Pierce top 50?

[Brickowski]

No, he's not top 50, although that's a subjective concept because everyone has his own list along with the quasi-official list that came out a few years ago. That official list has is flaws: for starters, Paul Arizin and James Worthy should not have been on the list. Bernard King was way better than both of them. And Bill Walton's career was too short for him to be on the list.

If Pierce had arrived as a rookie playing defense the way he has this year, and had kept it up throughout his career, he might have made my top 50 list. But he didn't and he hasn't.

Really, the only "top 50" players I see in the league right now are Garnett, Duncan and maybe Kobe.  LeBron James and Dwayne Wade have the potential to make it, but it's too early to tell.  Nash, McGrady and Nowitzski are not good enough defensively to be in the top 50.   

[nickagneta]

This has been brought up at least once in this thread but didn't get much discussion.  Is anyone in disagreement that Garnett is a top 50 player of all-time?

I'd put KG on there.  In terms of who could be replaced in the Top-50, Bill Walton is easy to drop off, just due to his injuries.  Robert Parish is a candidate, too.  I love the Chief, but he wasn't a guy who I think would have done a lot if he was the centerpiece of a team.

I pretty much agree with this. The Chief and Bill would probably be the two rated near the bottom that would be in trouble dropping off from other players that have to join this list.

Other near the bottom 5 in my book would be:

Pete Maravich - possibly one of the best college players ever if not the best ever but he just wasn't nearly as good as a pro. His stats are kind of pedestrian when compared to players like Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett who I believe will all need to grace this list when they retire. Add the fact that Iverson and LeBron have single handedly carried teams to the finals and that Kobe and Garnett(hopefully) will have won rings and it makes the decision a no-brainer.

Dave Bing - a gem of a player built a bit in the Sam Cassell mode but his resume is sorely lacking when compared to some of the players that have now followed him. And again no rings.

Billy Cunningham - considering some of the big-time forwards that are in the league that could bust out as multiple time NBA Champions and an MVP or two, Billy is probably the most likely forward to disappear of the list. A great defender and excellent rebounder for his size that was very fundamentally sound, Billy would probably still have a game that translated to success in today's game. But many in the league now that play his position would probably be considered better than him. Duncan, Garnett, Stoudemire, Bosh, Brand and Boozer all come to mind. But with the exception of Garnett and Duncan the others still have to do more to overthrow him eventually.

[billysan]

I would love to see Paul on the top 50 list. I cant honestly say he deserves it though if all the criteria are fairly weighed. As Brick said, defense was not so great when he was younger. As he (PP) admitted, he was an ISO guy that had to be argued with by Doc Rivers to play team ball on a winning level.

More than those, his long term performance may present some argument from a personal stats perspective, but not from a collective team winning perspective. Especially playoffs, big games, championships, etc. Paul has not really displayed that ability to 'win by himself and still make his teammates better in the process by forcibly involving them'.

Very few modern (25 yr window) players, Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and maybe Shaq, Kareem or Duncan in our recent era can be counted in that group. They played and won with role players when necessary but they still won. They didnt need a group of "stars" to get it done. McHale, Parrish, Worthy, 'Nique, Pippen, etc are all really role players in an honest comparison. In other words, the team proved it can still win the big games without them but not without the first group.

You cant include Kobe, Paul, or even KG with the first group yet because they simply havent shown us that ability to date. In fairness, I think all three may have that shot before it is over, but they may also end up in my second group which is still pretty good IMO.

[BballTim]

I think when his career is all said and done, he'll be a top 10 small forward all time.

Bird
Baylor
Dr. J
Havlicek (if you classify him as a small forward)
Rick Barry
Pippen
Lebron
James Worthy
Bernard King
Alex English

Some people classify Bob Pettit as a small forward, as well as George Gervin.  Anyway, that's Pierce's competition, and I think it's possible for him to settle in at ninth or tenth.

  I wouldn't have a problem putting him ahead of Worthy or English, especially in terms of toughness.

[nickagneta]

I think when his career is all said and done, he'll be a top 10 small forward all time.

Bird
Baylor
Dr. J
Havlicek (if you classify him as a small forward)
Rick Barry
Pippen
Lebron
James Worthy
Bernard King
Alex English

Some people classify Bob Pettit as a small forward, as well as George Gervin.  Anyway, that's Pierce's competition, and I think it's possible for him to settle in at ninth or tenth.

  I wouldn't have a problem putting him ahead of Worthy or English, especially in terms of toughness.

I'm not so sure. You're missing some very good guys.

Shawm Marion
Chris Mullin
Dominique Wilkens
Larry Nance
Adrian Dantley
Dolph Schayes
Tracy McGrady
Charles Barkley - I guess he could be considered a PF but he played a SF game.

Arguments could be made that not only are the players on your list better SFs than Pierce but so are these guys.

I love Pierce, but he is not in the Top 50 Player list and I don't think he's even in the Top 15 SF list.

[Mr Mark]

We could argue all day if you bring out the data of championships and mvps and all sorts of other stats.  I offer the point of view of evaluating his game for excellence.  My point is that he has no weakness.  He can run the low and high post, drive (while doing a 360⁰, run the point, shoot inside, shoot the midrange jumper and the ever-popular 3 pointer, dribble, draw the foul, play tremendous defense (one on one and team-wise), provides leadership, makes other players better, and he can take over a game single-handedly, if needed. 

He can teach sports acting and drama class.  He has the "I can't believe he fouled me like that" face, and the "I can't believe that you are calling a foul on me for that" face.  Who does the "draw the foul, shoot and make it, going to the line for a 3 point play" better that Paul? 

He knows when to step up, and when to let the others do their thing.  He is the great supporter and the go-to guy.  He is a winner and will prove it in the next few games.

So, have I left out any attributes?  Is there a weak part of his game, except being human?  He is definately one of the best professional basketball players, ever.  What number? That is what keeps the blogs going, sells papers, and fuels talk show debates.  Who cares.  He is one of the best, we have him on one of the greates Celtic teams of all time that is making history this season.  He is about to prove his ability to win.  Paul Pierce, basketball player, extraordinaire.

[Brickowski]

Let me add that if Chris Paul keeps it up, he'll be a top 50 player as well.  I often wonder where the Celtics would be today had the proposed deal with Portland gone through (Pierce for Nick Van Exel's nonguaranteed contract and pick #3) and the Celtics had drafted Chris Paul that year, and used pick #18 to draft David Lee or Jason Maxiell instead of Gerald Green.

[Roy Hobbs]

I think when his career is all said and done, he'll be a top 10 small forward all time.

Bird
Baylor
Dr. J
Havlicek (if you classify him as a small forward)
Rick Barry
Pippen
Lebron
James Worthy
Bernard King
Alex English

Some people classify Bob Pettit as a small forward, as well as George Gervin.  Anyway, that's Pierce's competition, and I think it's possible for him to settle in at ninth or tenth.

  I wouldn't have a problem putting him ahead of Worthy or English, especially in terms of toughness.

I'm not so sure. You're missing some very good guys.

Shawm Marion
Chris Mullin
Dominique Wilkens
Larry Nance
Adrian Dantley
Dolph Schayes
Tracy McGrady
Charles Barkley

Wilkens should be on my list.  I had him in mind, and I'm not sure why I didn't write it down.

Dantley is in the conversation, although he was purely one-dimensional.  He split time as power forward (which is crazy because he was 6'5").  A 6'5" post-player...  unreal.  I'm glad he finally made the Hall.

McGrady...  at his height he was better, but Pierce will have the better career.  Plus, McGrady has never been out of the first round.  Very close, but if Pierce wins the championship, I think this becomes clearer.

Mullin is another one of those guys who had an amazing peak, but not a tremendous career outside of that.  He's a consideration, but I like Paul better.

I don't think Marion is on Paul's level.  Talk to me once he can create his own shot.

Barkley is a power forward, as you note.  Schayes wasn't a small forward, either, nor was Larry Nance.

[Chief]

I think when his career is all said and done, he'll be a top 10 small forward all time.

Bird
Baylor
Dr. J
Havlicek (if you classify him as a small forward)
Rick Barry
Pippen
Lebron
James Worthy
Bernard King
Alex English

Some people classify Bob Pettit as a small forward, as well as George Gervin.  Anyway, that's Pierce's competition, and I think it's possible for him to settle in at ninth or tenth.

  I wouldn't have a problem putting him ahead of Worthy or English, especially in terms of toughness.

I'm not so sure. You're missing some very good guys.

Shawm Marion
Chris Mullin
Dominique Wilkens
Larry Nance
Adrian Dantley
Dolph Schayes
Tracy McGrady
Charles Barkley

Wilkens should be on my list.  I had him in mind, and I'm not sure why I didn't write it down.

Dantley is in the conversation, although he was purely one-dimensional.  He split time as power forward (which is crazy because he was 6'5").  A 6'5" post-player...  unreal.  I'm glad he finally made the Hall.

McGrady...  at his height he was better, but Pierce will have the better career.  Plus, McGrady has never been out of the first round.  Very close, but if Pierce wins the championship, I think this becomes clearer.

Mullin is another one of those guys who had an amazing peak, but not a tremendous career outside of that.  He's a consideration, but I like Paul better.

I don't think Marion is on Paul's level.  Talk to me once he can create his own shot.

Barkley is a power forward, as you note.  Schayes wasn't a small forward, either, nor was Larry Nance.

How about Mark Aguire? I think sometimes people forget how good he was.

[nickagneta]

I think when his career is all said and done, he'll be a top 10 small forward all time.

Bird
Baylor
Dr. J
Havlicek (if you classify him as a small forward)
Rick Barry
Pippen
Lebron
James Worthy
Bernard King
Alex English

Some people classify Bob Pettit as a small forward, as well as George Gervin.  Anyway, that's Pierce's competition, and I think it's possible for him to settle in at ninth or tenth.

  I wouldn't have a problem putting him ahead of Worthy or English, especially in terms of toughness.

I'm not so sure. You're missing some very good guys.

Shawm Marion
Chris Mullin
Dominique Wilkens
Larry Nance
Adrian Dantley
Dolph Schayes
Tracy McGrady
Charles Barkley

Wilkens should be on my list.  I had him in mind, and I'm not sure why I didn't write it down.

Dantley is in the conversation, although he was purely one-dimensional.  He split time as power forward (which is crazy because he was 6'5").  A 6'5" post-player...  unreal.  I'm glad he finally made the Hall.

McGrady...  at his height he was better, but Pierce will have the better career.  Plus, McGrady has never been out of the first round.  Very close, but if Pierce wins the championship, I think this becomes clearer.

Mullin is another one of those guys who had an amazing peak, but not a tremendous career outside of that.  He's a consideration, but I like Paul better.

I don't think Marion is on Paul's level.  Talk to me once he can create his own shot.

Barkley is a power forward, as you note.  Schayes wasn't a small forward, either, nor was Larry Nance.

I'll give you Barkley and Schayes though I still think Schayes played more of a SF game from the PF position, much like Charles.

But Larry Nance played SF for a major part of his career in Phoenix. They usually had James Edwards and Alvin Adams at the center position and Maurice Lucas, Ed Pinckney, Armon Gilliam and Adams at the PF position for his years there. Nance in Phoenix was a SF.

In Cleveland he never played center and he usually was playing a small forward position as they had Hot Rod Williams at PF and Brad Daugherty always played center. It wasn't until Danny Ferry came along that Nance got to play a lot of PF when he played alongside Ferry.

But most of his career he was a SF and was always a better rebounder and defender than Pierce. I think a strong argument could be made he is a better player than Pierce is.

But many will look at him as a PF yet forget that he was really playing and guarding SFs most of the time.

[Fastbreak]

Always an interesting topic..and, as always, the generational questions arise..If you saw Bill Walton play live you would never doubt that he was a top 50 player..I'm also pretty sure that the line between Kobe and MJ is a very fine one...(MJ was far superior in marketing himself, not that there is anything wrong with that if you can back it up..Lebron has trouble with the latter)..Paul is outside the top 50 right now...three wins from now we might have to make room..   

[Roy Hobbs]

If you saw Bill Walton play live you would never doubt that he was a top 50 player. 

I think there's always that dichotomy between a Top-50 player (which Walton was) and having a Top-50 NBA career (which I'd say he didn't).  At his peak, there were few better.  Injuries, however, did him in.

[Scintan]

One could argue about where he even fits in the top 10 of Celtics players, nevermind the top 50 all time in the NBA.  Roy Hobbs pointed out

Russell
Bird
Havlicek
Cousy
Cowens
McHale

That list doesn't even have players like Parrish, D.J. and Reggie there.  One could very reasonably have Pierce ranked 10th in Boston, and that's only counting 'career' type players, rather than all the greats who passed through (Walton and Wilkins type players).

Pierce is no slouch, but he's not a top 50 all time NBA player, either, at least when I tally them up.

[Vermont Green]

I didn't read this entire thread but I went through the list of top 50 and here are several that feel Pierce is better than:

Archibald
Barry
Bing
Drexler
Wilkins
Pippen

I only picked ones that I can remember actually playing.  There may be others on the list that are before my time that PP beats out too.

[Brickowski]

I didn't read this entire thread but I went through the list of top 50 and here are several that feel Pierce is better than:

Archibald
Barry
Bing
Drexler
Wilkins
Pippen

I only picked ones that I can remember actually playing.  There may be others on the list that are before my time that PP beats out too.

No, all of those guys were better than Pierce, with the possible exception of Wilkins.