Author Topic: Vin Baker: A sad story  (Read 13419 times)

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Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2008, 12:25:47 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Last piece of advice -- Don't ever own a restaurant. 

....If you don't know what you're doing.

Extremely tough industry thats only getting more difficult but my family has been able to pull it off for 30 years (same restaurant) and we're still going strong.


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Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2008, 12:28:34 AM »

Offline bbc3341

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Actually, it is a disease, and speaking as one whose family has been ravaged and all but destroyed by substance abuse, this problem will never improve in this country until intolerance and a lack of understanding is squelched once-and-for-all. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for intolerance, and it makes me cringe when I see people outraged over racial bias, who turn right around and exhibit the same kind of prejudice towards those with substance abuse problems, or any kind of addiction. That "holier-than-thou" attitude is one of the main reasons this problem is as bad as it is in the first place. I find it hard to fathom that praise is showered on people who have no sympathy for other humans in desperate need of help and understanding. That's the truly saddest part of this story. I pray there's someone in Vin's life who cares enough about him to help him find the answers he needs to turn his life around.

As a recovering alcoholic, I understand where you're coming from, but some of the posts here have been from people who've seen loved ones suffer from alcoholism, as have you, and I don't view them as similar to  those who are racially biased or prejudiced. It is hard for me to be critical of them because I've seen how my actions have hurt those closest to me and I sympathize with their feelings.

You are right about it being a disease in that the American Medical Association categorizes it as such...
Now, on to 18...

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2008, 12:28:49 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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Last piece of advice -- Don't ever own a restaurant. 

....If you don't know what you're doing.

Extremely tough industry thats only getting more difficult but my family has been able to pull it off for 30 years (same restaurant) and we're still going strong.

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2008, 12:31:44 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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Last piece of advice -- Don't ever own a restaurant. 

....If you don't know what you're doing.

Extremely tough industry thats only getting more difficult but my family has been able to pull it off for 30 years (same restaurant) and we're still going strong.

Congrats on your family being the one out of 50 that can last 30 years (Or the one out of ten that can last five years, for that matter).  I wonder if someone with millions of dollars will have the wherewithal to bring it every single day like a successful restaurant demands (or will be able to hire people who will, without robbing them blind)

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2008, 12:38:57 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Last piece of advice -- Don't ever own a restaurant. 

....If you don't know what you're doing.

Extremely tough industry thats only getting more difficult but my family has been able to pull it off for 30 years (same restaurant) and we're still going strong.

Congrats on your family being the one out of 50 that can last 30 years (Or the one out of ten that can last five years, for that matter).  I wonder if someone with millions of dollars will have the wherewithal to bring it every single day like a successful restaurant demands (or will be able to hire people who will, without robbing them blind)

It's extremely difficult and my father will be the first one to tell you that.  The first five years are incredibly tough.  Lots of initial costs involving overhead to overcome that people just don't factor.  Add on top of that, vendors and it becomes even more difficult and costly.

Also, the service industry has overgone a drastic change of direction since we started in the late '70s and it is much more difficult today to get something going and be able to maintain it.

The biggest problem that people face is that they don't realize the time, commitment, and money it takes to get it profitable and sustainable.  Luck, location, and good employees certainly help matters.


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Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2008, 12:51:40 AM »

Offline Bahku

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Actually, it is a disease, and speaking as one whose family has been ravaged and all but destroyed by substance abuse, this problem will never improve in this country until intolerance and a lack of understanding is squelched once-and-for-all. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for intolerance, and it makes me cringe when I see people outraged over racial bias, who turn right around and exhibit the same kind of prejudice towards those with substance abuse problems, or any kind of addiction. That "holier-than-thou" attitude is one of the main reasons this problem is as bad as it is in the first place. I find it hard to fathom that praise is showered on people who have no sympathy for other humans in desperate need of help and understanding. That's the truly saddest part of this story. I pray there's someone in Vin's life who cares enough about him to help him find the answers he needs to turn his life around.

As a recovering alcoholic, I understand where you're coming from, but some of the posts here have been from people who've seen loved ones suffer from alcoholism, as have you, and I don't view them as similar to  those who are racially biased or prejudiced. It is hard for me to be critical of them because I've seen how my actions have hurt those closest to me and I sympathize with their feelings.

You are right about it being a disease in that the American Medical Association categorizes it as such...

All the more reason to have a greater sense of understanding, not less. This is a complicated, painful subject, but intolerance and lack of sympathy is why this problem is as large as it is. Trust me when I say that I've seen and dealt with this disease from every side, and in more depth than most, and as long as the "Oh, he's just a drunk" or "She's a lowly addict" or "They did it to themselves, so who cares?" attitudes continue, this will never get better. It is the same kind of bias - just as prejudice towards overweight and ugly people is the same kind of bias - and it goes just as deep and is perpetuated with even less sensitivity than racial and sexual bias is. Of course it hurts everyone associated, but that should be greater impetus to face this problem head-on and out-in-the-open once and for all, and not just perpetuate these feelings and attitudes that strive to create even more apathy, and look to sweep this problem under the carpet, or leave it for someone else to deal with. However you view this problem, whether you view it as a disease or not, these people need help and understanding, not apathy and callousness.
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Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2008, 01:34:14 AM »

Offline mustang

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Actually, it is a disease, and speaking as one whose family has been ravaged and all but destroyed by substance abuse, this problem will never improve in this country until intolerance and a lack of understanding is squelched once-and-for-all. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for intolerance, and it makes me cringe when I see people outraged over racial bias, who turn right around and exhibit the same kind of prejudice towards those with substance abuse problems, or any kind of addiction. That "holier-than-thou" attitude is one of the main reasons this problem is as bad as it is in the first place. I find it hard to fathom that praise is showered on people who have no sympathy for other humans in desperate need of help and understanding. That's the truly saddest part of this story. I pray there's someone in Vin's life who cares enough about him to help him find the answers he needs to turn his life around.

As a recovering alcoholic, I understand where you're coming from, but some of the posts here have been from people who've seen loved ones suffer from alcoholism, as have you, and I don't view them as similar to  those who are racially biased or prejudiced. It is hard for me to be critical of them because I've seen how my actions have hurt those closest to me and I sympathize with their feelings.

You are right about it being a disease in that the American Medical Association categorizes it as such...

All the more reason to have a greater sense of understanding, not less. This is a complicated, painful subject, but intolerance and lack of sympathy is why this problem is as large as it is. Trust me when I say that I've seen and dealt with this disease from every side, and in more depth than most, and as long as the "Oh, he's just a drunk" or "She's a lowly addict" or "They did it to themselves, so who cares?" attitudes continue, this will never get better. It is the same kind of bias - just as prejudice towards overweight and ugly people is the same kind of bias - and it goes just as deep and is perpetuated with even less sensitivity than racial and sexual bias is. Of course it hurts everyone associated, but that should be greater impetus to face this problem head-on and out-in-the-open once and for all, and not just perpetuate these feelings and attitudes that strive to create even more apathy, and look to sweep this problem under the carpet, or leave it for someone else to deal with. However you view this problem, whether you view it as a disease or not, these people need help and understanding, not apathy and callousness.

I don't think you and I (if you were directing your earlier post at mine) are as far off from each other on the issue as it may appear. I happen to also believe that the issue deserves sensitivity and understanding, and should be confronted as often and in as transparent a fashion as possible. I also agree that some people have a genetic predisposition to addiction, and sympathize with their struggles (I've experienced this as a family member and friend, as I'm sure you have).

But I don't think it is a disease, because I think that accountability is as important as tolerance. There are just too many convenient associations with the word disease, and if the extreme tough love and ignorance approach failed in the past, well, the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction these days--"I/He/She have/has a disease" becomes slang for "It's not at all my/his/her fault." Drug/alcohol addiction is as much of a disease as nymphomania (maybe even less so)--they may be conditions, but calling them diseases takes a little bit too much of the free will out of the equation, and takes something fundamental away from everyone from cancer patients to those who made the admirable and difficult decision to stop using, own up to their mistakes, rebuild their relationships and lives, and choose to keep themselves together.

I think I would have less of a problem calling it a disease if it was generally only destructive for the user. Just my opinion, and I respect yours.

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2008, 01:41:19 AM »

Offline ACF

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In my case, I would've loved to see
my father be like everyone else.
He had to stop working when he was
like 30 years old (young!).
His back was just shot, he couldn't
do it anymore.
He'd been working since the age of 14
so he really didn't know anything else.
I think it really stuck in his craw.
Eventually, he drank every day, hardly
ever was he sober.
It totally ruined my parent's marriage.
And in turn, that got him drinking even
more. Another defeat and one that stuck
with for the rest of his life. My dad was
from a generation that hardly ever spoke
of feelings. I'm sure that could've helped
him to the point of not wanting to forget
and thus drowning his sorrows via drink.

I could've easily said "Screw him" and not
care about him. Who would blame me?
But you know what?
He was my father and on the good days he
taught me stuff that will be with me until
the day I die. One thing I learned is this:
If you have a problem, go see somebody.
Anybody. It just might help you.

One final thing, a little poem I heard somewhere:
(my translation from Danish)

Do not envy others their happiness
For you do not know their sorrows

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2008, 02:02:04 AM »

Offline Bahku

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Actually, it is a disease, and speaking as one whose family has been ravaged and all but destroyed by substance abuse, this problem will never improve in this country until intolerance and a lack of understanding is squelched once-and-for-all. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for intolerance, and it makes me cringe when I see people outraged over racial bias, who turn right around and exhibit the same kind of prejudice towards those with substance abuse problems, or any kind of addiction. That "holier-than-thou" attitude is one of the main reasons this problem is as bad as it is in the first place. I find it hard to fathom that praise is showered on people who have no sympathy for other humans in desperate need of help and understanding. That's the truly saddest part of this story. I pray there's someone in Vin's life who cares enough about him to help him find the answers he needs to turn his life around.

As a recovering alcoholic, I understand where you're coming from, but some of the posts here have been from people who've seen loved ones suffer from alcoholism, as have you, and I don't view them as similar to  those who are racially biased or prejudiced. It is hard for me to be critical of them because I've seen how my actions have hurt those closest to me and I sympathize with their feelings.

You are right about it being a disease in that the American Medical Association categorizes it as such...

All the more reason to have a greater sense of understanding, not less. This is a complicated, painful subject, but intolerance and lack of sympathy is why this problem is as large as it is. Trust me when I say that I've seen and dealt with this disease from every side, and in more depth than most, and as long as the "Oh, he's just a drunk" or "She's a lowly addict" or "They did it to themselves, so who cares?" attitudes continue, this will never get better. It is the same kind of bias - just as prejudice towards overweight and ugly people is the same kind of bias - and it goes just as deep and is perpetuated with even less sensitivity than racial and sexual bias is. Of course it hurts everyone associated, but that should be greater impetus to face this problem head-on and out-in-the-open once and for all, and not just perpetuate these feelings and attitudes that strive to create even more apathy, and look to sweep this problem under the carpet, or leave it for someone else to deal with. However you view this problem, whether you view it as a disease or not, these people need help and understanding, not apathy and callousness.

I don't think you and I (if you were directing your earlier post at mine) are as far off from each other on the issue as it may appear. I happen to also believe that the issue deserves sensitivity and understanding, and should be confronted as often and in as transparent a fashion as possible. I also agree that some people have a genetic predisposition to addiction, and sympathize with their struggles (I've experienced this as a family member and friend, as I'm sure you have).

But I don't think it is a disease, because I think that accountability is as important as tolerance. There are just too many convenient associations with the word disease, and if the extreme tough love and ignorance approach failed in the past, well, the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction these days--"I/He/She have/has a disease" becomes slang for "It's not at all my/his/her fault." Drug/alcohol addiction is as much of a disease as nymphomania (maybe even less so)--they may be conditions, but calling them diseases takes a little bit too much of the free will out of the equation, and takes something fundamental away from everyone from cancer patients to those who made the admirable and difficult decision to stop using, own up to their mistakes, rebuild their relationships and lives, and choose to keep themselves together.

I think I would have less of a problem calling it a disease if it was generally only destructive for the user. Just my opinion, and I respect yours.


I call it a disease because it is a disease. Just like depression and bipolar disorder and schizophrenia and OCD, it takes place because of an inbalance of chemicals in the brain, not because someone "decides" to become an alcoholic or drug addict, or because they just don't have the "will" to stop.

Many people drink alcohol and take drugs, but don't become addicted because they're not chemically or genetically predisposed to the disease. I don't like to say this here much, but among other things, I'm a physician, and have dealt with this on not just a personal level, but a professional level as well.

Substance abuse or addiction of any kind is a disease, by the standards of any other disease, and until that's accepted as the norm, the same inadequacies in treatment and understanding will continue.

By the way, I do respect your opinion, and know whereof you speak ... and I wasn't directing my reply at you specifically, but at the general lack of understanding that I see running through this thread. TP for the good discussion, however, on a very difficult topic.
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Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2008, 02:05:06 AM »

Offline ACF

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My man Bahku steps up again.
Thanks, buddy and a TP for you.

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2008, 02:07:18 AM »

Offline Bahku

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My man Bahku steps up again.
Thanks, buddy and a TP for you.

Back atcha, ACF ... we're on the same wavelength, Bud.
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* BAHKU MUSIC *

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2008, 03:07:52 AM »

Offline bbc3341

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Actually, it is a disease, and speaking as one whose family has been ravaged and all but destroyed by substance abuse, this problem will never improve in this country until intolerance and a lack of understanding is squelched once-and-for-all. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for intolerance, and it makes me cringe when I see people outraged over racial bias, who turn right around and exhibit the same kind of prejudice towards those with substance abuse problems, or any kind of addiction. That "holier-than-thou" attitude is one of the main reasons this problem is as bad as it is in the first place. I find it hard to fathom that praise is showered on people who have no sympathy for other humans in desperate need of help and understanding. That's the truly saddest part of this story. I pray there's someone in Vin's life who cares enough about him to help him find the answers he needs to turn his life around.

As a recovering alcoholic, I understand where you're coming from, but some of the posts here have been from people who've seen loved ones suffer from alcoholism, as have you, and I don't view them as similar to  those who are racially biased or prejudiced. It is hard for me to be critical of them because I've seen how my actions have hurt those closest to me and I sympathize with their feelings.

You are right about it being a disease in that the American Medical Association categorizes it as such...

All the more reason to have a greater sense of understanding, not less. This is a complicated, painful subject, but intolerance and lack of sympathy is why this problem is as large as it is. Trust me when I say that I've seen and dealt with this disease from every side, and in more depth than most, and as long as the "Oh, he's just a drunk" or "She's a lowly addict" or "They did it to themselves, so who cares?" attitudes continue, this will never get better. It is the same kind of bias - just as prejudice towards overweight and ugly people is the same kind of bias - and it goes just as deep and is perpetuated with even less sensitivity than racial and sexual bias is. Of course it hurts everyone associated, but that should be greater impetus to face this problem head-on and out-in-the-open once and for all, and not just perpetuate these feelings and attitudes that strive to create even more apathy, and look to sweep this problem under the carpet, or leave it for someone else to deal with. However you view this problem, whether you view it as a disease or not, these people need help and understanding, not apathy and callousness.

I know I've benefitted from people who were understanding and supportive. I think I'm just hesitant to address those who have a negative view of addicts or alcoholics as I am one...
Now, on to 18...

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2008, 05:06:34 AM »

Offline sosuede

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Boo effing hoo.  Only in America do we extend our empathy to people who make more in a day than you will in years.  Vin Baker wouldn't crap on you if you were on fire.

What I would give to have 90 million dollars. Heck, what I would give to have the Donald Trump-like pleasure of burning through 90 million dollars till it was all gone.  Yep, Vin had some good times, brothers; Vin saw some things you will never ever see in the Champagne Room of life.  Women, houses, cars, women, jets, women, and women.

Feel sorry for children in Darfur, someone you know with MS, people who were royally boned in the lottery of life, not some dude who never worked a real day in his life and insisted upon keeping his paycheck well after he was too drunk to earn it.

Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2008, 05:37:15 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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If the man likes to drink, what's the problem? It's his money, isn't it? It's not like he's in such bad company; great decision makers like Churchill and Ulysses S. Grant used to drink a lot, geniuses like Hemingway, Amis, Bacon, Beethoven, Burroughs or Poe always loved the booze and produced most of their legacy to mankind while drinking... I'm not assuming he's uncomfortable with his addiction just because he lost his house. Really sad was the way he played for us.

Well, I think it's pretty clear from an outside perspective that Vin's addiction isn't doing him any favors.  He went from a perpetual all-star and a member of Team USA to broke and out of the league.  This isn't a guy who just likes to binge drink on occasion, it's somebody whose life has been paralyzed by alcohol consumption / addiction.

Many of us have heard the phrase "functioning alcoholic".  That's not Vin. 

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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Re: Vin Baker: A sad story
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2008, 05:45:25 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Actually, it is a disease, and speaking as one whose family has been ravaged and all but destroyed by substance abuse, this problem will never improve in this country until intolerance and a lack of understanding is squelched once-and-for-all. Sorry, but I have no tolerance for intolerance, and it makes me cringe when I see people outraged over racial bias, who turn right around and exhibit the same kind of prejudice towards those with substance abuse problems, or any kind of addiction. That "holier-than-thou" attitude is one of the main reasons this problem is as bad as it is in the first place. I find it hard to fathom that praise is showered on people who have no sympathy for other humans in desperate need of help and understanding. That's the truly saddest part of this story. I pray there's someone in Vin's life who cares enough about him to help him find the answers he needs to turn his life around.

I think the tricky part is that many people equate "disease" with "no accountability".  I have some sympathy for alcoholics, in that they're genetically predisposed to develop a chemical dependency on alcohol, while many others will not.  What I don't have a lot of sympathy for is those people who develop an addiction, see the consequences its causing to people around them, and make absolutely no attempt to change. 

I understand that people will backslide, and that it's impossible for many people to make the decision to quit drinking "cold turkey".  However, to see somebody who had the means to get any sort of help he wanted, and chose not to, doesn't fill me with sympathy.  There are millions of alcoholics who will never be able to enter the detox facilities Vin had at his disposal, and he refused that.  There's got to be some accountability for that.


All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions