Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston

[P2]

Edit.

[heyvik]

to me it seems like a moot point - Maggette with a 5 yr contract will be your key to the Celtics becoming a dynasty. With the signing of Corey, the Celtics can choose to shop Ray Allen when his contract is near up, near the deadline. Maggette will then, be put into the a starters role, with Pierce, Rondo, Perk and KG.
As much as I love Posey, i don't see him becoming a starter on the C's. He's a great player, with a great defensive skillset, but I think he lacks offensive, doesn't slash, dribble & drive and is athletic.
signing Maggette makes sense for the max 4-5 yrs, but please don't do that for Posey. i think in the 3rd - 4th year, we will see great decline from Posey.

[Jon]

I think just looking at Posey as defense vs. Maggette as offense is really ignoring the whole argument.  I think we also have to look at both players from an offensive perspective.  I think if you really consider this from a basketball perspective, rather than from a stats perspective, you'll see that Posey is the better fit not only defensively, but also offensively. 

The biggest example of why this is so is what we saw play out between Eddie House and Sam Cassell in the playoffs.  From a talent perspective, Cassell is vastly more talented than House.  He has a better handle, can create his offense better, and knows the little tricks of the trade to get to the line.  House on the other hand--offensively speaking--only beats out Cassell with his shooting ability.  Why then did House generally "outplay" Cassell throughout the playoffs? 

Quite frankly, the Celtics' offense didn't need all those extra things Cassell could do.  In fact, they were counterproductive.  And they'll need those things from Maggette even less. 

As flawed as Cassell was, his strengths over House did occasionally help, and probably would've helped had he played better.  But the two reasons they mattered--the fact that he was a point guard and the fact that he was playing limited minutes--don't apply to Maggette.  Cassell's skill set was important because he was a point guard and needed to handle the ball.  That doesn't apply to Maggette, who will more than likely be playing on the weakside, yielding to the Big Three.  Furthermore, most of Cassell's minutes usually came in the second quarter with either entirely a bench lineup or with one member of the Big Three.  While I don't approve of the way he did it, at least in theory, he was supposed to be creating some of his own offense.  While Maggette might would get opportunities like these, since he'll be playing more than the 10 or so minutes Cassell did, he'll have to play most of his minutes with 2-3 members of the Big Three.  And he won't have an opportunity to create much of his own offense. 

I think a lot of people who think Maggette will so seamlessly fit in offensively didn't closely watch what Ray Allen did this season.  He probably made the biggest adjustment of the Big Three to come here.  While all three of our stars gave up shots, he gave up more of a central role in plays, instead frequently becoming a weakside spot up shooter.  And he struggled with that role at times.  In his career he was used to being a central player in the offense, not sitting on the perimeter waiting for someone to kick out a pass for an open three. 

My question is, if Ray Allen-arguably the best shooter in the league and a better player than Maggette--is going to struggle with this, what is Corey Maggette--an historically mediocre shooter--going to do in this role? 

James Posey, on the other hand, has thrived in the role of weakside knock down shooter.  He doesn't need to get plays run for him to make a difference.  Furthermore, it's not just about man to man defense with him.  I'd agree that in the playoffs Pierce and Allen probably both outplayed him in that department.  But he's a phenomenal team defender who has a knack for the big shot, the big stop, or the big rebound. 

Could Maggette come here, change his game, and prove me wrong?  Sure.  But I don't think there's any reason to believe he can do it besides the argument that he simply could.  He's used to being a central part of the offense.  I find it a little tough to believe that he's going to give up starting, money, shots, and the way he plays in general without something going wrong.  For all the credit the Big Three get, none of them gave up starting or any cash, and in my opinion, Allen was the only one who significantly changed his game.

 

[sk7326]

1. Cassell was a good signing that did not work.  It was not for lack of skill mix.  It was that his shot failed him.  Also, perhaps Cassell's pick and roll style was not well served coming late into a season.  He required too much of the offense to change.  If they brought him back this season, I actually remain optimistic with a full camp, he'd be the backup we expected.  That said, it is not a priority position ... backup PGs are not hard to find, and that includes Eddie House.

2. If Posey asks for a 5 year deal at full mid-level prices, this is an unambiguously bad contract.  Posey will be 37 at the end of it, and is productivity is only useful when he is plugged into a contender.  You give that sort of commitment to a core-like guy.  I'd be much more comfortable giving years to Maggette.  He is a high volume scorer, but he does it in a very efficient way (shoots well, gets to the line a TON) -- he is not a ball hog.

=================

Either way, you have to look at the future contracts strategically.  The Cs right now have exactly ONE player under contract for the 2012 season -- Garnett.  Pierce's deal runs out in 2011.  As a result, unless you are looking at a guy to replace Ray Allen -- a guy who has to be THAT good -- the Celtics should not be offering ANY contract to ANY player that expires before Pierce's does. 

This way, if Pierce retires, the Celtics have oodles and oodles of cap room to find Kevin Garnett another running mate.  They can rebuild on the fly and still be at least a pseudo contender.  The problem with winning a title is that every "role player", who is so important to the special chemistry of the team, starts to seem like he should be paid like a core player.  Danny's challenge is to not fall in love the way that we as fans do, and I feel confident he is not the oversentimental type.

[BballTim]

Ok, some food for thought:

Premise: Maggette coming off the bench and taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. It's reasonable to assume that happened 3 times during his career: 02/03; 05/06; 06/07.

Maggette scored 16.8 ppg, 17.8 ppg and 16.9 ppg in each of those seasons.

Maggette took 17.5, 18.2, 17.7 of his team possessions per game in each of those seasons [(FGA+FTA/2+TO)/G]. He played between 29 and 31 mpg in those seasons.

So, during his career, and under these conditions, Maggette scores 17 ppg taking 18 possesions per game (approximation). This translates into a offensive efficiency of 94.44 points per 100 possessions.

Last season, with Posey as their 6th man, the Boston Celtics scored 107.4 points per 100 possessions.

So, what you want to do is to take 18 possessions that last season valued 19.3 points delivering them to a player that historically uses that same amount of possessions to score 17 points, arguing that this will make up for his lack of defense. There's more to discuss about this, but I'll leave it here for now. Very problematic for me is that Maggette is only efficient playing in the same position of our best offensive player. I think this is being wildly disregarded.

  Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but you're playing a kind of shell game here. You're comparing Maggette's offensive efficiency not with Posey's, but with the team when Posey is playing (which is higher than Posey's efficiency). It seems to make sense, but when you combine it with your next post on the subject:

"Well, I didn't make any kind of analysis between Posey and Maggette. Here's some more raw data to thing about: What was the improvement of GPA eFG% after moving from their previous lousy teams (well, Pierce didn't actually move, but you get the idea) to the best team in the NBA:

Pierce
06/07 - .502
07/08 - .529     

Garnett
06/07 - .480   
07/08 - .539

Allen
06/07 - .509
07/08 - .532         

Will Maggette's efficiency raise? I'm quiet sure it will - even though he's going to be in a different situation that the 3 previous players. But that's not the issue here. The issue is: how much Maggette's higher efficiency will help the Celtics improving their team offensive efficiency? From whom will Maggette get his possessions? He won't get them from Garnett, Perkins, Powe and Rondo, I can assure you. He'll get them primarily from Pierce, Posey and, to less extent Ray Allen."

  A few things jump out from this paragraph: A) that you'd expect Maggette's efficiency to increase, and B) that he'll get his shots from Pierce, Posey and, to less extent Ray Allen. Last year Maggette was about as efficent as Posey the year before he joined the Celts and a little more efficient that Paul or Ray were in 06-07. So getting him shots would likely make us slightly more efficient. Also, while Maggette is more efficient offensively at sf than sg, he seems to be better defensively at sg than at sf (in fact, his numbers before this year weren't that bad on the defensive side).

  Again, feel free to point out any mistakes or incorrect assumptions that you think I'm making.

[vjcsmoke]

Maggette seems to be a pretty good shooter to me if the stats don't deceive me.  45% from FG 33% from 3PT and 82% FT.
The nice thing is that he has a knack for getting to the free throw line and he'll knock down most of them when he gets there.
With a player like Maggette, you can easily have Pierce or Allen rest with not all that much dropoff.
That way Pierce doesn't have to 'carry' the team as much as he sometimes did in the playoffs where he scored like 40+ points and played 48 minutes.

Adding Maggette to the team would be a very nice addition.  The only adjustment will be finding him minutes.
Posey is a differenty type of player.  He is defense first with a nice long range shot.
Maggette can create his own shots and get points going to the basket.

Would like to have both players actually, but that is getting a little greedy.  It all depends on if Posey will sign or not.
Look at the type of players the Celtics just drafted - Giddens and Walker.  Don't they sorta remind you of Maggette?  Really athletic wing type players?

[Jon]

Maggette seems to be a pretty good shooter to me if the stats don't deceive me.  45% from FG 33% from 3PT and 82% FT.
The nice thing is that he has a knack for getting to the free throw line and he'll knock down most of them when he gets there.
With a player like Maggette, you can easily have Pierce or Allen rest with not all that much dropoff.
That way Pierce doesn't have to 'carry' the team as much as he sometimes did in the playoffs where he scored like 40+ points and played 48 minutes.

Adding Maggette to the team would be a very nice addition.  The only adjustment will be finding him minutes.
Posey is a differenty type of player.  He is defense first with a nice long range shot.
Maggette can create his own shots and get points going to the basket.

My big question is how often Maggette's going to be given the opportunity to create his own shot?  If he's going to play 30+ minutes per game, most of that time is going to be spent with members of the Big Three.  He's going to defer to them. If that's the case, he's going to be asked to be a knockdown jump shooter.  I question whether he can do that.  Ray Allen struggled to adjust to that role last year, and he's twice the player Maggette is, and ten times the shooter. 

I think the biggest example of how this could go wrong is the 2003-2004 Lakers and Gary Payton.  Payton, a Hall of Fame point guard, still mostly in his prime, couldn't fit into the Lakers offense because the point guard was just a jump shooter in Jackson's triangle offense.  Thus, his ability to "create his own shot" was largely rendered useless. 

While it's not a guarantee this happens to Maggette, I could see this happening to him in our system. 

[timepiece33]

IMO, Maggette would be a great addition for this team AND would fit fine.  The question is whether it is a viable possibility.   The S/T with Detroit and Golden State mentioned earlier makes a ton of sense.   

[fan33]

Maggette seems to be a pretty good shooter to me if the stats don't deceive me.  45% from FG 33% from 3PT and 82% FT.
The nice thing is that he has a knack for getting to the free throw line and he'll knock down most of them when he gets there.
With a player like Maggette, you can easily have Pierce or Allen rest with not all that much dropoff.
That way Pierce doesn't have to 'carry' the team as much as he sometimes did in the playoffs where he scored like 40+ points and played 48 minutes.

Adding Maggette to the team would be a very nice addition.  The only adjustment will be finding him minutes.
Posey is a differenty type of player.  He is defense first with a nice long range shot.
Maggette can create his own shots and get points going to the basket.

My big question is how often Maggette's going to be given the opportunity to create his own shot?  If he's going to play 30+ minutes per game, most of that time is going to be spent with members of the Big Three.  He's going to defer to them. If that's the case, he's going to be asked to be a knockdown jump shooter.  I question whether he can do that.  Ray Allen struggled to adjust to that role last year, and he's twice the player Maggette is, and ten times the shooter. 

I think the biggest example of how this could go wrong is the 2003-2004 Lakers and Gary Payton.  Payton, a Hall of Fame point guard, still mostly in his prime, couldn't fit into the Lakers offense because the point guard was just a jump shooter in Jackson's triangle offense.  Thus, his ability to "create his own shot" was largely rendered useless. 

While it's not a guarantee this happens to Maggette, I could see this happening to him in our system. 

I believe Mags would do great here, and may sign a 2yr deal full MLE, to win his rings then truely upgraded his marketability still in his prime for a last big contract.

There were many times last year where his coming off the bench and scoring 16 points mostly slashing to the rim and even kicking back out would have been extremely proficient and productive getting opponents into foul trouble individually and team penalty situations. I'm sure room would be made for him. On defence in our scheme, I don't think he would need to be hidden and in fact I think he would buy in to putting forth the prerequsit effort required while rotating well with quickness and athleticisim enough so as to be near a wash with Posey in this regard. Although Posey is a hardnosed defender full of little veteran tricks and 'bowes as well as being more willing to take charges, amounting to a drop off in team defensive stats from last year, granted.

I really would like to have our kids play against him and learn by imitation and therefore believe he would be a quality upgrade to the team in practice and on the floor at game time. I really do think this team could start putting up final scores more along the lines of blowouts more often while still mantaining near lock down defensive efforts at crucial times in tighter games. Remember having another bonified scorer for teams to try to defensively match will open up our other scorers, albeit differently than the three point shootin and floor spread that Posey brought productively.
I really would like to have this team move away from being overly dependent upon jumpshootin and even if that's at the cost of slipping in team defensive ranking, which is still yet to be proven...

Passing and getting the ball to the open man by swinging it, I believe could really be improved with this signing. Yep, makes sense @ 2 years, for Mags too

I believe more of a "Take It To The Rim" mentality and aggresiveness is what this signing would be all about, as well as for the kids to follow in those foot steps by imitation set by Paul and Mags!!!

<crosses fingers> 

[Jon]

Maggette seems to be a pretty good shooter to me if the stats don't deceive me.  45% from FG 33% from 3PT and 82% FT.
The nice thing is that he has a knack for getting to the free throw line and he'll knock down most of them when he gets there.
With a player like Maggette, you can easily have Pierce or Allen rest with not all that much dropoff.
That way Pierce doesn't have to 'carry' the team as much as he sometimes did in the playoffs where he scored like 40+ points and played 48 minutes.

Adding Maggette to the team would be a very nice addition.  The only adjustment will be finding him minutes.
Posey is a differenty type of player.  He is defense first with a nice long range shot.
Maggette can create his own shots and get points going to the basket.

My big question is how often Maggette's going to be given the opportunity to create his own shot?  If he's going to play 30+ minutes per game, most of that time is going to be spent with members of the Big Three.  He's going to defer to them. If that's the case, he's going to be asked to be a knockdown jump shooter.  I question whether he can do that.  Ray Allen struggled to adjust to that role last year, and he's twice the player Maggette is, and ten times the shooter. 

I think the biggest example of how this could go wrong is the 2003-2004 Lakers and Gary Payton.  Payton, a Hall of Fame point guard, still mostly in his prime, couldn't fit into the Lakers offense because the point guard was just a jump shooter in Jackson's triangle offense.  Thus, his ability to "create his own shot" was largely rendered useless. 

While it's not a guarantee this happens to Maggette, I could see this happening to him in our system. 

I believe Mags would do great here, and may sign a 2yr deal full MLE, to win his rings then truely upgraded his marketability still in his prime for a last big contract.

There were many times last year where his coming off the bench and scoring 16 points mostly slashing to the rim and even kicking back out would have been extremely proficient and productive getting opponents into foul trouble individually and team penalty situations. I'm sure room would be made for him. On defence in our scheme, I don't think he would need to be hidden and in fact I think he would buy in to putting forth the prerequsit effort required while rotating well with quickness and athleticisim enough so as to be near a wash with Posey in this regard. Although Posey is a hardnosed defender full of little veteran tricks and 'bowes as well as being more willing to take charges, amounting to a drop off in team defensive stats from last year, granted.

I really would like to have our kids play against him and learn by imitation and therefore believe he would be a quality upgrade to the team in practice and on the floor at game time. I really do think this team could start putting up final scores more along the lines of blowouts more often while still mantaining near lock down defensive efforts at crucial times in tighter games. Remember having another bonified scorer for teams to try to defensively match will open up our other scorers, albeit differently than the three point shootin and floor spread that Posey brought productively.
I really would like to have this team move away from being overly dependent upon jumpshootin and even if that's at the cost of slipping in team defensive ranking, which is still yet to be proven...

Passing and getting the ball to the open man by swinging it, I believe could really be improved with this signing. Yep, makes sense @ 2 years, for Mags too

I believe more of a "Take It To The Rim" mentality and aggresiveness is what this signing would be all about, as well as for the kids to follow in those foot steps by imitation set by Paul and Mags!!!

<crosses fingers> 

Keep in mind that there are only so many possessions in an NBA game.  Given that Pierce averaged 19 ppg, KG 18 ppg, and Allen 17 ppg, I have a hard time believing that Corey Maggette is going to come in and put up 16 ppg, particularly when an improved Rondo should demand more shots. 

On top of all of that, I question how he fits in with the Big Three plus Rondo.  The Big Three have all already sacrificed their stats, having them drop significantly below their career averages.  Maggette's points more than likely are going to mean less points for them.  And given the fact that Rondo's going to want more shots next year, there's a possibility for internal strife.  While I'm sure they all want more rings, their willingness to make big sacrifices may have lessened.  It's one thing to average in the upper teens on a winning team.  On the other hand, I'm not sure how guys like Pierce and Allen are going to feel if their ppg drop to 15 or below. 

And that's not even taking into account my earlier argument.  Even if Maggette is going to get 12-14 shots per game (which I think is unlikely), I still say they're going to come on kickouts and other weakside action.  That's not the type of role that Maggette is used to having.  Can he adjust to that as a player?  Can he accept not only a salary less than he wants, a bench role, less points, and less touches and still be content?  I don't know.  That's not nearly as much as the Big Three had to sacrifice.

Like I said before, he might work out.  I just think that people who think this is definitely going to be a homerun or an improvement over Posey aren't thinking things out entirely from a realistic standpoint. 

[Sweet17]

Like I said before, he might work out.  I just think that people who think this is definitely going to be a homerun or an improvement over Posey aren't thinking things out entirely from a realistic standpoint.

Please. Corey is a much better player then Posey. Posey is a nice roleplayer and a passable starter. Corey is a GOOD NBA starter. Getting Corey would be huge for the C's. Unfortunately he is going to the Spurs so I won't be able to say "I told you so" for a whole season. Corey can do nearly everything Posey can - and a bunch of stuff he can't. Corey can hit open 3s, he can defend, rebound, slash. It's like getting a slighty inferior PP - for the MLE.

Remember Posey is the guy Riley benched because he lacked conditioning in his non-contract year. Posey is a guy no other GM (Last Year) thought was worth 3.5 million. Yes a rather smart signing he was but Danny. With a one year deal he wanted to "prove" everyone wrong. He did that - and he will now get paid. We shouldn't be the ones paying him though. He is on the wrong side of thirty and won't play hard again until his contract runs out - if ever.

Pete

[Jon]

Like I said before, he might work out.  I just think that people who think this is definitely going to be a homerun or an improvement over Posey aren't thinking things out entirely from a realistic standpoint.

Please. Corey is a much better player then Posey. Posey is a nice roleplayer and a passable starter. Corey is a GOOD NBA starter. Getting Corey would be huge for the C's. Unfortunately he is going to the Spurs so I won't be able to say "I told you so" for a whole season. Corey can do nearly everything Posey can - and a bunch of stuff he can't. Corey can hit open 3s, he can defend, rebound, slash. It's like getting a slighty inferior PP - for the MLE.

Remember Posey is the guy Riley benched because he lacked conditioning in his non-contract year. Posey is a guy no other GM (Last Year) thought was worth 3.5 million. Yes a rather smart signing he was but Danny. With a one year deal he wanted to "prove" everyone wrong. He did that - and he will now get paid. We shouldn't be the ones paying him though. He is on the wrong side of thirty and won't play hard again until his contract runs out - if ever.

Pete

If throwing a bunch of great scorers together was all it took to win a title, teams like this year's Lakers, and the Mavs and Suns of the past few years would have won some titles. 

[YaBoySon]

I personally don't think there's any comparison between Pose and Mags. I like Maggette's game, but he's no Posey. First and foremost Posey's a proven winner. He knows he's not a focal point of the offense, and he's one of the few chosen players left in the NBA that pride themselves on defense night in and night out. Intangibles. Not to mention ya boy is ice cold in the clutch. Maggette will be looking for ways to score and that's not what won us our title, not from the roster spot we're speaking of. We have enough fire power, I want the defensive pride and basketball savviness, not the flashy numbers. Will Mags come here and just all of a sudden commit to defense on the Posey level? Not even in his realm.

It ain't broke....

[Steve Weinman]

I personally don't think there's any comparison between Pose and Mags. I like Maggette's game, but he's no Posey. First and foremost Posey's a proven winner. He knows he's not a focal point of the offense, and he's one of the few chosen players left in the NBA that pride themselves on defense night in and night out. Intangibles. Not to mention ya boy is ice cold in the clutch. Maggette will be looking for ways to score and that's not what won us our title, not from the roster spot we're speaking of. We have enough fire power, I want the defensive pride and basketball savviness, not the flashy numbers. Will Mags come here and just all of a sudden commit to defense on the Posey level? Not even in his realm.

It ain't broke....

Welcome aboard, YBS.  Nice first post, so here's to your arrival with an inaugural Tommy Point.  Looking forward to seeing you around the site.

-sw

[YaBoySon]

First blog post ever.  This is what my life has been missing....