PJ Brown in the finals

[WedmanIsMyHero]

One thing that concerns me about the NBA finals is the declining effectiveness of PJ Brown throughout the Eastern Conference Finals compared to his performance against Cleveland.  He provided a boost when he came in for the Cleveland series, but look at his production in the ECF:

Game 1: 18 min, 2-3 FG, 0-1 FT (4 points), 1 Off Rbnd, 1 Def Rbnd, 2 Assists, 1 Block, 2 PF
Game 2: 19 min, 2-2 FG, 0-0 FT (4 points), 1 Off Rbnd, 1 Def Rbnd, 2 Assists
Game 3: 21 min, 1-4 FG, 2-2 FT (4 points),  2 Off Rbnd, 2 Def Rbnd, 1 Block, 2 PF
Game 4: 17 min, 0-0 FG, 4-4 FT (4 points), 0 Off Rbnd, 3 Def Rbnd, 2 TO, 2 PF
Game 5: 14 min, 0-2 FG, 0-1 3PM-A, 0-0 FT (0 Points), 2 Off Rbnd, 1 Def Rbnd, 1 Assist, 2 TO, 2 PF
Game 6: 12 min, 0-1 FG, 2-2 FT (2 points), 1 Off Rbnd, 0 Def Rbnd, 1 Block, 2 TO, 4 PF

Now imagine him against a young and vigorous guy like Ronny Turiaf. . . .

What do people think?  Obviously if Perkins can maintain his Game 6 level of play, it won't matter.  But presuming some regression to the mean. .

[wdleehi]

He is the 1st big man off the bench.


Celtics should stick to the 3 big man rotation.


There is so much time between games, rest is not as big of a concern.

[MBz]

If Brown isn't producing, I want to see Big Baby.  I think his banging on the glass and strength could help us, but only if Brown isn't producing.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

It is true that he IS the first big off the bench.  I am questioning whether that is wise given his declining production in the Detroit series vis-a-vis the Cleveland series. 

What I am trying to figure out is:

1. Why the declining production?
2. Is it likely to continue against the Lakers?

He is the 1st big man off the bench.


Celtics should stick to the 3 big man rotation.


There is so much time between games, rest is not as big of a concern.

[wdleehi]

It is true that he IS the first big off the bench.  I am questioning whether that is wise given his declining production in the Detroit series vis-a-vis the Cleveland series. 

What I am trying to figure out is:

1. Why the declining production?
2. Is it likely to continue against the Lakers?

He is the 1st big man off the bench.


Celtics should stick to the 3 big man rotation.


There is so much time between games, rest is not as big of a concern.

The biggest decline he had over the Detroit series was minutes.

he still provided the best big man defense off the bench.

And with the series spread out, KG and Perkins should get major minutes.

[Roy Hobbs]

P.J. is an interesting case.  The Celtics routinely get outscored when he is on the floor.

Here is P.J.'s +/- for the Detroit series:

-1, -5, -8, -2, -11, -8

The team gave up more net points than it scored with P.J. on the court, in all six games.  It's doubtful that it's a coincidence.

Is that an indictment of P.J.'s play?  Maybe, but not necessarily.  The team gives up fewer points with P.J. in the game than it does when he's out (100.3 vs. 102.7 points per 48.)  Defense is what P.J. is in there for.  He's our most physical defender, more so even than Perk.

The problem, from my perspective, is the way Doc is deploying his bench. The team is scoring, on average, 17.1 points per 48 minutes fewer with P.J. on the court as opposed to when he's on the bench.  That's in large part because P.J. is used as a part of Doc's "bench lineup", when he puts four -- and sometimes five -- bench players on the court at the same time.  Necessarily, we're going to be outscored during that time.

I think P.J. is best when used in a lineup that emphasizes his defense, while still having enough firepower to ensure that the team can outscore the opponent.  He's going to make a limited offensive contribution, but his defense can be very valuable to this team.

If Doc insists on playing four men off the bench at the same time, though, I think you need to rotate Powe into the mix.  He's been our most productive bench big man all year, and he's a much more consistent scorer than BBD or Brown.

[Who]

I like what PJ has been doing. He's allowing our star players to do what they do best. That's all you ask of a role player.

[jay_jay54]

P.J. is an interesting case.  The Celtics routinely get outscored when he is on the floor.

Here is P.J.'s +/- for the Detroit series:

-1, -5, -8, -2, -11, -8

The team gave up more net points than it scored with P.J. on the court, in all six games.  It's doubtful that it's a coincidence.

Is that an indictment of P.J.'s play?  Maybe, but not necessarily.  The team gives up fewer points with P.J. in the game than it does when he's out (100.3 vs. 102.7 points per 48.)  Defense is what P.J. is in there for.  He's our most physical defender, more so even than Perk.

The problem, from my perspective, is the way Doc is deploying his bench. The team is scoring, on average, 17.1 points per 48 minutes fewer with P.J. on the court as opposed to when he's on the bench.  That's in large part because P.J. is used as a part of Doc's "bench lineup", when he puts four -- and sometimes five -- bench players on the court at the same time.  Necessarily, we're going to be outscored during that time.

I think P.J. is best when used in a lineup that emphasizes his defense, while still having enough firepower to ensure that the team can outscore the opponent.  He's going to make a limited offensive contribution, but his defense can be very valuable to this team.

If Doc insists on playing four men off the bench at the same time, though, I think you need to rotate Powe into the mix.  He's been our most productive bench big man all year, and he's a much more consistent scorer than BBD or Brown.

RH,totally agree in this situation(PJ).I see where he is a positive in situations,but its all about,how to best use him.TP for bringing it up and the stats to back it up.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Great point!  Anyone want to argue with this -- looks very persuasive to me. .

P.J. is an interesting case.  The Celtics routinely get outscored when he is on the floor.

Here is P.J.'s +/- for the Detroit series:

-1, -5, -8, -2, -11, -8

The team gave up more net points than it scored with P.J. on the court, in all six games.  It's doubtful that it's a coincidence.

Is that an indictment of P.J.'s play?  Maybe, but not necessarily.  The team gives up fewer points with P.J. in the game than it does when he's out (100.3 vs. 102.7 points per 48.)  Defense is what P.J. is in there for.  He's our most physical defender, more so even than Perk.

The problem, from my perspective, is the way Doc is deploying his bench. The team is scoring, on average, 17.1 points per 48 minutes fewer with P.J. on the court as opposed to when he's on the bench.  That's in large part because P.J. is used as a part of Doc's "bench lineup", when he puts four -- and sometimes five -- bench players on the court at the same time.  Necessarily, we're going to be outscored during that time.

I think P.J. is best when used in a lineup that emphasizes his defense, while still having enough firepower to ensure that the team can outscore the opponent.  He's going to make a limited offensive contribution, but his defense can be very valuable to this team.

If Doc insists on playing four men off the bench at the same time, though, I think you need to rotate Powe into the mix.  He's been our most productive bench big man all year, and he's a much more consistent scorer than BBD or Brown.

[NicaraguanFan]

PJ has been fine. In Cavs Series, specially in one game, PJ was huge, but we cannot expect him to be huge in every single game, he is not here for that.

NF.

[Barnabas]

For one thing, they don't run plays for PJ.  Ofcourse the second unit will get outscored.  Our second unit is made up primarily of defensive players. 

[Jon]

P.J. is an interesting case.  The Celtics routinely get outscored when he is on the floor.

Here is P.J.'s +/- for the Detroit series:

-1, -5, -8, -2, -11, -8

The team gave up more net points than it scored with P.J. on the court, in all six games.  It's doubtful that it's a coincidence.

Is that an indictment of P.J.'s play?  Maybe, but not necessarily.  The team gives up fewer points with P.J. in the game than it does when he's out (100.3 vs. 102.7 points per 48.)  Defense is what P.J. is in there for.  He's our most physical defender, more so even than Perk.

The problem, from my perspective, is the way Doc is deploying his bench. The team is scoring, on average, 17.1 points per 48 minutes fewer with P.J. on the court as opposed to when he's on the bench.  That's in large part because P.J. is used as a part of Doc's "bench lineup", when he puts four -- and sometimes five -- bench players on the court at the same time.  Necessarily, we're going to be outscored during that time.

I think P.J. is best when used in a lineup that emphasizes his defense, while still having enough firepower to ensure that the team can outscore the opponent.  He's going to make a limited offensive contribution, but his defense can be very valuable to this team.

If Doc insists on playing four men off the bench at the same time, though, I think you need to rotate Powe into the mix.  He's been our most productive bench big man all year, and he's a much more consistent scorer than BBD or Brown.

I'd rather Doc manage his bench better and not have to go to a four big man rotation.  There's no reason why--especially in this series against Kobe--he can't take Pierce or Allen out midway through the first, put Posey on Kobe for a bit, then rotate Pierce/Allen back in towards the end of the first, beginning of the second.  If he subbed this way, there would be no time during the game when at least two members of the Big Three were on the floor. 

[Big Ticket]

I'm hoping for a steady dose of Powe and Baby. 

The Lakers only have one big off the bench.  Getting Gasol/Odom in foul trouble would be huge.

[cmoney]

As much as I hate Doc for playing PJ so much, it truly was a huge mistake for Danny to even sign him.   It made NO sense.

Check this; the Sam signing made sense.  He was playing very well in LA, we needed a backup PG we could trust with ball handling, a veteran to help out with Rondo in case he got rattled.  Unfortunately, it just isn't the right fit and it didn't work out.  Smart planning, poor result.  This happens.

PJ, on the other hand, offered us nothing.  He hadn't been good for a couple of years.  He was pretty terrible in Chicago last season.   Now he's retired, out of the league, and playing pick up ball with HS kids back near New Orleans.  Additionally, we're deep with big men.  Powe was amongst the most productive bench big men this year.  I'm not exaggerating.. he's in the top 5 easy.  Big Baby was giving us solid minutes, too.  So we got a solid 4 man rotation at the big spots of KG, Perk, Powe, and Big Baby.  Why mess with PJ?  He's worse than all of them and doesn't fill an immediate need.

I'm sick and tired of hearing about Doc reviewing film when it was patently clear that every time PJ saw time versus Detroit, we suffered on both ends.  The stats reflect this as well (check out +/-'s, or game flows over at popcornmachine.net).  He was OK versus Cleveland mainly because they also had slow, crappy big men (namely Wallace and Varejao).  Notice how he didn't play in ATL? It's because they blew past him.  Doc was smart there.  Not sure what changed his mind while he got smoked by Detroit's front line.

PJ seeing major minutes versus LA will be an absolute disaster.  He can't hang with any of them.  And worst of all, he's an offensive zero.  Whenever he's in the lineup, our offense struggles mightily. 

[cmoney]

he still provided the best big man defense off the bench.

this is most definitely false.  He blows as many rotations as someone like Powe does, just Doc doesn't immediately act like a p---ed off granddad with him and yank him.  "veteran", "experience", and all that.  Whenever Sheed actually got going, it was because PJ was guarding him.  Or if they put him on McDyess, we saw McDyess stroking 15-17 footers with no one near him.

And here's a major [dang]ing bit of evidence:  he's HORRIBLE at crashing the glass.  Powe, Baby, etc.. when that shot goes up, they aren't worried about their man standing 15 feet from the hoop anymore.. they're going to go get that rebound.  PJ constantly was caught sleeping 12-15 feet from the hoop as Perk went 1v2 on the defensive glass. 

I just don't get why everyone is ignoring how [dang] productive Powe was all season long.  Game 6 was infuriating.. KG gets in foul trouble, and Powe comes in and IMMEDIATELY starts impacting the game.  Forces a TO (didn't go in the books because we never got possession and Rondo I think knocked it out of bounds), then gets to the line twice.  He's the only celtic big man who is guaranteed to go right at the basket if he catches it anywhere inside of 4 feet.  None of this extra pass crap we keep seeing KG pull, or even PJ on that one woeful drive of his.  Goes up with two hands and he's trying to dunk it, and if not he's going to the line.

So we're all sitting around like, "see! This is why you play the kid."  And of course Doc goes right back to PJ in the 3rd quarter, and the Celtics proceed to go down 10 as we give up buckets on one end and struggle to score on the other.