Jaylen Traded to PHI for PG, 2 First Round Picks & 2 Second Round Picks

[Who]

ESPN article -- good article, interesting quotes

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/49269428/nba-execs-react-boston-celtics-jaylen-brown-trade-philadelphia-76ers

"I mean, the guy got traded for less than Kessler," one general manager told ESPN, referring to the promising young big man who has yet to earn an All-Star bid. "That's baffling to me."

"You can't make sense of it other than they had to do something. They had to," a pro personnel scout said. "They couldn't bring him back. He wore out his welcome there. But it's a bad move. It looks bad, too. They panicked and made a bad decision."

Several executives said they thought that Stevens erred by accepting a pennies-on-the-dollar return so soon. They were puzzled by the sense of urgency, figuring that Philadelphia wouldn't find another taker for George.

"I'm surprised they felt so forced to do it right now -- to Philly and for that package!" the first general manager said. "I'm shocked. I don't understand it. I can't figure it out."

"Some of the suitors fell away and they thought, 'We've got to do something.' And this was their best offer," the president of basketball operations said. "Could they have waited? Could they have repaired [the relationship] with Jaylen?

"If you're in three or four weeks of talks and went from five suitors to one, maybe you get nervous. If you don't think [Brown's return to Boston] is tenable, it's better to make a bad trade than none at all."

On the stat guys vs Jaylen's production

The 29-year-old Brown is one of the league's most productive players. He ranked fourth in the league in scoring with a career-high 28.7 points per game last season. He also averaged career bests of 6.9 rebounds and 5.1 assists, joining Doncic and multitime MVPs Antetokounmpo and Nikola Jokic as the only players to average at least 25 points, six rebounds and five assists. And Brown, unlike Doncic and Jokic, is a good defender who frequently guards the opponent's top scorer.

"The stats guys in every room don't see him close to that -- probably the widest gap in the league," the second general manager said. "They're certainly telling you they don't think he's the sixth-best player in the league. Then the contract is really f---ing big, and the expectation to [extend] that is really big."

On Jaylen's personality

Several scouts and executives said potential trade partners were also concerned about the reasons the Celtics might be so motivated to move Brown in the middle of his prime.

The common perception is that Brown's unapologetically strong personality, outspokenness and reluctance to adapt his style of play factored into the Celtics' front office's decision that he needed to be traded now. That prompted worries about how Brown would fit with other teams with established stars.

"If Jaylen isn't happy winning Finals MVP, All-NBA, winning with the Boston Celtics, how's it going to be with us?" a president of basketball operations said. "If he's not happy there, what is he looking for? It scares teams."

That was an interesting comment. I wonder how many teams felt this way. I think this is what rubs some Celtics fans the wrong way about Jaylen too. So much success and it is never enough. He still feels unhappy with things despite all that success.

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

A comment on who is worth a supermax

"It's really hard to tie up that much of your salary cap in one player unless they're truly generational. And he's not even close to that. If you supermax Shai [Gilgeous-Alexander] or Joker, it makes sense. That's probably the list. The league is getting smarter now. And here's the thing: The dumb teams are also the cheap teams, so the Celtics couldn't take advantage of one of them."

I think they are wrong about this. Far more players than that are worth the supermax. Those guys are worth far more than what the supermax pays them. I think they are worth the full salary cap and then some. Close to $200mil. The supermax pays them around 30-35% of their value.

Anyway, that wasn't my point. It was the highlighted line at the end that I found interesting.

On the Giannis non-trade

Stevens' stubbornness under the circumstances befuddles some of his peers.

"I like Baylor Scheierman and Hugo Gonzalez, but those guys aren't moving the needle," the first general manager said. "I'd rather have Giannis and not those two than Paul George with those two."

Added the second general manager: "If you knew you were going to trade him, why not go all in for Giannis? It was still a hard decision for Milwaukee. If you knew you had to get rid of him and you were in the final two, why not put in a bit more?"

The Celtics didn't have contingency plans in place after missing out on Antetokounmpo.

hy didn't the Celtics go all-in on their offer to the Milwaukee Bucks for Giannis Antetokounmpo if moving on from Brown was deemed a must?

"I'm asking all the same questions," another general manager said.

[Ilikesports17]

ESPN article

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

I wondered about this too.

We supposedly started our offer to Philly at 4-5 firsts and Edgecombe. Wonder how many teams would have been willing to offer better than Philly's final package if we hadn't started that high.

Kinda doubt it tho. Its not like those teams would have actually not answered our phone calls if we kept dropping the price.

[Vermont Green]

So where does that put our cap situation? How far below the tax are we, and with how many players signed?

With Cenac signed and including Banton for now, BOS is at 15 players and is $571,248 over the tax by my math (others can check my math).  Banton's contract is non-guaranteed until Jan 2027.  So he can be waived anytime before then.  If Banton is waived, BOS will be $2,230,089 under the tax line and about $10.8M under the first apron (at which they are hard capped).

[Roy H.]

ESPN article

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

I wondered about this too.

We supposedly started our offer to Philly at 4-5 firsts and Edgecombe. Wonder how many teams would have been willing to offer better than Philly's final package if we hadn't started that high.

Kinda doubt it tho. Its not like those teams would have actually not answered our phone calls if we kept dropping the price.

I have said this a few times, but Brad really botched this negotiation. I'm shocked, too, because most people who negotiate for a living would tell you that.unrealistic opening offers -- either too high or too low, more often lead to a quick end of negotiations than they do a deal. And then he sent a self imposed deadline, ultimately selling low.  It was a master class in everything not to do during a negotiation.

I'm quite frankly shocked by the whole thing. Brad Stevens has made plenty of good deals, we argue arguably we have given up a little too much and some of them, but they were all fair and made us better.  This is the exact opposite of that. It's like he let the new interns run the front office for a week.

[Vermont Green]

OK, final thoughts on this trade.

The Players:  I expect Paul George to be better than a lot of people think.  Not as good as Jaylen Brown, but somewhere in the range of Al Horford to Derrick White, or more aptly, a combination of these two.

The Picks:  It really is the equivalent of two firsts with potential to be lottery picks.  I look at the swap as having the value of what it would take to trade up from say pick 25-27 to pick 8-10 (if this is how it goes).  If not a swap, it is just two picks.

Cap Impact:  With George declining the trade kicker, BOS actually saves about $3.6M.  That makes a big different right about now.  We'll see what they do with this flexibility.

All that said, the team is not better for this trade in my view.  Best case, maybe only a little less good this season and then with some decent picks to help with near term or future team building.

[byennie]

ESPN article

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

I wondered about this too.

We supposedly started our offer to Philly at 4-5 firsts and Edgecombe. Wonder how many teams would have been willing to offer better than Philly's final package if we hadn't started that high.

Kinda doubt it tho. Its not like those teams would have actually not answered our phone calls if we kept dropping the price.

I have said this a few times, but Brad really botched this negotiation. I'm shocked, too, because most people who negotiate for a living would tell you that.unrealistic opening offers -- either too high or too low, more often lead to a quick end of negotiations than they do a deal. And then he sent a self imposed deadline, ultimately selling low.  It was a master class in everything not to do during a negotiation.

I'm quite frankly shocked by the whole thing. Brad Stevens has made plenty of good deals, we argue arguably we have given up a little too much and some of them, but they were all fair and made us better.  This is the exact opposite of that. It's like he let the new interns run the front office for a week.

Perhaps, but this is serious rumor zone. Brad suddenly forgot after all of these years how negotiations work?

Also, his critics seem to simultaneously think Brown was in fact worth at least 3x 1st rounders and was a legitimate MVP candidate, yet even whispering that we wanted 4 picks scared off the entire league from negotiating for the ultra rare star made available? Something doesn't add up, even if Stevens did make mistakes.

[Roy H.]

ESPN article

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

I wondered about this too.

We supposedly started our offer to Philly at 4-5 firsts and Edgecombe. Wonder how many teams would have been willing to offer better than Philly's final package if we hadn't started that high.

Kinda doubt it tho. Its not like those teams would have actually not answered our phone calls if we kept dropping the price.

I have said this a few times, but Brad really botched this negotiation. I'm shocked, too, because most people who negotiate for a living would tell you that.unrealistic opening offers -- either too high or too low, more often lead to a quick end of negotiations than they do a deal. And then he sent a self imposed deadline, ultimately selling low.  It was a master class in everything not to do during a negotiation.

I'm quite frankly shocked by the whole thing. Brad Stevens has made plenty of good deals, we argue arguably we have given up a little too much and some of them, but they were all fair and made us better.  This is the exact opposite of that. It's like he let the new interns run the front office for a week.

Perhaps, but this is serious rumor zone. Brad suddenly forgot after all of these years how negotiations work?

Also, his critics seem to simultaneously think Brown was in fact worth at least 3x 1st rounders and was a legitimate MVP candidate, yet even whispering that we wanted 4 picks scared off the entire league from negotiating for the ultra rare star made available? Something doesn't add up, even if Stevens did make mistakes.

I think the one thing that we're sure about is that Brad had a self-imposed deadline.  And, I don't really understand that part at all.

And, some teams are going to reject offers as being unserious, and move on.  When Brad asked for Brandon Miller and four picks, the Hornets moved on.  When Brad asked Philly for V.J. Edgecomb and four picks, Philly responded with a horrible offer of their own. 

It's just a weird thing.  *All* reports suggest that Brad negotiated this like he had plenty of time for several back and forth offers and counteroffers, even though teams needed to prepare for free agency.  Those teams decided they'd rather take solid offers on lesser players rather than wait for negotiations to play out.

Maybe it's hindsight, but since there was apparently profound motivation to move JB, and to move him within a few days, I think negotiations should have been direct.  Give an offer that is realistic.  Otherwise, you're going to end up with the only offer left standing, which  was a very poor one involving one of the very worst contracts in the NBA.

Signed, somebody who has been very successful negotiating, as well as mediating, for almost 25 years.

[No Nickname]

ESPN article

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

I wondered about this too.

We supposedly started our offer to Philly at 4-5 firsts and Edgecombe. Wonder how many teams would have been willing to offer better than Philly's final package if we hadn't started that high.

Kinda doubt it tho. Its not like those teams would have actually not answered our phone calls if we kept dropping the price.

I have said this a few times, but Brad really botched this negotiation. I'm shocked, too, because most people who negotiate for a living would tell you that.unrealistic opening offers -- either too high or too low, more often lead to a quick end of negotiations than they do a deal. And then he sent a self imposed deadline, ultimately selling low.  It was a master class in everything not to do during a negotiation.

I'm quite frankly shocked by the whole thing. Brad Stevens has made plenty of good deals, we argue arguably we have given up a little too much and some of them, but they were all fair and made us better.  This is the exact opposite of that. It's like he let the new interns run the front office for a week.

Perhaps, but this is serious rumor zone. Brad suddenly forgot after all of these years how negotiations work?

Also, his critics seem to simultaneously think Brown was in fact worth at least 3x 1st rounders and was a legitimate MVP candidate, yet even whispering that we wanted 4 picks scared off the entire league from negotiating for the ultra rare star made available? Something doesn't add up, even if Stevens did make mistakes.

I think the one thing that we're sure about is that Brad had a self-imposed deadline.  And, I don't really understand that part at all.

And, some teams are going to reject offers as being unserious, and move on.  When Brad asked for Brandon Miller and four picks, the Hornets moved on.  When Brad asked Philly for V.J. Edgecomb and four picks, Philly responded with a horrible offer of their own. 

It's just a weird thing.  *All* reports suggest that Brad negotiated this like he had plenty of time for several back and forth offers and counteroffers, even though teams needed to prepare for free agency.  Those teams decided they'd rather take solid offers on lesser players rather than wait for negotiations to play out.

Maybe it's hindsight, but since there was apparently profound motivation to move JB, and to move him within a few days, I think negotiations should have been direct.  Give an offer that is realistic.  Otherwise, you're going to end up with the only offer left standing, which  was a very poor one involving one of the very worst contracts in the NBA.

Signed, somebody who has been very successful negotiating, as well as mediating, for almost 25 years.

Yep, it?s almost like he read the first chapter ?Start off with a high offer? and forgot to read Chapter 12: What to do when your negotiating partner needs to decide quickly.

[Kernewek]

ESPN article

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

I wondered about this too.

We supposedly started our offer to Philly at 4-5 firsts and Edgecombe. Wonder how many teams would have been willing to offer better than Philly's final package if we hadn't started that high.

Kinda doubt it tho. Its not like those teams would have actually not answered our phone calls if we kept dropping the price.

I have said this a few times, but Brad really botched this negotiation. I'm shocked, too, because most people who negotiate for a living would tell you that.unrealistic opening offers -- either too high or too low, more often lead to a quick end of negotiations than they do a deal. And then he sent a self imposed deadline, ultimately selling low.  It was a master class in everything not to do during a negotiation.

I'm quite frankly shocked by the whole thing. Brad Stevens has made plenty of good deals, we argue arguably we have given up a little too much and some of them, but they were all fair and made us better.  This is the exact opposite of that. It's like he let the new interns run the front office for a week.

Perhaps, but this is serious rumor zone. Brad suddenly forgot after all of these years how negotiations work?

Also, his critics seem to simultaneously think Brown was in fact worth at least 3x 1st rounders and was a legitimate MVP candidate, yet even whispering that we wanted 4 picks scared off the entire league from negotiating for the ultra rare star made available? Something doesn't add up, even if Stevens did make mistakes.

I think the one thing that we're sure about is that Brad had a self-imposed deadline.  And, I don't really understand that part at all.

And, some teams are going to reject offers as being unserious, and move on.  When Brad asked for Brandon Miller and four picks, the Hornets moved on.  When Brad asked Philly for V.J. Edgecomb and four picks, Philly responded with a horrible offer of their own. 

It's just a weird thing.  *All* reports suggest that Brad negotiated this like he had plenty of time for several back and forth offers and counteroffers, even though teams needed to prepare for free agency. Those teams decided they'd rather take solid offers on lesser players rather than wait for negotiations to play out.

Maybe it's hindsight, but since there was apparently profound motivation to move JB, and to move him within a few days, I think negotiations should have been direct.  Give an offer that is realistic.  Otherwise, you're going to end up with the only offer left standing, which  was a very poor one involving one of the very worst contracts in the NBA.

Signed, somebody who has been very successful negotiating, as well as mediating, for almost 25 years.

Agreed - I don't think it makes any sense unless:

• The relationship with Brown is untenable to the point where Stevens doesn't want him near the team at all
• The front office doesn't believe in the team with Brown and Tatum on the floor, and since trading Brown is the goal, the front office doesn't believe that Brown will improve his trade value over the season
• ownership set a deadline that the front office couldn't change

that's entirely speculation, but it has to be something like this.

[Vermont Green]

I don't know about all these blanket conclusions about how Stevens should have negotiated this.  I agree in that I don't understand the urgency, and that certainly appears to have led to accepting less than the best possible deal (hard to know for sure).  But if Brad is a bad negotiator because of this, then all the other teams that didn't come back with counter offers are bad negotiators also.

So if a team was legitimately interested in Brown but backed off because the initial ask from BOS was too rich, then they missed out because they should have easily been able to beat the PHI offer.  If this PHI was so bad and so under market, then these other teams with interest really missed an opportunity.  They over-played the low ball game and lost out.  They sat on their hands while PHI was able to close the deal for Brown.

What I am hearing from BOS is that they didn't think paying (2) #1s with supermax contracts was going to work moving forward.  What I suspect is that Brown was expecting the supermax extension on the day he was eligible for it, felt he deserved that.  BOS didn't want to extend him.  BOS could have just said no to Brown on the extension but that they expect him to honor his current contract.  They must have felt that would not go well so decided to yank the band-aid off.

[Roy H.]

I don't know about all these blanket conclusions about how Stevens should have negotiated this.  I agree in that I don't understand the urgency, and that certainly appears to have led to accepting less than the best possible deal (hard to know for sure).  But if Brad is a bad negotiator because of this, then all the other teams that didn't come back with counter offers are bad negotiators also.

Yes, when on a short timeframe making a lowball offer is bad negotiating, too.  Whatever team Chris Mannix was referencing seemingly falls into that category.

That said, if the other side is desperate to make a deal, then I guess making a lowball offer can bear fruit, since that's exactly what happened here.  Which is why Brad self-imposing a deadline was not smart.  No deal is better than a bad deal.

[Goldstar88]

ESPN article

On Brad's high asking price for Jaylen

That's a decision that multiple executives said backfired on Boston. "The asking price for Brown was so high that teams got scared away and moved on to other business," said an executive from a team that engaged in brief discussions with the Celtics. "There was no need to circle back."

I wondered about this too.

We supposedly started our offer to Philly at 4-5 firsts and Edgecombe. Wonder how many teams would have been willing to offer better than Philly's final package if we hadn't started that high.

Kinda doubt it tho. Its not like those teams would have actually not answered our phone calls if we kept dropping the price.

I have said this a few times, but Brad really botched this negotiation. I'm shocked, too, because most people who negotiate for a living would tell you that.unrealistic opening offers -- either too high or too low, more often lead to a quick end of negotiations than they do a deal. And then he sent a self imposed deadline, ultimately selling low.  It was a master class in everything not to do during a negotiation.

I'm quite frankly shocked by the whole thing. Brad Stevens has made plenty of good deals, we argue arguably we have given up a little too much and some of them, but they were all fair and made us better.  This is the exact opposite of that. It's like he let the new interns run the front office for a week.

Perhaps, but this is serious rumor zone. Brad suddenly forgot after all of these years how negotiations work?

Also, his critics seem to simultaneously think Brown was in fact worth at least 3x 1st rounders and was a legitimate MVP candidate, yet even whispering that we wanted 4 picks scared off the entire league from negotiating for the ultra rare star made available? Something doesn't add up, even if Stevens did make mistakes.

I think the one thing that we're sure about is that Brad had a self-imposed deadline.  And, I don't really understand that part at all.

And, some teams are going to reject offers as being unserious, and move on.  When Brad asked for Brandon Miller and four picks, the Hornets moved on.  When Brad asked Philly for V.J. Edgecomb and four picks, Philly responded with a horrible offer of their own. 

It's just a weird thing.  *All* reports suggest that Brad negotiated this like he had plenty of time for several back and forth offers and counteroffers, even though teams needed to prepare for free agency. Those teams decided they'd rather take solid offers on lesser players rather than wait for negotiations to play out.

Maybe it's hindsight, but since there was apparently profound motivation to move JB, and to move him within a few days, I think negotiations should have been direct.  Give an offer that is realistic.  Otherwise, you're going to end up with the only offer left standing, which  was a very poor one involving one of the very worst contracts in the NBA.

Signed, somebody who has been very successful negotiating, as well as mediating, for almost 25 years.

Agreed - I don't think it makes any sense unless:

• The relationship with Brown is untenable to the point where Stevens doesn't want him near the team at all
• The front office doesn't believe in the team with Brown and Tatum on the floor, and since trading Brown is the goal, the front office doesn't believe that Brown will improve his trade value over the season
• ownership set a deadline that the front office couldn't change

that's entirely speculation, but it has to be something like this.

Couple of other things to consider:

 1. Brad was looking into a Giannis/JB swap at the trade deadline. So he has been looking to move Brown for some time. We also don?t know if he had conversations with other teams back in Feb. I would not be surprised if he did.

2. Offseason injuries do happen and JB trains hard. If he injures himself and can?t pass a physical, Brad wouldn?t have been able to move him. Odds might be low, but it is still something that he has to take into account.

3. It was reported that Brown told Stevens that there were teams he was not interested in playing for. Teams will be reluctant to trade for a player that does not want to be there.
Per yahoo:
Brown made it clear whether or not he held interest in playing for certain teams. In talks with the Hornets, among other teams like New Orleans and Brooklyn, Brown made it clear he did not want to be traded there, which added another layer of confusion for the Celtics to all of these trade talks.

[No Nickname]

I don't know about all these blanket conclusions about how Stevens should have negotiated this.  I agree in that I don't understand the urgency, and that certainly appears to have led to accepting less than the best possible deal (hard to know for sure).  But if Brad is a bad negotiator because of this, then all the other teams that didn't come back with counter offers are bad negotiators also.

Yes, when on a short timeframe making a lowball offer is bad negotiating, too.  Whatever team Chris Mannix was referencing seemingly falls into that category.

That said, if the other side is desperate to make a deal, then I guess making a lowball offer can bear fruit, since that's exactly what happened here.  Which is why Brad self-imposing a deadline was not smart.  No deal is better than a bad deal.

Some of the teams with supposed lowball offers-- or refusal to meet Brad's highball offers-- (as you've said) moved on with other business as opposed to meeting in the middle.

Brad either made it be known that he wouldn't budge off of his initial requests, or he failed to circle back with them before they moved on to other trades/signings.

Overall, Brad woefully misjudged how to handle this one. 

The term "Best and Final Offer" sounds like it was never used when it should have been asked to each and every team.

Signed, another guy who's negotiated contracts for 30+ years.   

[Vermont Green]

Yes, when on a short timeframe making a lowball offer is bad negotiating, too.  Whatever team Chris Mannix was referencing seemingly falls into that category.

That said, if the other side is desperate to make a deal, then I guess making a lowball offer can bear fruit, since that's exactly what happened here.  Which is why Brad self-imposing a deadline was not smart.  No deal is better than a bad deal.

Where are you getting that Stevens "self-imposed a deadline"?  You are assuming this to be true but I don't know that anyone knows it to be true.  Maybe between the teams that Brown said he didn't want to go to (if this is true) and the discussions he was having, including with MIL about Giannis, he simply came to the conclusion that this is the deal he wanted to do.  He liked the draft picks or whatever.  Do you really think that he or Chisholm declared that thou shall trade Brown by July 4th?  And if there was an imposed deadline, why are you so sure it was self-imposed and not imposed by ownership or Brown?  Or maybe Philly said do this deal now or we will take this other deal for George that we have in hand.

[Roy H.]

Signed, another guy who's negotiated contracts for 30+ years.   

There really is an "art of the deal".