Did C's drop the ball this off-season?

[Celtics2021]

Honestly I know it's a mixed bag on the decision to trade JB I think the biggest issue where people felt Brad dropped the ball is on the return we got for JB.

 
I think this is absolutely correct.  I know that I felt we would get a lot more for him than Paul George and a mix of first round and second round picks.  The picks are looking better to me than they did at first, but still, I went from thinking we would get Giannis to having to "settle" for Paul George.

The other complaint that is potentially fair is the timing of trade.  Could they have gotten more for him if they had traded him a year ago or at the deadline.  The report was they asked GSW for (4) firsts, what MEM got for Desmond Bane, but GSW said pass.  I don't know if Brown's value was higher if they had traded him earlier, no one knows.  We all think he was worth more, but maybe not.

I am pretty sure he was not worth more, or if he was worth more it was only to teams that he then back channeled his way out of a trade.  Last offseason he had a torn meniscus; if he was worth more then than after this year when he had an All-NBA season then there is something odd going on with trade values.  I find it inconceivable that the Celtics talked to probably a dozen teams and did not have a good idea what JB was valued at.  They clearly started with a much higher asking price and could not get close to it, and went with what they thought was best.  And something was going on that we may never know that made the Celtics 100% committed to trading him no matter what.  I do not think it was the dollars that made it urgent.

[Roy H.]

Honestly I know it's a mixed bag on the decision to trade JB I think the biggest issue where people felt Brad dropped the ball is on the return we got for JB.

 
I think this is absolutely correct.  I know that I felt we would get a lot more for him than Paul George and a mix of first round and second round picks.  The picks are looking better to me than they did at first, but still, I went from thinking we would get Giannis to having to "settle" for Paul George.

The other complaint that is potentially fair is the timing of trade.  Could they have gotten more for him if they had traded him a year ago or at the deadline.  The report was they asked GSW for (4) firsts, what MEM got for Desmond Bane, but GSW said pass.  I don't know if Brown's value was higher if they had traded him earlier, no one knows.  We all think he was worth more, but maybe not.

I am pretty sure he was not worth more, or if he was worth more it was only to teams that he then back channeled his way out of a trade.  Last offseason he had a torn meniscus; if he was worth more then than after this year when he had an All-NBA season then there is something odd going on with trade values.  I find it inconceivable that the Celtics talked to probably a dozen teams and did not have a good idea what JB was valued at.  They clearly started with a much higher asking price and could not get close to it, and went with what they thought was best.  And something was going on that we may never know that made the Celtics 100% committed to trading him no matter what.  I do not think it was the dollars that made it urgent.

The unrebutted reporting is that Brad started each negotiation with an insanely high asking price, causing most teams to quickly move on to other options which were coming off of the table extremely quickly.

So, perhaps you can assume that Brad took the best deal that remained on the table, but I don't think that in any way we can assume that Brad traded JB for the max value a team would have paid this off-season.

[Vermont Green]

I keep going back to the Desmond Bane trade.  This is what MEM got:

Orlando Magic acquired:
Desmond Bane

Memphis Grizzlies acquired:
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Cole Anthony
No. 16 overall pick in the 2025 NBA Draft
Phoenix's 2026 first-round pick
Magic's 2028 unprotected first-round pick
Magic's 2030 unprotected first-round pick
2029 first-round pick swap (top-two protected)

Why wouldn't BOS assume that this set the market for Brown?  This was an overpay, at least in my view, but I rated Brown as much better than Bane at that time (and still).  Maybe BOS should have traded Brown to ORL, I would assume they would be willing to pay more for Brown than Bane.  Maybe that is the ball that they dropped.

[Goldstar88]

I keep going back to the Desmond Bane trade.  This is what MEM got:

Orlando Magic acquired:
Desmond Bane

Memphis Grizzlies acquired:
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Cole Anthony
No. 16 overall pick in the 2025 NBA Draft
Phoenix's 2026 first-round pick
Magic's 2028 unprotected first-round pick
Magic's 2030 unprotected first-round pick
2029 first-round pick swap (top-two protected)

Why wouldn't BOS assume that this set the market for Brown?  This was an overpay, at least in my view, but I rated Brown as much better than Bane at that time (and still).  Maybe BOS should have traded Brown to ORL, I would assume they would be willing to pay more for Brown than Bane.  Maybe that is the ball that they dropped.

Just because the Grizzlies made a terrible trade does not mean every team is going to follow suit. I think if JB made $39M like Bane does, more teams would have been interested and the return would have been better.

[4THQTR]

I keep going back to the Desmond Bane trade.  This is what MEM got:

Orlando Magic acquired:
Desmond Bane

Memphis Grizzlies acquired:
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Cole Anthony
No. 16 overall pick in the 2025 NBA Draft
Phoenix's 2026 first-round pick
Magic's 2028 unprotected first-round pick
Magic's 2030 unprotected first-round pick
2029 first-round pick swap (top-two protected)

Why wouldn't BOS assume that this set the market for Brown?  This was an overpay, at least in my view, but I rated Brown as much better than Bane at that time (and still).  Maybe BOS should have traded Brown to ORL, I would assume they would be willing to pay more for Brown than Bane.  Maybe that is the ball that they dropped.

Just because the Grizzlies made a terrible trade does not mean every team is going to follow suit. I think if JB made $39M like Bane does, more teams would have been interested and the return would have been better.

You think the Grizzlies came up short in this one??

[Celtics2021]

Honestly I know it's a mixed bag on the decision to trade JB I think the biggest issue where people felt Brad dropped the ball is on the return we got for JB.

 
I think this is absolutely correct.  I know that I felt we would get a lot more for him than Paul George and a mix of first round and second round picks.  The picks are looking better to me than they did at first, but still, I went from thinking we would get Giannis to having to "settle" for Paul George.

The other complaint that is potentially fair is the timing of trade.  Could they have gotten more for him if they had traded him a year ago or at the deadline.  The report was they asked GSW for (4) firsts, what MEM got for Desmond Bane, but GSW said pass.  I don't know if Brown's value was higher if they had traded him earlier, no one knows.  We all think he was worth more, but maybe not.

I am pretty sure he was not worth more, or if he was worth more it was only to teams that he then back channeled his way out of a trade.  Last offseason he had a torn meniscus; if he was worth more then than after this year when he had an All-NBA season then there is something odd going on with trade values.  I find it inconceivable that the Celtics talked to probably a dozen teams and did not have a good idea what JB was valued at.  They clearly started with a much higher asking price and could not get close to it, and went with what they thought was best.  And something was going on that we may never know that made the Celtics 100% committed to trading him no matter what.  I do not think it was the dollars that made it urgent.

The unrebutted reporting is that Brad started each negotiation with an insanely high asking price, causing most teams to quickly move on to other options which were coming off of the table extremely quickly.

So, perhaps you can assume that Brad took the best deal that remained on the table, but I don't think that in any way we can assume that Brad traded JB for the max value a team would have paid this off-season.

Unrebutted reporting?  No one is even putting their name out there.  We have unnamed sources saying the Celtics went too high and scared teams off.  We have other unnamed sources saying their team low-balled and the Celtics never called them back.

What we seem to know with the most confidence is the Celtics were asked for three firsts and two young players in addition to JB for Giannis.  And the Heat traded 3 firsts, three young players, a swap, and a second along with Tyler Herro.  They also got Portis.  If we say Portis was worth a second, then we see the difference in value the Bucks ascribed between JB and Herro was a 1st-round swap and a prospect.  Ignoring the impossibility of the salary matching, would you have been more or less angry if we traded JB for Tyler Herro, Kasparas Jakucionis, and a swap 4-6 years down the road?  Because that was the implied value of JB.  I think it is worse than what we got.  If you want to say you would prefer that, I am not going to argue with you, but I do not think you can say it is vastly superior.  It is at worst in the same ballpark.

[Roy H.]

Honestly I know it's a mixed bag on the decision to trade JB I think the biggest issue where people felt Brad dropped the ball is on the return we got for JB.

 
I think this is absolutely correct.  I know that I felt we would get a lot more for him than Paul George and a mix of first round and second round picks.  The picks are looking better to me than they did at first, but still, I went from thinking we would get Giannis to having to "settle" for Paul George.

The other complaint that is potentially fair is the timing of trade.  Could they have gotten more for him if they had traded him a year ago or at the deadline.  The report was they asked GSW for (4) firsts, what MEM got for Desmond Bane, but GSW said pass.  I don't know if Brown's value was higher if they had traded him earlier, no one knows.  We all think he was worth more, but maybe not.

I am pretty sure he was not worth more, or if he was worth more it was only to teams that he then back channeled his way out of a trade.  Last offseason he had a torn meniscus; if he was worth more then than after this year when he had an All-NBA season then there is something odd going on with trade values.  I find it inconceivable that the Celtics talked to probably a dozen teams and did not have a good idea what JB was valued at.  They clearly started with a much higher asking price and could not get close to it, and went with what they thought was best.  And something was going on that we may never know that made the Celtics 100% committed to trading him no matter what.  I do not think it was the dollars that made it urgent.

The unrebutted reporting is that Brad started each negotiation with an insanely high asking price, causing most teams to quickly move on to other options which were coming off of the table extremely quickly.

So, perhaps you can assume that Brad took the best deal that remained on the table, but I don't think that in any way we can assume that Brad traded JB for the max value a team would have paid this off-season.

Unrebutted reporting?  No one is even putting their name out there.  We have unnamed sources saying the Celtics went too high and scared teams off.  We have other unnamed sources saying their team low-balled and the Celtics never called them back.

What we seem to know with the most confidence is the Celtics were asked for three firsts and two young players in addition to JB for Giannis.  And the Heat traded 3 firsts, three young players, a swap, and a second along with Tyler Herro.  They also got Portis.  If we say Portis was worth a second, then we see the difference in value the Bucks ascribed between JB and Herro was a 1st-round swap and a prospect.  Ignoring the impossibility of the salary matching, would you have been more or less angry if we traded JB for Tyler Herro, Kasparas Jakucionis, and a swap 4-6 years down the road?  Because that was the implied value of JB.  I think it is worse than what we got.  If you want to say you would prefer that, I am not going to argue with you, but I do not think you can say it is vastly superior.  It is at worst in the same ballpark.

When do we ever get named sources for any of this?  Shams doesn't name his sources except after a contract is signed (which is inevitably the player agent).

What you do see is a reporter stating "a source close to JB" or "a source from within the organization", etc.  If it's a credible reporter, you need to trust that those sources exist.

And, I've gotta say, your hypocrisy on this cracks me up a bit, since you're using the "back channeled his way out of a trade" narrative despite there being no credible sources -- named or unnamed -- for that.