The score was 96-78 when Powe left the game with 5:56 left

[Jaycelt]

I agree.  Posey's defense has been at best mediocre this entire post season.
I honestly think he's playing up to close on guys that he should know have better speed.
He's gambling way too much.
Ray has done a very good job keeping Kobe in front of him and he's been getting a lot of help.
PP has done a very good job of bodying up to Kobe, cutting off his angles to the basket and being physical with him wihout fouling.
I've listened to Bob Ryan raving about Posey's defense against James and Bryant and I've wondered what games he's been watching.

[Vermont Green]

I read this whole thing and I am not surprised by the "why did they take Powe out" and "what was Doc thinking" reactions but in my opinion it is just that, more of a reaction than an analysis.  Part of the reason that Leon was successful was that he surprised the Lakers.  They did not adjust their defense to take away what he was doing and they did not adjust their offense either.  By the time Doc took Leon out though, they had figured it out and I think the honeymoon was over.  Plus I think Leon was getting tired, missing shots, and committing fouls.  The Celtics had gotten what they were going to get out of Leon and it was time to sit him down.

Now in terms of the decision about replacing him with PJ or Posey (for example but in general big or small), I think what Doc was trying to do was put a team out there that could switch on all the screens to defend 3's better.  Perk was gimpy and PJ doesn't defend out high very well.  BBD actually has done pretty well on the team D rotations and is quicker than PJ but I don't know why Doc didn't try that.

To me, there is no reason that the team Doc put on the floor should have coughed up that lead.  Whether it was Posey or PJ or Scal, it was on the players to close it out.  Does anyone really think that one substitution would have produced a 15-20 point swing in 6 minutes or whatever it was?

I just hope the Celtics learn from this.  I am too old for all of this late night stress!

[RockinRyA]

while i still believe going big would be better at that point, i still think that small ball would have a chance if not for putting posey on kobe.. one thing i noticed is kobe torching posey whenever they are matched up.. i think when ray is out TA would be better cover for kobe

so it wouldve made mor sense to put posey on vlad and allow pp to guard vujacic and let ray handle kobe

[Bahku]

The title of this thread really says it all quite effectively. Nice choice, Doc ... take out the hottest guy on the floor ... how could the game possibly change momentum, right?!? (Hello, McFly ... anyone home?)

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

I cannot believe that there are still those Doc bashers here that want to blame everything that doesn't work perfectly on Doc.

1. One Paul Pierce admitted that the team and especially he was complacent and played as such once the lead got huge and the time was down to 8 minutes or so. He also mentioned playing not like they were but as if they were just waiting for the game to run out. If the players have this type of mentality on the floor, how is a Doc substitution of Ray Allen for Leon Powe the reason for the Laker comeback?

2. People here are so quick to blame Doc for whatever part of the game seems to be faltering. During the Cleveland and Detroit series Doc was an idiot because his offensive schemes sucked. But the Doc Bashers thanked heaven above for Coach Tom Thibodeau because at least he was there to save the day with his great defensive coaching. So obviously Doc Bashers believe when the defense works it's Coach T's responsibility. So why is Doc doing such a bad job when the reason for the Laker comeback was not the fact that the Celtics only scored 8 points in the 4th but the fact that the Lakers scored 41 points in the 4th? The Celtics 25 point 4th was offensively fine and should have been easily enough to win the game big. It was the defense that sucked. So why isn't that Coach T's responsibility? Why is he not being called out?

Here are the reasons. because plain and simple, Doc Bashers will bash Doc no matter the reason. He could do a brilliant overall whole year coaching job and win the championship but somehow be awful. Because the hatred for Doc as a coach overrides the logic of those that do not like him.

You have all the right to criticize the man, that I do not question. What I question is the logic behind it. If you give credit to another coach for the defensive success, then call out that coach when the defense fails, not Doc.

When the players on the court play horribly, call out those players, not Doc.

Call Doc out when he is supposed to be called out. Bad plays called after timeouts, horrible substitutions and rotational patterns, poor player preparation, poor usage of timeouts, and other such things.

But to blame a comeback by the second best team in the league, during a complete blowout win, when the players on the team stopped playing aggresively or playing any defense, and the other team is suddenly hitting 7 of 9 3-pointers on Doc because he took out Leon Powe is about as dumb a thing as I've seen from the Doc Bashers in a long time.

This team has won 2 straight Finals games against his highness Kobe and the winningest playoff coach ever.

And people are still complaining about Doc?

Get real people.

Great post! TP for you 100%! Hope you don't mind but i'll be copying this post and e-mailing it to all my friends who are HUGE Doc bashers. This should shut them up 

[nickagneta]

The title of this thread really says it all quite effectively. Nice choice, Doc ... take out the hottest guy on the floor ... how could the game possibly change momentum, right?!? (Hello, McFly ... anyone home?)

Check the stats my friend. The tide of momentum had already turned with Powe on the court as the Lakers has cut the 24 point Celtic lead to 16 in the 2 minutes before Leon was taken out.

2 minutes later the Celtics still lead by 16. Which to me sounds like the Allen substitution may have had a bit of a reason in stopping the bleeding.

Then the flood gates opened with 2 missed FTs and 2 missed FGs and 2 bad turnovers. Is all that really because Leon wasn't in the game?

[Bahku]

The title of this thread really says it all quite effectively. Nice choice, Doc ... take out the hottest guy on the floor ... how could the game possibly change momentum, right?!? (Hello, McFly ... anyone home?)

Check the stats my friend. The tide of momentum had already turned with Powe on the court as the Lakers has cut the 24 point Celtic lead to 16 in the 2 minutes before Leon was taken out.

2 minutes later the Celtics still lead by 16. Which to me sounds like the Allen substitution may have had a bit of a reason in stopping the bleeding.

Then the flood gates opened with 2 missed FTs and 2 missed FGs and 2 bad turnovers. Is all that really because Leon wasn't in the game?

Sorry, but Leon's energy was sorely missed, and while the tide may have begun to turn before his extraction, it was clear that the players on the floor were not being effective at staunching the bleeding, and Powe was an obvious adjustment that should have been made.

I really don't like making assumptions on stats ... they're way too incomplete of an indication of what's happening on the floor. Tempo and momentum doesn't very often change instantaneously, and the one major difference in the lack of attack and defensive energy in the last part of the game was precipitated by Leon's removal. (IMHO, of course) 

[celts55]

While Leon had the game of his life, I don't see that he would have made a differance.
In my own humble opinion, when PP got called for traveling on the 3 pointer and just laughed, than they went to a timeout where everyone on the bench was laughing and high fiving I turned to my wife and said, It's way too early for this. She thought I was crazy, but I guess not so much. I don't care who was out there. The problem was the team decided the game was over and went into cruse control, and as pretty much anyone who has ever played any sport can tell you, once you lose that momentum you can't just turn it back on.
Hopefully this is a good learning experance and next time they keep their foot on the gas for the full 48 minutes.

[Bahku]

While Leon had the game of his life, I don't see that he would have made a differance.
In my own humble opinion, when PP got called for traveling on the 3 pointer and just laughed, than they went to a timeout where everyone on the bench was laughing and high fiving I turned to my wife and said, It's way too early for this. She thought I was crazy, but I guess not so much. I don't care who was out there. The problem was the team decided the game was over and went into cruse control, and as pretty much anyone who has ever played any sport can tell you, once you lose that momentum you can't just turn it back on.
Hopefully this is a good learning experance and next time they keep their foot on the gas for the full 48 minutes.

Actually, you can turn it back on, and that's what you look to your bench players to do: give you an influx of energy and re-charge the battery, so-to-speak. Leon's energy was key to that game, and it was an obvious void when he left. It may not always work, but I've seen a bench player re-vitalize a team many, many times ... this one included, and this year. As far as Leon making the difference last night, we'll just never know.

[Chris]

The title of this thread really says it all quite effectively. Nice choice, Doc ... take out the hottest guy on the floor ... how could the game possibly change momentum, right?!? (Hello, McFly ... anyone home?)

Check the stats my friend. The tide of momentum had already turned with Powe on the court as the Lakers has cut the 24 point Celtic lead to 16 in the 2 minutes before Leon was taken out.

2 minutes later the Celtics still lead by 16. Which to me sounds like the Allen substitution may have had a bit of a reason in stopping the bleeding.

Then the flood gates opened with 2 missed FTs and 2 missed FGs and 2 bad turnovers. Is all that really because Leon wasn't in the game?

I was about to say the same thing.  The momentum had definitely shifted before Powe came out.  The Lakers had turned up the intensity, and starting bombing 3's, while the C's had already gone into coast mode.  Taking out Powe was an attempt to stop the change of momentum before they got completely run over (unfortunately, it didn't help).

[Bahku]

The title of this thread really says it all quite effectively. Nice choice, Doc ... take out the hottest guy on the floor ... how could the game possibly change momentum, right?!? (Hello, McFly ... anyone home?)

Check the stats my friend. The tide of momentum had already turned with Powe on the court as the Lakers has cut the 24 point Celtic lead to 16 in the 2 minutes before Leon was taken out.

2 minutes later the Celtics still lead by 16. Which to me sounds like the Allen substitution may have had a bit of a reason in stopping the bleeding.

Then the flood gates opened with 2 missed FTs and 2 missed FGs and 2 bad turnovers. Is all that really because Leon wasn't in the game?

Sorry, but Leon's energy was sorely missed, and while the tide may have begun to turn before his extraction, it was clear that the players on the floor were not being effective at staunching the bleeding, and Powe was an obvious adjustment that should have been made.

I really don't like making assumptions on stats ... they're way too incomplete of an indication of what's happening on the floor. Tempo and momentum doesn't very often change instantaneously, and the one major difference in the lack of attack and defensive energy in the last part of the game was precipitated by Leon's removal. (IMHO, of course) 

Ditto.

[nickagneta]

I'm sorry I just see the whole idea of blaming the Laker comeback on the one substitution of Ray Allen, a tremendously better perimeter defender than Leon, for Leon Powe during a time when the Lakers had 5 shooters on the floor, nothing more than a cop out from a fan base that still has an axe to grind about the coach because they have been so completely wrong about him.

I find it especially vindictive considering that two of the players that were on the floor admitted already to the fact that they got complacent and had let down.

If this is the case, why bring up the subject whatsoever, unless of course one just wants to once again take a shot at the coach. Which of course is exactly what is happening!

[Chris]

The title of this thread really says it all quite effectively. Nice choice, Doc ... take out the hottest guy on the floor ... how could the game possibly change momentum, right?!? (Hello, McFly ... anyone home?)

Check the stats my friend. The tide of momentum had already turned with Powe on the court as the Lakers has cut the 24 point Celtic lead to 16 in the 2 minutes before Leon was taken out.

2 minutes later the Celtics still lead by 16. Which to me sounds like the Allen substitution may have had a bit of a reason in stopping the bleeding.

Then the flood gates opened with 2 missed FTs and 2 missed FGs and 2 bad turnovers. Is all that really because Leon wasn't in the game?

Sorry, but Leon's energy was sorely missed, and while the tide may have begun to turn before his extraction, it was clear that the players on the floor were not being effective at staunching the bleeding, and Powe was an obvious adjustment that should have been made.

I really don't like making assumptions on stats ... they're way too incomplete of an indication of what's happening on the floor. Tempo and momentum doesn't very often change instantaneously, and the one major difference in the lack of attack and defensive energy in the last part of the game was precipitated by Leon's removal. (IMHO, of course) 

Ditto.

Did you just quote yourself???

Anyways, again, I just have to disagree here.  I think pulling Powe was the right move.  The tide was turning, because the Lakers were starting to bomb 3's, and Powe was a liability defensively against the Lakers lineup at the time.

Unfortunately, when they pulled Powe, it didn't change the fact that the Celtics stopped playing defense, even though they had a better squad out there to be able to cover them.

Sure, Doc could have tried to put Powe back in after a couple more minutes...but I think it was already too late.  That run was happening, whether Powe was in there or not, because the whole team decided they were no longer going to challenge shots.

[Bahku]

I'm sorry I just see the whole idea of blaming the Laker comeback on the one substitution of Ray Allen, a tremendously better perimeter defender than Leon, for Leon Powe during a time when the Lakers had 5 shooters on the floor, nothing more than a cop out from a fan base that still has an axe to grind about the coach because they have been so completely wrong about him.

I find it especially vindictive considering that two of the players that were on the floor admitted already to the fact that they got complacent and had let down.

If this is the case, why bring up the subject whatsoever, unless of course one just wants to once again take a shot at the coach. Which of course is exactly what is happening!

We'll plain just never know what difference Leon could have made, (if any), so it's a pretty safe bet to go with what actually happened. I'm just putting forth my honest feelings about what I saw, and what I felt should have happened, and not accusing anyone of anything negative or "vindictive" in the process.

People who know me here know I don't just bash others for the sake of bashing, and that I have a little more integirty than falling back on "cop outs". This is my opinion, Nick, and I have always respected yours whether we agreed or not. I truly take exception to the inferences here .... I have never, nor would never, treat you the same.

I speak my mind about Doc because it's truly the way I feel. I have no need to take "shots" at him, as he does a thorough enough job of that himself. Please don't presume to criticize others without deference or reproach, and then say any criticism of Doc is a cheap shot. We're here to discuss this team objectively, and Doc should be as subject to analysis as anyone else ... period.

Thanks for the kind words ... I truly thought we were on the same team here, but touche' ... TP for your biting wit. You win, man ... I'm done with this topic, and to the victor go the spoils!

[Bahku]

The title of this thread really says it all quite effectively. Nice choice, Doc ... take out the hottest guy on the floor ... how could the game possibly change momentum, right?!? (Hello, McFly ... anyone home?)

Check the stats my friend. The tide of momentum had already turned with Powe on the court as the Lakers has cut the 24 point Celtic lead to 16 in the 2 minutes before Leon was taken out.

2 minutes later the Celtics still lead by 16. Which to me sounds like the Allen substitution may have had a bit of a reason in stopping the bleeding.

Then the flood gates opened with 2 missed FTs and 2 missed FGs and 2 bad turnovers. Is all that really because Leon wasn't in the game?

Sorry, but Leon's energy was sorely missed, and while the tide may have begun to turn before his extraction, it was clear that the players on the floor were not being effective at staunching the bleeding, and Powe was an obvious adjustment that should have been made.

I really don't like making assumptions on stats ... they're way too incomplete of an indication of what's happening on the floor. Tempo and momentum doesn't very often change instantaneously, and the one major difference in the lack of attack and defensive energy in the last part of the game was precipitated by Leon's removal. (IMHO, of course) 

Ditto.

Did you just quote yourself???

Anyways, again, I just have to disagree here.  I think pulling Powe was the right move.  The tide was turning, because the Lakers were starting to bomb 3's, and Powe was a liability defensively against the Lakers lineup at the time.

Unfortunately, when they pulled Powe, it didn't change the fact that the Celtics stopped playing defense, even though they had a better squad out there to be able to cover them.

Sure, Doc could have tried to put Powe back in after a couple more minutes...but I think it was already too late.  That run was happening, whether Powe was in there or not, because the whole team decided they were no longer going to challenge shots.

Yup ... seemed a bit easier than typing the whole thing again ... especially where I use only two fingers!  This one has gotten too negative for me, so TP for the great discussion ... Powe should never have gone back in and Doc was perfect last night, as usual!