Author Topic: Powe vs. Glenn Davis  (Read 74783 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2009, 12:02:22 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

  • Author
  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 498
  • Tommy Points: 79
With all due respect, I think you may need to due a little more research into how the game is played...no team game plans away from playing in the post - its a fundamental necessity.

This post runs counter to every professional coaching and team management philosophy in existence...teams don't run post plays when they don't have post players - every team is looking for them.

With all due respect, because the rarity of post players in the NBA, no NBA team in today's NBA gameplans their defense to stop post players.

What do most good defensive teams gameplan to do?

Stop the drive. Pack the paint. Do their best to stop penetration from the elite PG's and penetration from slashing wings.

Today's NBA is dominated by dynamic wings and dynamic point guards.

There are probably two Centers left in the NBA who play like real Centers: Yao and Al Jefferson.

The rest of the post players in the NBA are freaking wing players who post up other wing players.

NBA teams are not searching for post scoring from Center/PF anymore they are searching it from the wing spot or they are looking for a super stud point guard.

Why? Because today's NBA caters to the smaller type players, the quicker, the faster, the more flashy and dynamic.

The old, "pure" NBA era is gone. Days of McHale, Hakeem Olajuwon are over.

Post scoring centers of the future are going to be in the mold of Shaq and Dwight Howard: sheer physical ability and not so much skill.



...no...there is no way I can agree with that statement - in my experience its not even an arguable point. The league's big men have diversified their abilities, but post play is always the most dangerous because it doesn't rely on dribble penetration and it is the highest percentage looks on the floor - a quality low post player can completely destroy a team defense like no other threat on the floor.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 12:20:19 AM by BillfromBoston »

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #151 on: March 27, 2009, 12:06:45 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

  • Author
  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 498
  • Tommy Points: 79
...no...the team has only 2 low-post big men - KG rarely goes inside anymore and will do so less and less as the years progress because its a wear-and-tear type of offense.

I disagree with the philosophy that KG isn't a post up player, he may not score in the low post, but he scores from the post. And it doesn't matter if he posts up from 10 feet or 5 feet, if he is scoring and converting at a high rate, it's still a score from the post.

Sure, Powe and Perk may get deeper into the paint and may shoot their shots from 2 feet as opposed to KG's 10 or 15 feet, but KG can convert at a high rate from his range....Powe and Perk NEED to get close to score.

BBD isn't fast, but he is quick and he has the brain type to be in the same mold as Larry Bird, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen...all 3 of whom aren't as athletic as other current NBA studs.

But if your mind is quick and BBD has a quick mind, with additional experience he can score in the post or get to the cup with as much regularity as Powe.

There is also not doubt in my mind that Powe can have a valuable jump shot in his own arsenal one day.

Both Perkins and Powe draw double teams btw - which is what makes them valuable - when both are left in strict one-on-one both convert at a very high efficiency.

In theory, both Powe nad Perk can draw double teams. I have yet seen that happen however. What I do see is Perk converting a lot hook shots and recently converting a lot of fall-away turn arounds, a la KG or more similarly a la Kevin McHale.

Even if either are doubled, I am not confident in either to make the pass out...Perk I have more confidence...Powe...is still a black hole.

Also, when we are a full squad at full health, no team will double Perk or Powe...heck they rarely double KG and KG gets the ball in the post more frequently.

This just says that our team is pretty [dang] dangerous when we are full healthy...that opposing teams would allow KG, Perk, and Powe to go 1 on 1 each opportunity that may arise.

The logic behind this post is sound, but the reasoning is fantasy - you can like Davis all you want, but post play is perhaps the rarest and most valuable commodity in the NBA.

I agree, post play in it's purest form is indeed the rarest commodity in the NBA.

The most valuable commodity in the NBA, however are: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Paul Pierce, CP3, Deron Williams, Rajon Rondo etc. (Al Jefferson, Yao Ming, Kendrick Perkins, Leon Powe = not as valuable).

Heck, Mark Cuban felt Dirk was more valuable than Shaq...but ya, that was Mark Cuban....



Less than 10% of KG's offense is in the post - he is a spot shooter/cut/pick-and-pop in that order - they use his post game very selectively these days. His most frequent post play is his turn-around baseline jumper, which he doesn't use very often.

KG has become almost exclusively a high-post facilitator and a spot-shot man. He's great in the post, but the team is more interested in his defense and health than they are grinding him into dust.

Perk and Powe are the low post men, and contrary to your previous statement, all the champions of the past 20 years had great post play with the exception of Detroit....post play is as relevant as ever.

The notion you have of Davis operating "just as good" as Powe in the future is entirely speculative at this point and i've seen scant evidence of that ability - he is constantly getting himself into trouble when attacking a set defense and he finishes extremely poorly in these situations - bottom 5th in the league in terms of efficiency.

Now, maybe he builds out some type of go-to move - the fall-away would be my guess - he could then fake and go step-through.

But to date he has looked his best when attacking a defense in motion - when the defense is set he has really struggled. Powe does basically all of his primary offense off a set defense - though his pick-and-roll usage has gone up recently, which is nice.

I like both players - Davis has finally shown me something i can hang my hat on - that face-up J is his key to building an offensive identity.

But you can count on one hand the number of low-post undersized 4's - hell, you may be able to count on one finger - undersized 4's rely on face-up shooting - which is what makes Powe so unique.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 12:25:17 AM by BillfromBoston »

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #152 on: March 27, 2009, 12:15:23 AM »

Offline BillfromBoston

  • Author
  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 498
  • Tommy Points: 79

You have heard of the Power Forward position, right?  Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudemire, Pau Gasol, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitzki, etc would all like to remind you of their existence at this time.  

I have heard of those guys, but all of the guys you mention can hit jumpers and take jumpers.

Boozer = 51% jumpers / 42% close
Amare = 55% jumpers / 27% close
Pau Gasol = 41% jumpers / 41% close
Brand  = 71% jumpers / 24% close
Nowitzski = 85% jumpers / 13% close
Duncan = 58% jumpers / 37% close
Al Jefferson = 51% jumpers / 41% close

Powe = 22% jumpers / 59% close
Yao = 38% jumpers / 50% close


I agree that centers are primarily defensive players more often than not now, but saying that the post is so rare now isn't true at all.

The post IS rare, because even the guys you think are playing in the post and scoring from the post aren't doing it as much as you think they are.

I mean when Lebron is taking more shots on the inside than Duncan is and when both Brand and Amare are taking more shots as jumpers than Lebron or Wade are...well that just says a lot about the state of today's NBA.

Not all post play end in shots that are termed 'close'.  Many post players operate out of the high post, which results in less layups and more jumpers.  KG's favorite post move is a fadeaway jumper, but that doesn't mean it's not a post move.  Also, Dirk wasn't a very good example on my part - while he's certainly capable at scoring out of the post, that's not his first option.

If you look at the splits of all those aforementioned players they all had a much higher percentage of post shots earlier in their career - as they developed they increased their percentage of jump shots.

The 82 games numbers don't differentiate a post play from a drive off the face-up or a turn-around off the post - it is a rough approximation of scoring inside to outside with no detail on what the move was...

By the time Perk and Powe are a couple years older their splits will be much closer to the older vets - hell, Brand use to be almost all post, now he relies on his face up and fall-away almost exclusively...with age comes diversity.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2009, 12:21:56 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8676
  • Tommy Points: 1138
Powe or Giant Baby Hmmmmmmmmm.  Well I'll say this. Powe is a better Offensive player for sure. He doesn't have a lot of moves but he always finds the Blue sky, Like Tommy says.

But the Big Fat Baby, Usually gets more minutes, which means the coach likes him better. Fat Baby can really move his Feet with the best of the four and fives of the game. Defense No question goes to Fat Baby.

Fat Baby is a better passer, and midrange shooter. Powe is great on the Offensive boards. Powe is unreal at getting to the Line 256 attempts. Ray Allen had 237 Kg had 132.  Powe was #2 on the team behind pierce's 500 attempts.  Very nice indeed.

Oh and he's played less than 1200 minutes while Ray has played 2600 minutes.

Which brings us to Minutes. Powe 1183 minutes. Fat Baby 1323.  So I think Fat Baby is about 140 minutes better than Powe.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis/Bill from Boston
« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2009, 12:44:18 AM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
Bill,

You must have been a coach or a scout or both in a previous life!   :)


How would you know so much about Powe, especially when he was in college, when you live in Boston?


Always enjoy your posts, especially those about Powe.




Simple, I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years - 97 to 2007...

you know the SF comedy group Killing My Lobster?

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis/Bill from Boston
« Reply #155 on: March 27, 2009, 12:06:49 PM »

Offline expobear

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 287
  • Tommy Points: 27
Bill,

You must have been a coach or a scout or both in a previous life!   :)


How would you know so much about Powe, especially when he was in college, when you live in Boston?


Always enjoy your posts, especially those about Powe.




Simple, I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years - 97 to 2007...


So you didn't like the Bay Area?   :)

Where abouts did you live?

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2009, 10:33:48 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
Some people might find this interesting.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090325


Offensively speaking, Powe has produced 3.1 extra wins over the average NBDL replacement power forward, which puts him at 133rd out of 327 qualified players.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?qual=true&sort=ewa&league=nba&page=3&seasonType=2&qualCnt=49&qualIndex=100


Davis has cost the Celtics -1.2 wins this season, for 310th out of 327
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?qual=true&sort=ewa&league=nba&page=7&seasonType=2&qualCnt=135&qualIndex=406



The Celtics have 4 in the top 50:
26, Allen, 9.5 wins
29, Pierce, 9.3 wins
32, Rondo, 9.1 wins
35, Garnett, 8.7 wins


James leads the league at 28.5.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=ewa&pos=all&seasonType=2

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #157 on: March 27, 2009, 10:35:38 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
Some people might find this interesting.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090325


Offensively speaking, Powe has produced 3.1 extra wins over the average NBDL replacement power forward, which puts him at 133rd out of 327 qualified players.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?qual=true&sort=ewa&league=nba&page=3&seasonType=2&qualCnt=49&qualIndex=100


Davis has cost the Celtics -1.2 wins this season, for 310th out of 327
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?qual=true&sort=ewa&league=nba&page=7&seasonType=2&qualCnt=135&qualIndex=406



The Celtics have 4 in the top 50:
26, Allen, 9.5 wins
29, Pierce, 9.3 wins
32, Rondo, 9.1 wins
35, Garnett, 8.7 wins


James leads the league at 28.5.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=ewa&pos=all&seasonType=2
Those stats are all based on PER. I'm not a big fan of that metric. Winning basketball has very little to do with scoring, which is what dominated PER. Its okay when looking for who will be voted MVP but other than that...

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #158 on: March 28, 2009, 12:32:40 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27260
  • Tommy Points: 867
argument is becoming pretty 2 sided. The final question and the one that matters most is who actually helps the team win. Davis no doubt does.

What powe does best is put his head down and try to dunk everything(also it hurts your eyes when it doesn't work) or stand his ground/take charges on the defensive end. But he just doesn't have the iq like baby does to understand the nuances of the game.

As i repeat like a broken record i don't want to lose powe but davis the one better to keep if we had to choose. He can fill in as a starter and play backup unlike powe who is your prototypical carl landry like bench player.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #159 on: March 28, 2009, 12:43:01 AM »

Offline ben

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 456
  • Tommy Points: 43
argument is becoming pretty 2 sided. The final question and the one that matters most is who actually helps the team win. Davis no doubt does.

What powe does best is put his head down and try to dunk everything(also it hurts your eyes when it doesn't work) or stand his ground/take charges on the defensive end. But he just doesn't have the iq like baby does to understand the nuances of the game.

As i repeat like a broken record i don't want to lose powe but davis the one better to keep if we had to choose. He can fill in as a starter and play backup unlike powe who is your prototypical carl landry like bench player.

If we have to choose I choose Powe because of his IQ and his understanding of the nuances of the game.  Sure Big Baby can chuck up a few jumpers but unfortunately Big Baby just doesn't have the IQ to play basketball.  Powe can fill in as a starter and play backup unlike Big Baby who is your prototyical Mark Madsen bench player.  It hurts your eyes when Big Baby is on the court.

I love these threads. 

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #160 on: March 28, 2009, 12:51:35 AM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1967
  • Tommy Points: 170
I say let's just keep em both. They're both starting to find their way. Their lack of height is starting to be mitigated more and more by their overall heart, hustle and IQ out there on the floor.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #161 on: March 28, 2009, 12:53:40 AM »

Offline LB3533

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4088
  • Tommy Points: 315

If we have to choose I choose Powe because of his IQ and his understanding of the nuances of the game.  Sure Big Baby can chuck up a few jumpers but unfortunately Big Baby just doesn't have the IQ to play basketball.  Powe can fill in as a starter and play backup unlike Big Baby who is your prototyical Mark Madsen bench player.  It hurts your eyes when Big Baby is on the court.

I love these threads. 

That's funny because I feel that Big Baby has the better basketball IQ and rarely depends on his strength or athleticism to perform.

Powe, who doesn't lack basketball IQ like say Mikki Moore, I just feel doesn't have as much BBIQ as Davis does which makes him slower on defensive rotations and assignments. But because Powe is more athletic he can get to spots to take a charge or over power an opposing player in the post.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #162 on: March 28, 2009, 12:55:05 AM »

Offline LB3533

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4088
  • Tommy Points: 315
I say let's just keep em both. They're both starting to find their way. Their lack of height is starting to be mitigated more and more by their overall heart, hustle and IQ out there on the floor.

I would love to keep both as well, because both are very useful players.

They both make our healthy team that much better.

The only thing that worries me is that other teams will try and pry Powe away with a lucrative contract.

A second thing that worries me is Big Baby's commitment to his work ethic.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #163 on: March 28, 2009, 01:01:33 AM »

Offline LB3533

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4088
  • Tommy Points: 315
...no...there is no way I can agree with that statement - in my experience its not even an arguable point. The league's big men have diversified their abilities, but post play is always the most dangerous because it doesn't rely on dribble penetration and it is the highest percentage looks on the floor - a quality low post player can completely destroy a team defense like no other threat on the floor.

I don't disagree with you, I am just saying that in reality defenses don't gameplan to stop the post player anymore because there just aren't that frequent post player scoring.

Inside post play and high percentage shots are fundamental to the game as you have mentioned, but if it is rarely occurring in today's NBA then it is not as fundamental to today's NBA game.

I also disagree with many analysts and experts who say that the mid-range game or mid-range shooter is non existent in today's NBA. There are in fact a number of mid-range players in the game today...it's not always 3 pointers or dunks.

Re: Powe vs. Glenn Davis
« Reply #164 on: March 29, 2009, 10:26:40 AM »

Offline Bankshot

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7540
  • Tommy Points: 632
I love BBD's game.  So much more versatile than Powe and more scrappy imo.... Davis hustles his arse off every second he's on the floor.  Davis gives you more than points and rebounds, he hustles enough to get steals, deflections, dives for loose balls and is generally in the right place on rotations most of the time.

He's our new Posey.  Not that he plays the same position, but that even though he doesn't put up sexy stats, he does the little things to help you win.  I think Davis is the kind of guy that championship teams will want to have on their bench, again, much like Posey.

I like both Powe and Davis, but those are some of the reasons I like Davis more.  When Powe isn't having a good game, he's pretty useless, when Baby isn't having a good game, he can contribute in a lot of different ways with his all around hustle....a perfect fit for a team like the Celtics.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson