Doc calling out bloggers

[Mr October]

 

Of course, blaming the team's record on injuries shows exactly where your head is at.

No.  I blame last year on injuries, youth and heavy incentive to lose.  I'm not saying Doc is a great coach, but he was not the reason for last season.  As you see, a very similar team to last year's Celtics took the court in Minnesota, and much the same thing happened.  And that was with an extra year of experience for Big Al, Gomes, etc.  It's been proven over and over again in this league.  Youth doesn't win.  Especially when that youth is compiled from the late 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

But the whole point of this thread, or I should say the length of this thread is that people are getting so bent out of shape because Doc pretty much just said he's not gonna listen to what a bunch of people on blogs are saying.  And why should he??  Of course he makes mistakes.  He makes mistakes every game, win or lose.  Every coach does.  But as much as some like to harp on every mistake he makes.  There's even more mistakes that we don't even notice.  There's also great moves that we don't even notice.  But you know who I'm sure does notice them, either during the games or in watching film?  Doc and his assistants.  They know more about what goes on in practice, the games, huddles, etc. than anyone else.

But as I said before.  We have every right to criticize.  We just shouldn't get so bent out of shape when Doc does it back.

...and on top of that, last year was a tank job. And Doc did a great job spinning and managing the tanking. None of us like tanking, but after the injuries hit, it was the smart way to play out the season.

[nickagneta]

I think you can criticize Doc.  And he can clearly laugh back at the thought that bloggers actually think their opinion merits being heard. 

While everyone has the right, it does take away from the credibility of this site.  This is particularly true for sharp criticism. It is somewhat misleading, that people who don't even have a clue, dominate the commenting, and in a sense dominate the overall opinion of this site. 

We do look like fools.   Maybe the overall rating of the opinion of this site, is that we obviously are.

 

Speak for yourself.  There are plenty of intelligent and articulate people on here who back their opinions up with facts, statistics, and close personal observation.  If you look at those who "dominate the commenting", at least in the forums, there is a wide mix of opinion on not just Doc, but on a whole host of other issues, as well.  For as many sharp, biting criticisms of Doc as there are, you'll find an equal number of articulate and intelligent (if misguided ) defenses of him.

In terms of the blog's credibility, you won't find many blogs with a more articulate and dedicated staff, starting with Jeff and Steve.  They're both top notch, as are all the other front page contributors.

TP Roy very well said.

The credibility of this community should not be being called into question simply because Doc doesn't take our criticisms or compliments seriously.

Everyone here has a right to their opinion and to voice it here at Celticsblog, easily one of the most dynamic, interesting, diverse and knowledgable basketball bogs one could find anywhere in cyberspace. If a person decides they don't want our advice or critiques, so be it. But the credibilty of this site for what it represents and brings to the table should never be put into question.

[Scintan]

 

Of course, blaming the team's record on injuries shows exactly where your head is at.

No.  I blame last year on injuries, youth and heavy incentive to lose.  I'm not saying Doc is a great coach, but he was not the reason for last season.  As you see, a very similar team to last year's Celtics took the court in Minnesota, and much the same thing happened.  And that was with an extra year of experience for Big Al, Gomes, etc.  It's been proven over and over again in this league.  Youth doesn't win.  Especially when that youth is compiled from the late 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

But the whole point of this thread, or I should say the length of this thread is that people are getting so bent out of shape because Doc pretty much just said he's not gonna listen to what a bunch of people on blogs are saying.  And why should he??  Of course he makes mistakes.  He makes mistakes every game, win or lose.  Every coach does.  But as much as some like to harp on every mistake he makes.  There's even more mistakes that we don't even notice.  There's also great moves that we don't even notice.  But you know who I'm sure does notice them, either during the games or in watching film?  Doc and his assistants.  They know more about what goes on in practice, the games, huddles, etc. than anyone else.

But as I said before.  We have every right to criticize.  We just shouldn't get so bent out of shape when Doc does it back.

Then you had no call to criticize my post or comment derisively about it, since it wasn't your 'point'.

[fairweatherfan]

<megasnip>

I implied nothing of the kind, as you well know.  As for "harping on last season", go back and notice that my comments about last season are in response to people pointing to this season as proof of Rivers' coaching ability.  You should at least be intellectually honest if you're going to attack me over something as plainly responsive as my 'last season' posts have been. 

Of course, blaming the team's record on injuries shows exactly where your head is at.

You're missing the fact that if he has an obligation to consider last year's record in evaluating Doc, you have to consider this year's record just as strongly in your evaluation.  If he's unfairly downplaying last year's record to support his positive opinion of Doc, and you're downplaying this year's record to support your negative opinion, then you're both being intellectually dishonest.

How so, when I said that 55 wins would be a successful season?

You're insisting he consider last season when evaluating Doc as a coach - he's insisting you consider this season.  Neither of you are doing it, because the season in question contradicts your pre-existing opinions of him.  You may agree this is a successful season, but it's obvious you don't think Doc is a good coach (you said as much in what I think was your first post) - which means you're downplaying this season as being indicative of Doc's ability.  Which is exactly what you're accusing CelticsWhat of doing with last season.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle - Doc's not 66-win good all by himself (I doubt anyone is), but he's certainly not 24-win bad either (I doubt all but the very worst in NBA history are). 

I insisted no such thing.  People pointed to this season's record and the team's being in the conference finals as a sort of proof that Rivers was a good coach.  I responded by asking about last year and the lousy record. That wasn't intellectually dishonest in the least, that was pointing out something they were deliberately choosing to overlook.

Ok, are you completely unaware that you're doing the EXACT SAME THING with this year's team - deliberately overlooking a wildly successful year in evaluating the coach?  And yes, I know you said it is a successful year, it would be hard to say otherwise, but it's obvious you aren't giving Doc much credit for it, which is exactly the same as not giving him blame for last year's record, which is what you're calling his supporters out for.  The intellectual dishonesty isn't in telling others they aren't considering last year's record enough, it's in simultaneously doing the same thing yourself with this year's record.

Anyway, this is swiftly turning into a p---ing contest, which I don't want, especially on a game day like this.  I don't think anyone on either side is gonna change their mind, just thought I'd try to point something out about the way things were being argued here.

[CelticsWhat35]

 

Of course, blaming the team's record on injuries shows exactly where your head is at.

No.  I blame last year on injuries, youth and heavy incentive to lose.  I'm not saying Doc is a great coach, but he was not the reason for last season.  As you see, a very similar team to last year's Celtics took the court in Minnesota, and much the same thing happened.  And that was with an extra year of experience for Big Al, Gomes, etc.  It's been proven over and over again in this league.  Youth doesn't win.  Especially when that youth is compiled from the late 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

But the whole point of this thread, or I should say the length of this thread is that people are getting so bent out of shape because Doc pretty much just said he's not gonna listen to what a bunch of people on blogs are saying.  And why should he??  Of course he makes mistakes.  He makes mistakes every game, win or lose.  Every coach does.  But as much as some like to harp on every mistake he makes.  There's even more mistakes that we don't even notice.  There's also great moves that we don't even notice.  But you know who I'm sure does notice them, either during the games or in watching film?  Doc and his assistants.  They know more about what goes on in practice, the games, huddles, etc. than anyone else.

But as I said before.  We have every right to criticize.  We just shouldn't get so bent out of shape when Doc does it back.

Then you had no call to criticize my post or comment derisively about it, since it wasn't your 'point'.

"The ironing is delicious."

[Scintan]

Ok, are you completely unaware that you're doing the EXACT SAME THING with this year's team - deliberately overlooking a wildly successful year in evaluating the coach?  And yes, I know you said it is a successful year, it would be hard to say otherwise, but it's obvious you aren't giving Doc much credit for it, which is exactly the same as not giving him blame for last year's record, which is what you're calling his supporters out for.  The intellectual dishonesty isn't in telling others they aren't considering last year's record enough, it's in simultaneously doing the same thing yourself with this year's record.

Anyway, this is swiftly turning into a ****ing contest, which I don't want, especially on a game day like this.  I don't think anyone on either side is gonna change their mind, just thought I'd try to point something out about the way things were being argued here.

But I'm not doing the same thing at all, so your "pointing something out..." is simply flat out incorrect.  You seem to be overlooking that.  The Rivers defenders I queried about last season used just one season to base their argument about Rivers and his coaching.  I simply pointed to last season as a counterpoint to their argument, to demonstrate the folly of their position.  Surely, you must know Rivers record here in Boston.  Had I wanted to hammer the point you keep claiming that I'm making, I'd have pointed to the entirety of his Boston tenure.

My dislike of Rivers as a coach pre-dates his tenure in Boston, as I've made clear here over the years.  I have no need to hang my hat on last season.  Heck, I could just point to his being outcoached by Mike Brown last series rather than going all the way back to last year.

[Scintan]

 

Of course, blaming the team's record on injuries shows exactly where your head is at.

No.  I blame last year on injuries, youth and heavy incentive to lose.  I'm not saying Doc is a great coach, but he was not the reason for last season.  As you see, a very similar team to last year's Celtics took the court in Minnesota, and much the same thing happened.  And that was with an extra year of experience for Big Al, Gomes, etc.  It's been proven over and over again in this league.  Youth doesn't win.  Especially when that youth is compiled from the late 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

But the whole point of this thread, or I should say the length of this thread is that people are getting so bent out of shape because Doc pretty much just said he's not gonna listen to what a bunch of people on blogs are saying.  And why should he??  Of course he makes mistakes.  He makes mistakes every game, win or lose.  Every coach does.  But as much as some like to harp on every mistake he makes.  There's even more mistakes that we don't even notice.  There's also great moves that we don't even notice.  But you know who I'm sure does notice them, either during the games or in watching film?  Doc and his assistants.  They know more about what goes on in practice, the games, huddles, etc. than anyone else.

But as I said before.  We have every right to criticize.  We just shouldn't get so bent out of shape when Doc does it back.

Then you had no call to criticize my post or comment derisively about it, since it wasn't your 'point'.

"The ironing is delicious."

Only if you take my post out of context.  If you take it in context of the discussion, your post is the one involving the ironing, as you well know.

[Jughead]

I don't think Doc is saying you have to be in a field to criticize it - I think he's saying it's a bit foolish to give much weight to the opinions of people who have no first hand experience with the field.  I notice when this stuff comes up bloggers tend to read into it that they're being told to shut up somehow - they (usually) aren't - instead they're being told that they don't really know what they're talking about, they're full of sound and fury signifying nothing, as the man would say.

You are on the money fairweatherfan.  I am almost certain this is a shot at Bill Simmons and I have a pretty good source that says the organization is not so keen on Simmons (not surprising in the least).  In terms of Simmons' work related to the Celtics, I am not a fan either.  I stopped reading him around the time his baby was born (not insinuating a correlation, just giving a sense of timing as to when I lost interest in what he had to say).  Whatever problems Bill is having with ESPN right now, I hope he solves them, gets free of the four letter network, finds himself again, and asks for our forgiveness...

In terms of what Doc is saying with regard to bloggers, I'd say second to Peter May he has been the primary target of most of the negative press.  I've always been a supporter of Doc and believe that, for the most part, he is a decent coach.  Is he at the top of the list amongst his contemporaries?  No, he's not, but talent wins in this league and he's proven to lead this team to much success this season despite many doubters on both local and national stage.

Doc knows I am credentialed through CelticsBlog and we have had a decent rapport.  In doing the job you always remember that you are not making friends with the players and the coaches.  You are friendly to them, they are generally friendly to you, but you are neither friends nor enemies.  It's a business relationship. 

Doc has a good point here, some opinions of him are unfounded.  Ss it is with anything in life, the most extreme criticisms are usually wildly off base and unfair (enter BSG and the demands of the ESPN lifestyle).  I think there are fair criticisms of Doc, including his ability to make in-game adjustments and some of his handling of the rotations depending on the circumstance.  A counterargument for what can be seen as a weakness in terms of making those in-game adjustments is that he and his staff are conversely adept at making adjustments from game-to-game.  I subscribe to the old sports cliche' that things are never as good as they seem and never as bad as they seem.  However, if you remove the highs and lows from being a sports fan it is no longer any fun.

Doc has done nothing but treat me with a general sense of respect when I speak to him at the games.  We're not friends, he may not even like me for all I know (or care), but as long as he treats me with respect - I doesn't matter to me either way.

Where Doc went wrong here was in making a distinction between writers and bloggers and placing the emphasis on bloggers as being the ones lacking the requisite knowledge to make an informed criticism.  Many members of the traditional media have been as critical, if not more critical of Doc's abilities at times.  The difference is related to the level of tact employed in making such criticisms and unrelated to the level of knowledge.  There is one exception, and is what turned me off about Simmons doctrine on blogging, as there is most certainly an added benefit to having first hand knowledge of the team if you are covering them.

[angryguy77]

Here is something else to keep in mind:

This team got here on defense, thank you Tom Thibodeau.

Yea excellent point right there.  TP.  

I really don't care what Doc is saying.  He has a right to say that, just like we have a right to call him out on what we think he is doing wrong.  He is pretty much saying that bloggers can't call him out because none of us have played, coached, or have been boardcasters for basketball.  Well I guess that means Lawerance Frank shouldn't be coaching the Nets right?    Or Jeff Van Gundy shouldn't be doing anything, because those two guys never played basketball in their lifes.  Maybe Rick Majerus shouldn't be coaching college ball because he never played basketball.  It's just a dumb argument.  There are alot of people that know the game of basketball just as well as some people that have coached, commentated, etc.  While they may not know everything, nobody really does.  

Also you I don't think Doc is that  great a coach.  I think he's a good person yes, but not a great coach...not even a decent one really.  His success on this team is because he has 3 great players and TT as an assistant.  If he is such a great coach then why has he never one a playoff series until this year?  Don't tell me that he's never had a good team garabage because that supports my argument.  He was up 3-1 over Detroit in Orlando and somehow blew that one.  He couldn't win game 7 in Boston against Indy a few years back.  You are only as good as the players you have and even then Doc still makes it a rollercoaster ride.  

I will say that he has started to wake up lately.  It took him a while to figure out that House should be playing, but now he's back to not playing him.  I think Doc knows how to coach somewhat but it takes him forever to make adjustments when other coaches can do it in a half or w/e it takes him a game or two to realize it.  Okay I'm done with this argument, Doc just go out and coach the Celtics to victory tonight to shut me up until you do something stupid again.  

This is right on the money. He HAS 3 BIG TIME STARS more than most teams. He should not have a hard time coaching this team.

When I said he's given too much credit for them playing good together I belive that to be correct. If these guys were in the first 4-5 years of their careers and they played this way, then I would give him props. But the fact is these 3 are in the last part of their careers and know they have to put aside their own wants for this team to be great.

[CT34]

Doc Rivers is a funny guy.  He shouldn't be talking about bloggers he need to worry about the Piston press defense and how to break those traps with better ball movement. Doc should be talking to his team about winning tonight game and playing tonight game like it's a game 7.  

Doc if your reading this you suck at X's and O'x.  You've been out coach for the most part in this whole series and your lucky Ray Allen made big time shot in game 5 and your lucky time ran out in game 3.  Flip Saunders of all people is just killing you when it comes to out-of-bounds plays.  Look out tonight for even more press defense.  I hope you went over that with the team.  I hope you told the guys the way to beat the press is with the pass.  But who am I but some blogger, what do I know.

[wdleehi]

This is the favorite comment now from someone being criticized by a large group, 'they are bloggers.  they don't know what they are talking about.'



I don't want the people in charge of my favorite teams listening to us, the fans, on how to run a team.  They are suppose to be better then that.  Ainge has proven himself to be.  Doc has yet to do that. 

[DaTruth34]

No matter how you put it...Doc is right!!!

[BudweiserCeltic]

I don't know why so many people are getting angry at his comments, most of us here are NOT even bloggers, we form part of a forum and post in it. That's it.

[Brickowski]

When I go to a movie and it stinks because the director can't get good performances out of the actors, I feel perfectly justified in criticizing the overall product, even though I've never been a movie director.

When I go to the ballet and the choreography is bad and the dancers are out of step with the music, I feel perfectly justified in criticizing the performance even though I've never been a ballet dancer.

I've been watching the NBA for over 40 years, and I know good basketball when I see it, and when I don't see it, I have a pretty good idea where the problems are.  In the case of the Celtics, it's the coaching more often than not.

The Celtics are winning this year for two reasons(a) Kevin Garnett, and (b) Tom Thibodeau.  If it were not for those two additions, they would be losing again, and everybody knows it.

Rivers' offensive schemes and rotations are third rate. He has completely misused his bench in the Detroit series, and has been outcoached by Flip Saunders.  

[Mr October]

This is the favorite comment now from someone being criticized by a large group, 'they are bloggers.  they don't know what they are talking about.'



I don't want the people in charge of my favorite teams listening to us, the fans, on how to run a team.  They are suppose to be better then that.  Ainge has proven himself to be.  Doc has yet to do that. 

This is true. But I really think he's reacting more to the front page stories on ESPN.com, particularly from Bill Simmons. I don't think he's read any of the forums on Celticsblog....