Did C's drop the ball this off-season?

[Roy H.]

Even after reading all the posts, theories and articles online regarding the Jaylen Brown situation and the logic behind it, I still don't get why they had to make the Jaylen Brown trade as early as they did. Even if the situation had soured, Jaylen himself never demanded a trade and they could have held on to him and hoped another team would potentially bid on him in July.

I'd also argue that by keeping Jaylen, maybe Lebron doesn't even go to Philly with George/Maxey/Embiid and he goes elsewhere like Golden State. Instead, the C's made that awful trade with Philly and basically handed them Jaylen AND Lebron.

There wasn't any sort of deadline to make a deal and as we saw, it didn't even involve any draft capital from this season. So again, even besides the actual trade itself and return, what was the rush to make that deal with Philly?

Yes, they did drop the ball on this whole saga and I'm now a bit skeptical of Brad and Chisolm. These guys will get pestered with questions and critiques from the media and fans over the next year and it's deserved, just doing that press conference a few weeks ago doesn't suddenly make the drama go away.

Even if they have a good regular season, who has any hope they'll make a run? Mind you, they literally lost to this Sixers team last year in the first round of the playoffs and that team added our 2nd best player AND Lebron.

The only thing that makes sense is if JB was basically telling teams through his agent that he was not interested in going to their organization. There were several reports of this. So if that was the case, Brad had to pull the trigger and keep JB out of the loop. Based on Browns comments it sounds like that is what Stevens did.

I don't think there's any *sourced* reports, just vague speculation.  The sourced reports say that 1) JB didn't ask for a trade at any point, but 2) was okay with going to Milwaukee, and 3) Brad's asking price scared off multiple teams which pivoted to other deals.

Brad simply failed as a negotiator, and when their was only one suitor left, he took a bad deal instead of no deal.

I believe Lowe. I think Brad tried to do right by JB by keeping him informed and it backfired. I don?t think Jaylen wanted to leave Boston.

According to reports from NBA insiders like Zach Lowe and ClutchPoints, Jaylen Brown's camp gave intel to multiple teams that he was not interested in joining them, effectively steering potential suitors away from the bidding

First, Zach Lowe has never had many sources at all. But second, did you read his report? It wasn't sourced..

ADVERTISEMENT

"I think there were at least one or two other teams who might have been interested in Jaylen Brown and who got intel that Jaylen Brown wasn't interested in them and to maybe stay out of the bidding. I think Boston felt the circle closing," Lowe said.

That's an opinion / guess, not a report.

Brett Siegel, the NBA insider with ClutchPoints, also confirmed that the Trail Blazers were one of the teams that Brown refused to join.

Throughout this process, Brown was being informed by the Celtics which teams had interest in him. At the same time, Brown made it clear whether or not he held interest in playing for certain teams. In talks with the Hornets, among other teams like New Orleans and Brooklyn, Brown made it clear he did not want to be traded there, which added another layer of confusion for the Celtics to all of these trade talks.

Clutchpoints is garbage, on the same level as Heavy.com.  Discussion of this "report" was taken down on Reddit because it was debunked as fake.

[tenn_smoothie]

It's difficult to see the path forward with previous season's gameplans, but if Mazz is able to retool, we may be better this year.

The ball consistently stopped with Brown. The offense didn't move as smoothly. If George fits that position but keeps the ball moving and shoots a bit better, all the players may benefit with their efficiency - Pritchard, Tatum, and White especially, but the role players as well.

Plus, it seems like we are doubling down on rim runners with two of the best screeners/offensive rebounders/rim runners in the NBA. That is going to shift our offense away from what we had with Horford and Zinger in the past. Second chance points may mean higher efficiency on kickouts for our guy stoo.

Less one-on-one, more ball movement, maybe even more threes, and more shots at the rim. Although I don't think it will be the bad threes that we've come to hate (like Brown iso threes). If the ball is moving the way I think it might, it may be beautiful basketball to watch.

I'm curious what our defense looks like. I'm hoping Hugo can take a huge step forward as a defensive stopper this year. We should have real rim protectors/rebounders inside for the full 48 minutes for the first time in a while. We've also invested in guys like Walsh and RHJ, who it I think could trend into being real defensive menaces, especially next to versatile guys like Tatum, George, and White.

I think our brand of basketball shifts a bit this season, and I think they will be more enjoyable to watch. Whether they will be more effective or not in the playoffs remains to be seen, but as many have pointed out, our brand of basketball/offense had not worked with Brown for 3 of the past 4 seasons. A shift was needed. I don't think we expected that to require Brown to be in a different color jersey, but management did.

Overall, I know a lot of fans hate the moves, but I'm looking forward to watching this team more than did either of the past two off-seasons. I'm looking forward to the new play style, limited isos, more ball movement, and more development from the young guys.

You bring up some interesting points. I can only hope your optimism for what would be some welcome changes can come to fruition.

My fears concern two individuals. Tatum and Mazzulla.

While Jaylen Brown was the worst ball stopper in the offense, Tatum has not been not that far behind him. I've lost count of the number of times the ball would be moving beautifully only to land in Tatum's hands and stop. What he did with the ball from there was sometimes more productive than Brown's results. Tatum is a much better playmaker and a better perimeter shooter, though maybe not as good at the rim. But just as often as creating a positive outcome, Tatum will go iso and habitually attempt contested 3's while his teammates become spectators.

As for the possibility of Mazzulla adjusting our offensive style, I don't see it. Mazzulla's stubbornness to prove he is right is even more of a problem than the offensive scheme he refuses to change, especially in the playoffs. If the playoff failure vs the Knicks two years ago did not produce significant change, then nothing will.

[tenn_smoothie]

I do not think enough has been made of what recent moves by the front office have done.

The Celtics window as a title contender is essentially over.

Stevens has said there is no post Paul George trade coming. Other than a fringe move here and there, this is the Celtics team.

Derrick White is 32 years old and our second best player. White has maybe two years worth of elite production left in him, after which he will hit another phase of his career. None of the younger Celtics players are anywhere near ready to contribute to a contender. So the Celtics will only have Tatum as a guaranteed elite player after the next couple of seasons.

Paul Pierce was 29 when the Celtics traded for Ray Allen & Kevin Garnett, Tatum will be 29 in March next year. Pierce already had Rajon Rondo, Kendrick Perkins & Tony Allen, where is that established young star core for Tatum? Where are the pieces that Stevens could flip for multiple established stars? They only exist in theory.

I am sorry to say but that horrendous Brown trade was the end of contention for a long time. What is ever scarier is that the next TWO drafts are viewed as either weak or extremely weak. Talk about timing.

I?d count them out this year but it remains to be seen what happens with PGs contract. And if 2028 becomes a top pick even weak drafts (and it?s too early to tell anyway) usually have some top 5 value.  And I may have misunderstood but I think you referred to Rondo, Perk, and TA as a star core (sorry if I got that wrong)? If I got that right, sorry but that bar can be reached this year.  I?ll take Q or Robinson over Perk; PP and Rondo are a wash; and Celtics TA is hovering not too far from a handful of our young wings.

Sorry, but Queta or Robinson are no Perk. His value was specific to that particular group - he was just what they needed to complement the other starters and brought a toughness that was an important factor in their success. Also, as much as I like Pritchard, he is not Rajon Rondo, not even close.

[slightly biased bias fan]

I do not think enough has been made of what recent moves by the front office have done.

The Celtics window as a title contender is essentially over.

Stevens has said there is no post Paul George trade coming. Other than a fringe move here and there, this is the Celtics team.

Derrick White is 32 years old and our second best player. White has maybe two years worth of elite production left in him, after which he will hit another phase of his career. None of the younger Celtics players are anywhere near ready to contribute to a contender. So the Celtics will only have Tatum as a guaranteed elite player after the next couple of seasons.

Paul Pierce was 29 when the Celtics traded for Ray Allen & Kevin Garnett, Tatum will be 29 in March next year. Pierce already had Rajon Rondo, Kendrick Perkins & Tony Allen, where is that established young star core for Tatum? Where are the pieces that Stevens could flip for multiple established stars? They only exist in theory.

I am sorry to say but that horrendous Brown trade was the end of contention for a long time. What is ever scarier is that the next TWO drafts are viewed as either weak or extremely weak. Talk about timing.

I?d count them out this year but it remains to be seen what happens with PGs contract. And if 2028 becomes a top pick even weak drafts (and it?s too early to tell anyway) usually have some top 5 value.  And I may have misunderstood but I think you referred to Rondo, Perk, and TA as a star core (sorry if I got that wrong)? If I got that right, sorry but that bar can be reached this year.  I?ll take Q or Robinson over Perk; PP and Rondo are a wash; and Celtics TA is hovering not too far from a handful of our young wings.

Sorry, but Queta or Robinson are no Perk. His value was specific to that particular group - he was just what they needed to complement the other starters and brought a toughness that was an important factor in their success. Also, as much as I like Pritchard, he is not Rajon Rondo, not even close.

You beat me to it.

Perkins was an elite role player, like you have said, he specifically fit that group. Perkins was also only 23 at the time and when Ainge moved him was able to acquire Jeff Green in return.

Tony Allen was an elite defensive player (3 x All-Defensive 1st Team)

And Rajon Rondo who was only 21 during their championship run,  is an elite All-NBA point guard only lacked in All-NBA appearances because he was playing in a stacked era (CP3, Nash, Kidd, Rose, Williams, Westbrook) & his ACL tear. I love Prichard but he is no where near Rondo.

[LilRip]

Lebron did NOT sign in Philly because of JB. He signed because of Maxey. If we kept JB, I doubt he would have signed in Boston.

He signed in Philly because of Brown and Maxey.  Shams reported that LeBron became interested after they got Brown.

I agree LeBron wouldn't have signed here, with the possible exception of us acquiring Giannis.  But, Brad made a poor trade to a division rival, which directly lead to that division rival becoming a contender.

Is Boston currently better than it was before the trade? No.  Is Boston closer to winning a title in the foreseeable future?  No.

agreed. could not have said it better.

Ehhh still just sounds like saltiness to me. I understand not liking the JB trade. But with the way the OP is written whereby the Cs dropped the ball because LBJ signed with the Sixers is some mental gymnastics.

Every year, there is going to be a champion. If Philly wins it with LeBron, I do not see how that is the Celtics dropping the ball. It isnt like Lebron was coming here in the first place even with the Jays. And if another team like the Spurs win, I also dont think the Cs dropped the ball.

The Cs FO needs to make the team better (from a team-building standpoint). I understand not liking the JB trade emotionally, but I think the Cs are in a better spot to compete and keep competing (vs keeping JB and being handcuffed to the Jays and then losing our meaningful depth in the coming years). I understand wanting to have gotten more assets and thats why this offseason wasnt a home run in my eyes.

But it was a solid B. Not bad. Not amazing. Definitely not drop the ball levels

To flip the questions: Is Boston currently worse than it was before the trade? I would also argue no. Is Boston farther from winning a title in the foreseeable future?  No, because the Jays werent going to lead us there with an increasingly worse supporting cast and limited draft capital.

[Neurotic Guy]

I do not think enough has been made of what recent moves by the front office have done.

The Celtics window as a title contender is essentially over.

Stevens has said there is no post Paul George trade coming. Other than a fringe move here and there, this is the Celtics team.

Derrick White is 32 years old and our second best player. White has maybe two years worth of elite production left in him, after which he will hit another phase of his career. None of the younger Celtics players are anywhere near ready to contribute to a contender. So the Celtics will only have Tatum as a guaranteed elite player after the next couple of seasons.

Paul Pierce was 29 when the Celtics traded for Ray Allen & Kevin Garnett, Tatum will be 29 in March next year. Pierce already had Rajon Rondo, Kendrick Perkins & Tony Allen, where is that established young star core for Tatum? Where are the pieces that Stevens could flip for multiple established stars? They only exist in theory.

I am sorry to say but that horrendous Brown trade was the end of contention for a long time. What is ever scarier is that the next TWO drafts are viewed as either weak or extremely weak. Talk about timing.

I?d count them out this year but it remains to be seen what happens with PGs contract. And if 2028 becomes a top pick even weak drafts (and it?s too early to tell anyway) usually have some top 5 value.  And I may have misunderstood but I think you referred to Rondo, Perk, and TA as a star core (sorry if I got that wrong)? If I got that right, sorry but that bar can be reached this year.  I?ll take Q or Robinson over Perk; PP and Rondo are a wash; and Celtics TA is hovering not too far from a handful of our young wings.

Sorry, but Queta or Robinson are no Perk. His value was specific to that particular group - he was just what they needed to complement the other starters and brought a toughness that was an important factor in their success. Also, as much as I like Pritchard, he is not Rajon Rondo, not even close.

You beat me to it.

Perkins was an elite role player, like you have said, he specifically fit that group. Perkins was also only 23 at the time and when Ainge moved him was able to acquire Jeff Green in return.

Tony Allen was an elite defensive player (3 x All-Defensive 1st Team)

And Rajon Rondo who was only 21 during their championship run,  is an elite All-NBA point guard only lacked in All-NBA appearances because he was playing in a stacked era (CP3, Nash, Kidd, Rose, Williams, Westbrook) & his ACL tear. I love Prichard but he is no where near Rondo.

Rajon Rondo was not an all-star pg in 2008 (not till 2010). Perk was a mediocre 7ppg 6rpg center and not as good as either Q or Robinson (taking both sides of the ball into consideration). TA was not an all-defensive team level player in 2008 - actually not until he was in Memphis - and was a turnover machine in Boston. 

2008 was the context of the post, not their complete careers. They were not a *star core* of supportive players, and the current team can match supportive players with them pretty easily. What the current team doesn?t have is the 2008 version of KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen.

[Roy H.]

To flip the questions: Is Boston currently worse than it was before the trade? I would also argue no. Is Boston farther from winning a title in the foreseeable future?  No, because the Jays werent going to lead us there with an increasingly worse supporting cast and limited draft capital.

Is there any reason we couldn't have signed Robinson or drafted JCJ after making the trade?  Obviously not.  So, the question is whether our roster is closer to contention with Brown than George?  Of course.  That's obvious.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

To flip the questions: Is Boston currently worse than it was before the trade? I would also argue no. Is Boston farther from winning a title in the foreseeable future?  No, because the Jays werent going to lead us there with an increasingly worse supporting cast and limited draft capital.

Is there any reason we couldn't have signed Robinson or drafted JCJ after making the trade?  Obviously not.  So, the question is whether our roster is closer to contention with Brown than George?  Of course.  That's obvious.

correct again roy

[LilRip]

To flip the questions: Is Boston currently worse than it was before the trade? I would also argue no. Is Boston farther from winning a title in the foreseeable future?  No, because the Jays werent going to lead us there with an increasingly worse supporting cast and limited draft capital.

Is there any reason we couldn't have signed Robinson or drafted JCJ after making the trade?  Obviously not.  So, the question is whether our roster is closer to contention with Brown than George?  Of course.  That's obvious.

But still, signing Robinson is part of the offseason and you cannot ignore that or cherry pick that. The signing was also made in quick succession with the trade, suggesting that it was all part of their offseason gameplan. So I go back to my main point that the offseason has not been to the level of dropping the ball. I think it was solid. And I do not think LeBron signing with Philly should change how we view the offseason the Cs had.

If we had a better return for Brown (like Giannis or more first rounders), I think I would have said it was an amazing offseason.

[Vermont Green]

I had dinner with an old friend and sports junkie who is a Cavs fan.  We talked sports of course and he was very interested to hear my take on the Brown trade.  I asked him if he would have traded Mobley for Brown, he wouldn't say, but my sense was no.  I went into this thinking that Brown had more value than perhaps the league valued him.  But thinking more about it all, I came to a few conclusions.

If BOS had kept Brown, they certainly had a better chance to win a title short term than with Paul George, but I am guessing that BOS management/ownership didn't feel that the chances were good enough that it would be worth extending Brown and locking in for the next 5 seasons.  They decided to take a step back now in the hopes that they are better for it in the medium term.  In the short term, they are still paying George so there is not all that much they can do.  Medium term, they will have some salary flexibility and some draft picks to bolster the team around Tatum.  Will they end up any closer to a title than if they just kept Brown?  TBD.

It is a gutsy play, one I am not sure I agree with, but I don't consider it dropping the ball.  There is some cost consideration in this, but really, they were likely under the tax this season in any case.  I don't think that is the main driver for trading Brown, at least not for getting under the tax this season.  They didn't want the 2 max deals for the next 5 seasons.  I have said this before but to me it is more like with the Red Sox traded Nomar.  They came to the conclusion that they had gotten as far as they were going to go with Nomar and I think the Celtics came to that conclusion with Brown.  If Brown and Tatum were both locked in to max deals, the rest of the team would not be good enough.  They made a decision (which you can agree with or disagree with), they didn't drop the ball.