to have one of the "big 3" on the floor for scoring.

[Bankshot]

I'm way too lazy to read 17 pages so maybe this has already been pointed out, but who says Maggette can't play D? He's young, athletic, and seems to have some BB IQ. Let's face it. the West and The Clippers and not known for defense. From what I saw last year, wost everyone played better defense on the Celtics. I can't say if it's Garnett, coaching, or whatever, but I saw Ray Allen playing his butt off on D and many people said he didn't play any. Same with Pierce, who pretty much shut down Bryant, so maybe he just needs a change in team. I personally thought the team needed a scorer off the bench. If Posey was getting 25-30 minutes off the bench, I don't see why Meggette couldn't. I like Posey and will be happy if he resigns, but if not I would be okay with Maggette. I think he might even be an inprovement, as they wouldn't always need to have one of the "big 3" on the floor for scoring.

Well Ricky Davis is athletic enough to be an excellent defender too, but he's not.  Maggette "should" be able to play defense, but doesn't mean he will.  But we do know that Posey can play defense.

[celts55]

I'm way too lazy to read 17 pages so maybe this has already been pointed out, but who says Maggette can't play D? He's young, athletic, and seems to have some BB IQ. Let's face it. the West and The Clippers and not known for defense. From what I saw last year, wost everyone played better defense on the Celtics. I can't say if it's Garnett, coaching, or whatever, but I saw Ray Allen playing his butt off on D and many people said he didn't play any. Same with Pierce, who pretty much shut down Bryant, so maybe he just needs a change in team. I personally thought the team needed a scorer off the bench. If Posey was getting 25-30 minutes off the bench, I don't see why Meggette couldn't. I like Posey and will be happy if he resigns, but if not I would be okay with Maggette. I think he might even be an inprovement, as they wouldn't always need to have one of the "big 3" on the floor for scoring.

Well Ricky Davis is athletic enough to be an excellent defender too, but he's not.  Maggette "should" be able to play defense, but doesn't mean he will.  But we do know that Posey can play defense.

I didn't say he would be, I said he could be. I said I like Posey and would prefer he return, but if not Maggette might be a good option. BTW, who knows, maybe Ricky Davis would be a better defender if he was on the Celtics now, not back a few yaers ago, when no one on the team played any.