The score was 96-78 when Powe left the game with 5:56 left

[ma11l]

Everyone from the analysts to the Celtics are saying that the problem was the Celts got "complacent" and "fancy" with the lead.  Those are the last two words I would use to describe Leon Powe.  He gave them a huge spark by attacking the hoop and being active on both ends.  That would have been exactly what we needed to stop that run before it got so absurd and so close last night.


Leon was clearly, at the least, our second best player on the floor last night, why would you sit him for the end of the game?  I understand that we're up 2 and Doc is coaching a team two wins away from a title, (and I think he had done a GREAT job in this series up until that fourth quarter)  but there were some moves I believe he could've made to stop that run a lot earlier than we did.

[NicaraguanFan]

This was not Doc's fault at all. Doc called the timouts he had to, but the players didn't react until the Fakers were so close.  Good thing is we got the victory.

NF.

[clover]

Let's hope Doc learned from that as well--and will adjust.  Things that look obvious to us 'laypeople' seem to be things that Doc changes as these playoffs go on, so let's hope it is among the several things that I think are good 'lessons' for the C's going out West.  That 1st and/or 4th quarter 'complacency' seems to be a lesson they need to relearn every three games, at least: e.g., expect to see a more aggressive KG in the post the next game.

[kozlodoev]

Leon was clearly, at the least, our second best player on the floor last night, why would you sit him for the end of the game?  I understand that we're up 2 and Doc is coaching a team two wins away from a title, (and I think he had done a GREAT job in this series up until that fourth quarter)  but there were some moves I believe he could've made to stop that run a lot earlier than we did.

Half of Leon's hoops came after good penetration plays by our guards. I doubt Leon would have helped much when they started throwing the ball away.

Moreover, unless your name is Rondo, Garnett, Pierce, or Allen, you rarely play for longer than 8 minutes on this team. That's called putting your role players in a position to succeed by not overworking them.

[nickagneta]

I cannot believe that there are still those Doc bashers here that want to blame everything that doesn't work perfectly on Doc.

1. One Paul Pierce admitted that the team and especially he was complacent and played as such once the lead got huge and the time was down to 8 minutes or so. He also mentioned playing not like they were but as if they were just waiting for the game to run out. If the players have this type of mentality on the floor, how is a Doc substitution of Ray Allen for Leon Powe the reason for the Laker comeback?

2. People here are so quick to blame Doc for whatever part of the game seems to be faltering. During the Cleveland and Detroit series Doc was an idiot because his offensive schemes sucked. But the Doc Bashers thanked heaven above for Coach Tom Thibodeau because at least he was there to save the day with his great defensive coaching. So obviously Doc Bashers believe when the defense works it's Coach T's responsibility. So why is Doc doing such a bad job when the reason for the Laker comeback was not the fact that the Celtics only scored 8 points in the 4th but the fact that the Lakers scored 41 points in the 4th? The Celtics 25 point 4th was offensively fine and should have been easily enough to win the game big. It was the defense that sucked. So why isn't that Coach T's responsibility? Why is he not being called out?

Here are the reasons. because plain and simple, Doc Bashers will bash Doc no matter the reason. He could do a brilliant overall whole year coaching job and win the championship but somehow be awful. Because the hatred for Doc as a coach overrides the logic of those that do not like him.

You have all the right to criticize the man, that I do not question. What I question is the logic behind it. If you give credit to another coach for the defensive success, then call out that coach when the defense fails, not Doc.

When the players on the court play horribly, call out those players, not Doc.

Call Doc out when he is supposed to be called out. Bad plays called after timeouts, horrible substitutions and rotational patterns, poor player preparation, poor usage of timeouts, and other such things.

But to blame a comeback by the second best team in the league, during a complete blowout win, when the players on the team stopped playing aggresively or playing any defense, and the other team is suddenly hitting 7 of 9 3-pointers on Doc because he took out Leon Powe is about as dumb a thing as I've seen from the Doc Bashers in a long time.

This team has won 2 straight Finals games against his highness Kobe and the winningest playoff coach ever.

And people are still complaining about Doc?

Get real people.

So we shouldn't ask what happened?

We shouldn't question the decision to go small when play big for 7 straight quarters was working great for the Celtics?


As for the three pointer and going small, when the Celtics went small, the Lakers and Kobe were finally able to penetrate and that opened up the kickout pass for open three pointers. 


now whether it is Powe, PJ or perkins, one of them should have been in there. 


Yes, the Celtics players on the floor took their foot off the Lakers throat, the lineup they used gave the Lakers an advantage. 

 


(and with all that said, I love the Celtics are up 2-0)

Please point out to me where I said you could not question it. Please, go ahead. I'll wait......

Oh, I didn't. Oh as a matter of fact I said the following:

"You have all the right to criticize the man, that I do not question. What I question is the logic behind it."

Here are some quotes I found on boston.com. It's funny that the coach and the players questioned the players on the floor aggressiveness and overall mentality yet you are questioning a substitution.



“Obviously we've got to be a lot more aggressive come fourth quarter,” said Kevin Garnett.

"I was a little disappointed in our play in the last six minutes of the game," said Pierce.

"Myself, I was a little lackadaisical with the ball," Pierce said.

"I thought we just weren't aggressive enough to put the game away," Pierce said. "I thought we just wanted the time to run out."

"It's a great win, but definitely a lesson to be learned in the last six minutes."

"I thought we got cute when we got the lead," said Rivers, after the 108-102 win was complete. "We started trying to make sensational plays instead of keeping it simple."

Here's some facts for you to chew on as well.

With 7:54 to go the Celtics led 95-71 with the following line-up:

Posey, Garnett, Powe, Pierce, and Rondo

With 5:56 to go the Celtics led 96-78 and Powe was taken out in favor or Ray Allen. So in 2 minutes with Leon Powe on the floor the deficit was cut from 24 to 18. The lineup on the floor is now:

Posey, Garnett, Allen, Pierce, and Rondo

With 3:23 to go the Celtics led 102-86. A deficit of 16. In two minutes without Leon Powe the deficit was only cut by 2 points.

In the next three minutes the Lakers go on a 14-2 run where they shoot 6-7 from the field, made 2 three pointers, went 2-2 from the line and caused 2 turnovers while the Celtics missed 2 21'+ shots and 2 free throws.

Score 104-102 Celtics.

And after all these facts and after all the things KG and PP and Doc said about the way the Celtics played you want me to believe that Doc is at fault for having substituted Allen for Powe?

Not only can't you convince me of that but you couldn't convince the Celtic's or Laker's players or coaching staff of that. I find the entire argument incredulous and rather out there.

The facts show that with Leon on the floor that the tide had already started to turn. The facts show that Allen's insertion may have leveled things out for a couple of minutes. the facts show and the opinions of two of the players and the head coach are that the Lakers got red hot and that the Celtics relaxed and played poorly.

yet you want me and others tobelieve it was because of a substitution and matchup problems.

yeah, right.

[thedawg]

I partially agree. Doc has the tendency to make strange decisions from the bench but overall, I believe he did a good job last night.  He is just going through a learning curve just like the players on his team.  WHEN we have won the title this year, I believe Doc will be stronger next season and, if there ever there is a reason to sign a player to a multi-year deal, then it is now with Leon Powe.  He should be getting what he has today + what Scalabrine has on a 7 year deal!  Love the dude! 

[wdleehi]

I cannot believe that there are still those Doc bashers here that want to blame everything that doesn't work perfectly on Doc.

1. One Paul Pierce admitted that the team and especially he was complacent and played as such once the lead got huge and the time was down to 8 minutes or so. He also mentioned playing not like they were but as if they were just waiting for the game to run out. If the players have this type of mentality on the floor, how is a Doc substitution of Ray Allen for Leon Powe the reason for the Laker comeback?

2. People here are so quick to blame Doc for whatever part of the game seems to be faltering. During the Cleveland and Detroit series Doc was an idiot because his offensive schemes sucked. But the Doc Bashers thanked heaven above for Coach Tom Thibodeau because at least he was there to save the day with his great defensive coaching. So obviously Doc Bashers believe when the defense works it's Coach T's responsibility. So why is Doc doing such a bad job when the reason for the Laker comeback was not the fact that the Celtics only scored 8 points in the 4th but the fact that the Lakers scored 41 points in the 4th? The Celtics 25 point 4th was offensively fine and should have been easily enough to win the game big. It was the defense that sucked. So why isn't that Coach T's responsibility? Why is he not being called out?

Here are the reasons. because plain and simple, Doc Bashers will bash Doc no matter the reason. He could do a brilliant overall whole year coaching job and win the championship but somehow be awful. Because the hatred for Doc as a coach overrides the logic of those that do not like him.

You have all the right to criticize the man, that I do not question. What I question is the logic behind it. If you give credit to another coach for the defensive success, then call out that coach when the defense fails, not Doc.

When the players on the court play horribly, call out those players, not Doc.

Call Doc out when he is supposed to be called out. Bad plays called after timeouts, horrible substitutions and rotational patterns, poor player preparation, poor usage of timeouts, and other such things.

But to blame a comeback by the second best team in the league, during a complete blowout win, when the players on the team stopped playing aggresively or playing any defense, and the other team is suddenly hitting 7 of 9 3-pointers on Doc because he took out Leon Powe is about as dumb a thing as I've seen from the Doc Bashers in a long time.

This team has won 2 straight Finals games against his highness Kobe and the winningest playoff coach ever.

And people are still complaining about Doc?

Get real people.

So we shouldn't ask what happened?

We shouldn't question the decision to go small when play big for 7 straight quarters was working great for the Celtics?


As for the three pointer and going small, when the Celtics went small, the Lakers and Kobe were finally able to penetrate and that opened up the kickout pass for open three pointers. 


now whether it is Powe, PJ or perkins, one of them should have been in there. 


Yes, the Celtics players on the floor took their foot off the Lakers throat, the lineup they used gave the Lakers an advantage. 

 


(and with all that said, I love the Celtics are up 2-0)

Please point out to me where I said you could not question it. Please, go ahead. I'll wait......

Oh, I didn't. Oh as a matter of fact I said the following:

"You have all the right to criticize the man, that I do not question. What I question is the logic behind it."

Here are some quotes I found on boston.com. It's funny that the coach and the players questioned the players on the floor aggressiveness and overall mentality yet you are questioning a substitution.



“Obviously we've got to be a lot more aggressive come fourth quarter,” said Kevin Garnett.

"I was a little disappointed in our play in the last six minutes of the game," said Pierce.

"Myself, I was a little lackadaisical with the ball," Pierce said.

"I thought we just weren't aggressive enough to put the game away," Pierce said. "I thought we just wanted the time to run out."

"It's a great win, but definitely a lesson to be learned in the last six minutes."

"I thought we got cute when we got the lead," said Rivers, after the 108-102 win was complete. "We started trying to make sensational plays instead of keeping it simple."

Here's some facts for you to chew on as well.

With 7:54 to go the Celtics led 95-71 with the following line-up:

Posey, Garnett, Powe, Pierce, and Rondo

With 5:56 to go the Celtics led 96-78 and Powe was taken out in favor or Ray Allen. So in 2 minutes with Leon Powe on the floor the deficit was cut from 24 to 18. The lineup on the floor is now:

Posey, Garnett, Allen, Pierce, and Rondo

With 3:23 to go the Celtics led 102-86. A deficit of 16. In two minutes without Leon Powe the deficit was only cut by 2 points.

In the next three minutes the Lakers go on a 14-2 run where they shoot 6-7 from the field, made 2 three pointers, went 2-2 from the line and caused 2 turnovers while the Celtics missed 2 21'+ shots and 2 free throws.

Score 104-102 Celtics.

And after all these facts and after all the things KG and PP and Doc said about the way the Celtics played you want me to believe that Doc is at fault for having substituted Allen for Powe?

Not only can't you convince me of that but you couldn't convince the Celtic's or Laker's players or coaching staff of that. I find the entire argument incredulous and rather out there.

The facts show that with Leon on the floor that the tide had already started to turn. The facts show that Allen's insertion may have leveled things out for a couple of minutes. the facts show and the opinions of two of the players and the head coach are that the Lakers got red hot and that the Celtics relaxed and played poorly.

yet you want me and others tobelieve it was because of a substitution and matchup problems.

yeah, right.

Then why are you complaining about other posters questioning a coaching move? 

And even though the lakers had gotten closer before Powe left, the Celtics were still in control of the game. 

After that, Lakers to control of the boards.  The Celtics became an outside team.  Lakers offense got into rythem by attacking th hoop.



Even if it isn't Powe, the PJ/KG combo did a good job against Gasol/Rad combo at the end of game 1. 




plus, during the game, how much of the offense came from the dump off pass to Powe/PJ/Perkins near the hoop.  When he Celtics went small, that option and weapon went away. 



And by look of the highlights, it seems the questions brought up was logical and dealing with a substitution that took away the Celtics advantage.


Now you can continue with your 'Doc hater' rant, questioning the move to go small is a legitimate comment. 

[nickagneta]

It's not a legit comment about what transpired at the end of the game. The players themselves admit it was their mentality of playing to not lose and waiting for the time to expire.

But that apparently falls on deaf ears because after Powe played 8 straight minutes you wanted him to play 6 more because in retrospect things didn't end as pretty as you wanted them.

Say what you want but my Doc Hater rant makes endlessly more sense than that the Celtics almost gave away a lead because Doc substituted a future Hall of Famer for a guy that will make his living being the third option off the bench.

[wdleehi]

It's not a legit comment about what transpired at the end of the game. The players themselves admit it was their mentality of playing to not lose and waiting for the time to expire.

But that apparently falls on deaf ears because after Powe played 8 straight minutes you wanted him to play 6 more because in retrospect things didn't end as pretty as you wanted them.

Say what you want but my Doc Hater rant makes endlessly more sense than that the Celtics almost gave away a lead because Doc substituted a future Hall of Famer for a guy that will make his living being the third option off the bench.

I am not harping on Powe.  I am harping on playing big.  That's where the Celtics have the biggest advantage. 

Powe/PJ/Perkins. 

[nickagneta]

It's not a legit comment about what transpired at the end of the game. The players themselves admit it was their mentality of playing to not lose and waiting for the time to expire.

But that apparently falls on deaf ears because after Powe played 8 straight minutes you wanted him to play 6 more because in retrospect things didn't end as pretty as you wanted them.

Say what you want but my Doc Hater rant makes endlessly more sense than that the Celtics almost gave away a lead because Doc substituted a future Hall of Famer for a guy that will make his living being the third option off the bench.

I am not harping on Powe.  I am harping on playing big.  That's where the Celtics have the biggest advantage. 

Powe/PJ/Perkins. 

Okay, that's fine. But let's take a step back and look at things.

Powe had just gone 8 straight minutes, missed a bucket and a free throw and, IMO, looked a bit gassed. So he had to sit. Again just my opinion.

So you are saying that if Brown or Perk(who I think is hurt more than the team is letting on because I did question why he couldn't return but then again they killed the Lakers in the second half without him) should have replaced him to stay big.

But LA had a team of Fisher, Vujavic, Radmonovic, Kobe, and Gasol on the floor. A team consisting of 3 guards, a 6'10" small forward who plays like a guard and a soft PF.

I don't see how going small to put better ball handlers on the floor and better perimeter defensive players on the floor is a bad decision. If Powe had to leave under the assumption he was tired, would Brown or Perk really have made that much of a difference in guarding the Lakers 5 shots made of over 20 feet in the time Powe went to the bench until the end of the game?

Towards the end of the game there was some more penetration but IMO it was not the reason the three pointers were being made. The three pointers were being made because the three pointers were going to be taken, period. It didn't matter who was in the game. They were flying and on many of the possessions they were being shot very very early in the possession. That's because the Lakers wanted to get the shots off before the defense set.

A big being in wasn't going to change Rondo's missed FTs. A big being in wasn't going to change the 2 really bad turnovers. A big being in wasn't going to change the fact that the Lakers were going to chuck up the first 3 point look they had. And I don't see, after rewatching those Kobe drives, where a big was going to alter those shots of his on the penetration.

There were a bunch of times this year where I agree with you that going small hurt this team. But I don't agree that last night was one. The players let up and they had every opportunity to do what needed to be done to end the game with a lot less angst involved.

The players just didn't get it done.

[wdleehi]

It's not a legit comment about what transpired at the end of the game. The players themselves admit it was their mentality of playing to not lose and waiting for the time to expire.

But that apparently falls on deaf ears because after Powe played 8 straight minutes you wanted him to play 6 more because in retrospect things didn't end as pretty as you wanted them.

Say what you want but my Doc Hater rant makes endlessly more sense than that the Celtics almost gave away a lead because Doc substituted a future Hall of Famer for a guy that will make his living being the third option off the bench.

I am not harping on Powe.  I am harping on playing big.  That's where the Celtics have the biggest advantage. 

Powe/PJ/Perkins. 

Okay, that's fine. But let's take a step back and look at things.

Powe had just gone 8 straight minutes, missed a bucket and a free throw and, IMO, looked a bit gassed. So he had to sit. Again just my opinion.

So you are saying that if Brown or Perk(who I think is hurt more than the team is letting on because I did question why he couldn't return but then again they killed the Lakers in the second half without him) should have replaced him to stay big.

But LA had a team of Fisher, Vujavic, Radmonovic, Kobe, and Gasol on the floor. A team consisting of 3 guards, a 6'10" small forward who plays like a guard and a soft PF.

I don't see how going small to put better ball handlers on the floor and better perimeter defensive players on the floor is a bad decision. If Powe had to leave under the assumption he was tired, would Brown or Perk really have made that much of a difference in guarding the Lakers 5 shots made of over 20 feet in the time Powe went to the bench until the end of the game?

Towards the end of the game there was some more penetration but IMO it was not the reason the three pointers were being made. The three pointers were being made because the three pointers were going to be taken, period. It didn't matter who was in the game. They were flying and on many of the possessions they were being shot very very early in the possession. That's because the Lakers wanted to get the shots off before the defense set.

A big being in wasn't going to change Rondo's missed FTs. A big being in wasn't going to change the 2 really bad turnovers. A big being in wasn't going to change the fact that the Lakers were going to chuck up the first 3 point look they had. And I don't see, after rewatching those Kobe drives, where a big was going to alter those shots of his on the penetration.

There were a bunch of times this year where I agree with you that going small hurt this team. But I don't agree that last night was one. The players let up and they had every opportunity to do what needed to be done to end the game with a lot less angst involved.

The players just didn't get it done.

KG can cover Rad.  he did for the last 2 minutes of game 1.  He is less of a threat to drive then Odom. 


The KG/PJ combo worked well against that lineup game 1. Would have gone back to that. 

[Chris]

It's not a legit comment about what transpired at the end of the game. The players themselves admit it was their mentality of playing to not lose and waiting for the time to expire.

But that apparently falls on deaf ears because after Powe played 8 straight minutes you wanted him to play 6 more because in retrospect things didn't end as pretty as you wanted them.

Say what you want but my Doc Hater rant makes endlessly more sense than that the Celtics almost gave away a lead because Doc substituted a future Hall of Famer for a guy that will make his living being the third option off the bench.

I am not harping on Powe.  I am harping on playing big.  That's where the Celtics have the biggest advantage. 

Powe/PJ/Perkins. 

I agree completely.  The C's NEED to play big. 

However, I think Doc was in a no-win situation going down the stretch.  The Lakers went small with essentially 5 shooters (if you count Gasol).  If the C's had left Powe in there, they would have been even more vulnerable to the 3 pointers which got the Lakers back in the game.  The fact is, the team stopped rotating in the last 6 or 7 minutes.  I don't think Powe, who happens to be the slowest rotator, and worst perimeter defender on the team (that is not hyperbole, Doc has said it before, and I have been saying it all season), would have helped much with that.

The 3 pointers had swung the momentum, and the C's best chance was to get a team out there who would actually challenge the 3 pointers, and that is what he put out there...unfortunately, the players didn't respond, because in their mind, they were already on the plane to LA up 2-0.

Pretty simply, we saw why this LA team is so dangerous...and why they may be even more dangerous when they are down big, than when it is a close game.  They can really take advantage of an unfocused team with their shooting.

[Chris]

As for the three pointer and going small, when the Celtics went small, the Lakers and Kobe were finally able to penetrate and that opened up the kickout pass for open three pointers. 

This I don't agree with at all.  Their ability to penetrate had nothing to do with the lack of big men, it had to do with the perimeter guys (some of them anyways) playing with their head up their...

The one real complaint I had with the coaching down the stretch (I blame the lack of aggressiveness on the players) was that they left Posey on Kobe for too long.  Kobe has been abusing Posey for the entire series.  Kobe is just way too quick for him.  Allen on the other hand has handled Kobe perfectly.  He has kept him in front of him, which is exactly what you need to do.  As soon as Kobe gets a step on you (like he would get a step on Posey everytime), he is nearly impossible to stop from picking the defense apart.

[nickagneta]

As for the three pointer and going small, when the Celtics went small, the Lakers and Kobe were finally able to penetrate and that opened up the kickout pass for open three pointers. 

This I don't agree with at all.  Their ability to penetrate had nothing to do with the lack of big men, it had to do with the perimeter guys (some of them anyways) playing with their head up their...

The one real complaint I had with the coaching down the stretch (I blame the lack of aggressiveness on the players) was that they left Posey on Kobe for too long.  Kobe has been abusing Posey for the entire series.  Kobe is just way too quick for him.  Allen on the other hand has handled Kobe perfectly.  He has kept him in front of him, which is exactly what you need to do.  As soon as Kobe gets a step on you (like he would get a step on Posey everytime), he is nearly impossible to stop from picking the defense apart.

I noticed that with Posey as well. This is the second superstar that has exposed his lack of first step speed as LeBron was also torching him with simple speed off the first step. Of course those are the two biggest names on the planet but still something I would consider before investing big in Posey in the offseason. His first step defensive speed is going to get better.

[Chris]

As for the three pointer and going small, when the Celtics went small, the Lakers and Kobe were finally able to penetrate and that opened up the kickout pass for open three pointers. 

This I don't agree with at all.  Their ability to penetrate had nothing to do with the lack of big men, it had to do with the perimeter guys (some of them anyways) playing with their head up their...

The one real complaint I had with the coaching down the stretch (I blame the lack of aggressiveness on the players) was that they left Posey on Kobe for too long.  Kobe has been abusing Posey for the entire series.  Kobe is just way too quick for him.  Allen on the other hand has handled Kobe perfectly.  He has kept him in front of him, which is exactly what you need to do.  As soon as Kobe gets a step on you (like he would get a step on Posey everytime), he is nearly impossible to stop from picking the defense apart.

I noticed that with Posey as well. This is the second superstar that has exposed his lack of first step speed as LeBron was also torching him with simple speed off the first step. Of course those are the two biggest names on the planet but still something I would consider before investing big in Posey in the offseason. His first step defensive speed is going to get better.

I just think that Kobe is a much better matchup for a quicker guy to cover.  If someone can stay in front of him, and has the quickness to get up on him tight, then they can throw him off his rhythm.  Kobe doesn't often just pullup and shoot over guys, he likes to try to shake them first, and then rise up.  If he is not able to shake them, then he often shoots out of rhythm.  Against a guy like Posey, who is a little slower, and more physical, he is able to shake him pretty easily, and that allows him to get in rhythm to either shoot it, or break down the defense.

This is also why Tony Allen has had success against him in the past.