If powe was 2 inches taller he'd be once heck of a pf in the league, definitely starting material. But his lack of height(honestly he seems closer to 6'7) really gives him trouble scoring down low against taller defenders. Powe's main strength on offense is putbacks and also ability to catch and dunk. Other than that it pains me to try to watch him operate downlow(he really has poor footwork, no fakes, no moves).
That being said not sure there is another player in the nba that works as hard as powe and thats why i like his play.
Davis on the other hand about the same height has unique set of skills that is impossible to find in the nba. His versatility is incredible considering he can guard the likes of shaq but also finese oriented pf's using his footwork. His post game is pretty much non existant but for guys like powe and davis who don't have much height , a nice jumper will take them a long way. Lastly bbd has higher iq. Especially watch when either powe or davis play team defence davis seems bbd he is one step ahead (though powe doesn't make alot of mistakes) . Also i personally think a player who knows how to pass has high basketball which powe doesn't know how to do.
In any case this is a comparison thread so just proving my opinion why'd i like to keep davis instead of powe if it came down it. I really don't think we can keep both short pf's(playing time issues), and also can afford to keep either(going to get big raises)
I think this post is typical of the reason why these threads always denigrate into arguments.
I absolutely hear what you are trying to describe when it comes to Davis - it is the same stuff that originally drew me to him.
But my philosophy is based on tangible, consistent results, something that Davis has now shown with his jumper and his defense.
There are tons of things i like about Davis' game and hope to watch develop into consistent elements that will make him the player I think he can be, but when you don't measure and weigh the body of work, you fall victim to the "highlight reel" memory flaw, where you take a couple memorable great things and turn it into an argument for what a player "can" do as if he does it regularly.
Davis has taken the next step by locking down his J and knowing the team defense - but he isn't doing all these other things that are "nearly impossible to find" with any level of consistency to date.
On the other hand, your assessment of Powe's post game is just flat out wrong when weighed against the statistical evidence - he is one of the most efficient post players in the league and the arguably tops off the bench.
Now, an argument about situational effectiveness may be a deeper argument, but there is no argument that he is very, very good at scoring on the block and if we are looking at both players games and future development I absolutely love where Powe is at with his post game and expect even more variety down the road.
As far as defense is concerned - Powe is ahead of Davis as a PF - by the numbers or the eyes - he is quicker with his latteral movement and knows how to use angles to prevent penetration outside or in --- Davis' advantage in team defense is pretty negligable at this stage, yet most in this argument continue to evaluate these two based off where they started from LAST SEASON.
I have little doubt that Davis will be a long-term player in the NBA now - he's proven he can master a skill and develop a go-to game for himself...but Powe continues to be ahead of him from a production and efficiency standpoint right now and if the team is forced to pick just one to be the PF, I think Powe's no frills game has had the advantage in terms of consistency and results over the past two years...
...but again, this board has never succeeded in ever changing anyone's mind, so as always, we'll have to see how it plays out...
Both players can play and both have some chance to develop into starters for a playoff team - what the percentages are is what im trying to figure...
but BFB, when you're considering development and consistency, don't you think that you also have to incorporate what the team is asking the player to work on?
for instance, one could criticize Leon for not have his 15 jumper further along, but that's not really fair because that's not a shot they are really pushing for him to take.
on the other hand, like Doc said last night, they have been working long and hard on getting that shot for Baby because they know in their sets he is going to be wide open for that shot. and the work obviously has paid off.
as for Baby not yet being an efficient scorer in the post or better able to defend mobile PFs, the team isn't really asking him to do either of those things with regularity, so he simply isn't getting the time working on them.
basically the only time that Baby gets the ball in the offensive sets is in the high post to pass or kick-outs for this jumper he has been working on.
for Leon, they actually run plays for him on the block and dump the ball in to him. It's clearly something that they have been working on with him.
perosonally, i think the strengths and weaknesses of each of their games at this point is more a reflection of where they are putting their work in than an inability to do other things.
It's also why they don't have a duplicate set of skills and are BOTH useful to the team.
I agree with this completely - both players have been asked to focus on niche elements of their skill sets in order to carve out the most effective role for the team.
However, it tells me a lot that it was Davis that was chosen for jump shooting and Powe for low post - over the 3 years Powe has played and 2 for Davis, their efficiency metrics in the post have been a landslide in favor of Powe.
As jumpshooters Powe as superior to Davis' metrics up until about the first of this year, when Davis really got a handle on it through his hard work and repetition.
Looking at the results from past history and then looking at their physical attributes, I just can't see Davis ever matching what Powe can do in the post because the block usually relies on length and lift - two things that Davis doesn't have.
The jumper i have much more faith in Powe developing because of his track history with it before this season and the relative ease of which one can develop that shot barring massive fundamental flaws, which Powe doesn't have.
Now, a PF doesn't need a pure post game to score in the post. The threat of Davis' jumper should allow him to put the ball on the deck and take his man into the paint. He could be a brilliant offensive player in time.
I think Powe can be a great offensive player as well and I think his post game is only about 1/3 to 1/2 of what it will be in a couple of years - look to Perk for support of that optimism...hard work pays off.
I just like that Powe is already in 100% physical condition and can score against set defenders at a high rate. He also gets to the line top 10 in the leauge and rebounds 8th best amongst PFs...there are just so many measurable areas that Powe is already elite in, I like his potential a lot.
If Davis was willing to stay on for another 3 years and be a backup C/F with Powe and then the best of the two takes KGs job afterward and the other is first big off the bench, that would be awesome...I just think its not going to happen.
Bill,
I followed Powe in college quite a bit and I don't ever recall him having a jumpshot. His offensive game was strictly within 10 feet of the basket. I'm glad to hear you think he has the ability to shoot the jumper which would make him harder to stop if he develops that as part of his game but I don't ever recall him shooting much from 15 feet out. And when he did, it didn't go in very regularly.
I didn't see Leon play at all as a rookie for the Celtics so he may have shot more from the outside and perhaps this is where you're getting your assessment of Powe's jumpshooting ability. If you followed Powe for 5 years, you would have watched him in college. I don't think Powe's coach in college did much for his development....he just told him to go out and score and grab rebounds. There was no need to develop a jumper, as far as his coach was concerned.
Interested to hear your comments.
The jumper has never been Powe's primary option, but he's taken about 200+ over the past 5 years, which is plenty large a sample size to get a feel for the things you look for: consistency of form, arm/elbow positioning, hip and foot placement, arc, touch, etc...
Then you look at practice habits - watching a guy in pre-game shoot-around, finding out what he's working on in the off-season, etc...practice is big too - you see a lot more of a player's full game when the games don't count and players are allowed to expand their roles...we saw some of that with all the injuries.
Powe's biggest flaw on his jumper is that he shoots with his elbow lower than it should be and his arm out in front of his head instead of over it - that limits his range and has a tendency to put forward/backward drift on the shot due increased motion from the elbow to the wrist.
This flaw is more detrimental to shooting off the dribble as it increases the variables in play. However, set shooting this way isn't particularly bad as it is easy for him to repeat the same motion over and over, which leads to consistent shooting.
Powe has soft touch on his shots, if not optimal arc and when he attacks off the dribble he is good at getting to the rim, so he isn't as reliant on pull-ups as Davis will likely be.
Overall, its pretty easy to see that Powe can incorporate the 15-17 foot set shot into his arsenal in time - but it makes much more sense to perfect his low post game first...and when you shoot less than 5 times a game its going to be all you do at first.
