The current market for JB, which trade do you make?

[smicker16]

I don't thing people really fathom that these "poo-poo" platter type trade ideas essentially remove the Celtics from contention in the near term. Maybe you get enough other assets that in a year or two you can flip those for a star an get back into the title hunt but I have no idea why you wouldn't just roll with Tatum/Jaylen for at least another year and re-visit a Jaylen trade next offseason when he'll still have two years left on his deal. Why are people okay just burning a year of Tatum's prime to accumulate assets?

All of this assuming he wants to be traded at all, WHICH WE DON"T KNOW.

I am generally with you.  The one thing I come back to is the on-off numbers for Jaylen.  They have been negative four years in a row, and often very negative.  Somehow the Celtics were 4.6 points worse per 100 with Brown playing last year than on the bench.  One year you can explain away.  Even a couple of years.  Maybe there was some other deadweight he had more minutes with than his teammates did.  I used to convince myself that because Tatum and Brown alternated a fair bit of their minutes, and Tatum was better than Brown, even if Brown was good, that was part of it.  I very likely argued it in this board.  But Tatum was gone.  He had mostly new teammates.  Derrick White was still an on-off beast.  Of the top 13 players with the most minutes on the Celtics last year, Jaylen was 13th in on-off.  You have to get to the true garbage time guys to find people lower than Jaylen was.

And in the playoffs, small sample tho it was, it was way worse.  The Celtics were 31.4 points worse per 100 with Jaylen playing compared to off.

I think Jaylen is a terrific player, but it really is time to question the fit.  I cannot prop up Derrick White and Hugo Gonzalez by a stat while ignoring Jaylen?s deficiency in it.  So maybe a pu pu platter is good, if you can get a rotation big to spell Queta, a third quality rotation combo guard to go with White and Pritchard, and a versatile forward who is a notch down from JB, but maybe a better fit.

I do not think any random collection of players will do, but I can definitely conceive of some realistic trades that make the Celtics better despite losing the player with the most talent.

TP for the post. I am in a similar spot. Jaylen has been my favorite player for a bit but it?s tough to argue with the on/off numbers at this point. I used to make the argument in my head that it was due to alternating with Tatum but that clearly does not work. I do kind of wonder what this team would be without him in a way at this point. But it is still tough to see him traded for a package that is mainly around picks. Not sure how Trey Murphy?s on/off has looked. In the end I think he stays but part of me does wish there was a good deal out there to see the impact it would have to remove someone with a lower on/off rating.

[Who]

Chris Mannix thinks the situation with Jaylen Brown is worse than people think. He "feels" that this situation is different than past trade discussions involving Jaylen.

Mannix thinks it is different because of everything Jaylen has done. Won a Championship. Won a Finals MVP. Finished 6th in MVP this year. Led the team to 56 wins.

That Jaylen has done so much that he should be untouchable now. That he shouldn't still be in trade discussions.

Mannix also felt Stevens' comments which did not shut down the possibility of Jaylen being traded later on this summer for someone else indicates a deeper rift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmTgjOijFFA

Rachel Nichols felt BOS was not trading Jaylen because they thought Giannis was better but because they wanted to change the dynamics of the team. That the playoff series against Philly showed such weakness in interior play that BOS was essentially swapping two players of the same level for a player who better fits their needs (interior play). She had Jaylen as #5 on her MVP ballot.

Mannix reiterated his claim that BOS is looking at Evan Mobley. He added that he felt CLE was the only option for a Jaylen trade. BOS wants a high level big. Sengun isn't good enough. The only high level big that makes sense is Mobley. Jaylen & D Mitchell are close friends. A win-win scenario.

Mannix thinks JB's next contract extension makes him "basically untradeable" / cannot get good value for him anymore.

Mannix thinks this may have reached the "point of no return". Rachel Nichols thinks they just need to get into a room and talk. That everything will blow over. Mannix thinks the press conference by Stevens shows this is far from over.

[No Nickname]

Chris Mannix thinks the situation with Jaylen Brown is worse than people think. He "feels" that this situation is different than past trade discussions involving Jaylen.

Mannix thinks it is different because of everything Jaylen has done. Won a Championship. Won a Finals MVP. Finished 6th in MVP this year. Led the team to 56 wins.

That Jaylen has done so much that he should be untouchable now. That he shouldn't still be in trade discussions.

Mannix also felt Stevens' comments which did not shut down the possibility of Jaylen being traded later on this summer for someone else indicates a deeper rift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmTgjOijFFA

Rachel Nichols felt BOS was not trading Jaylen because they thought Giannis was better but because they wanted to change the dynamics of the team. That the playoff series against Philly showed such weakness in interior play that BOS was essentially swapping two players of the same level for a player who better fits their needs (interior play). She had Jaylen as #5 on her MVP ballot.

Mannix reiterated his claim that BOS is looking at Evan Mobley. He added that he felt CLE was the only option for a Jaylen trade. BOS wants a high level big. Sengun isn't good enough. The only high level big that makes sense is Mobley. Jaylen & D Mitchell are close friends. A win-win scenario.

Mannix thinks JB's next contract extension makes him "basically untradeable" / cannot get good value for him anymore.

Mannix thinks this may have reached the "point of no return". Rachel Nichols thinks they just need to get into a room and talk. That everything will blow over. Mannix thinks the press conference by Stevens shows this is far from over.

Hmm, what would a Brown/Mobley deal look like? 

Jaylen is demonstrably more valuable, but he's four years older.

Mobley just turned 25, he's only one year older than Yaxel Lendeborg.  But he's been in the league for five years and averaged 18/9 last year.  He's a career 31% three-point shooter.

Mobley's only made ONE all star game (2 years ago).

I'd say Cleveland should include a late first-round pick. 

[Celtics4ever]

I would ask for Mobley and Jaylon Tyson at a minimum, I think you would have to add Sam Merrill for cost matching as well for Brown.

[celticinorlando]

It is going to take a lot more than just Mobley if I am Boston.

I do not think this happens at all. Cavs are so buried under the cap they can't make many moves and Mobley by himself does not move the needle.

Merrill in the deal means you probably can trade Sam for something.

Tyson would be a nice addition.

Struss can be fired into the sun.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I would ask for Mobley and Jaylon Tyson at a minimum, I think you would have to add Sam Merrill for cost matching as well for Brown.

I think if we offer to take Struss into our TPE also, that's worth a significant value.

The Wolves just had to give up a much more effective and productive player in Randle in a salary dump. I think you have to attach at least 2 seconds like the Thunder did with Wiggins to trade Struss.

The Cavs have been in the apron multiple years now and need to look at a reset somehow.

I think you could argue that the trio of Harden/Mitchell/Brown could be a tough matchup for anyone in the East also.

[Silas]

I would ask for Mobley and Jaylon Tyson at a minimum, I think you would have to add Sam Merrill for cost matching as well for Brown.

I would like this trade and it works financially....(mobely) all star center, (merrill) running mate with Sam, and (Tyson) a young up and coming shooting guard.....do it Brad.

[Phantom255x]

So the Cavaliers wouldn't trade Mobley for Giannis, but they will for Jaylen??

[Celtics2021]

So the Cavaliers wouldn't trade Mobley for Giannis, but they will for Jaylen??

It is believable.  Giannis would not commit to an extension there, whereas JB has three years left on his deal.  Mitchell is also one of Jaylen?s best friends in the NBA, so there is less chemistry risk than Giannis.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

So the Cavaliers wouldn't trade Mobley for Giannis, but they will for Jaylen??

It is believable.  Giannis would not commit to an extension there, whereas JB has three years left on his deal.  Mitchell is also one of Jaylen?s best friends in the NBA, so there is less chemistry risk than Giannis.

Also, the Cavs really could not afford to take Portis too as they?ve been in the 2nd apron for two seasons in a row now, which I think the Bucks wanted to do to reset their books. The Cavs already need to dump salary this offseason. If they had to dump more, they?d be looking at like 2 1st round picks just to make their roster work.

[Who]

So the Cavaliers wouldn't trade Mobley for Giannis, but they will for Jaylen??

Jaylen is a better fit.

Jaylen with Cavs > Giannis with Cavs

--------------

Giannis would clash more with the ball-handlers D Mitchell and J Harden because Giannis wants to dribble the ball so much. Giannis will clash with J Allen because neither of them can shoot.

Jaylen doesn't have these issues. He can fit with D Mitchell & Harden. He can fit with J Allen.

[Who]

JB for E Mobley would be the end of the window.

We truly would be a 2nd round and out team from then on.

Don't do it Brad Stevens.

[jambr380]

I know a lot of you think the Cavs would need to include more, but I was looking at the Cavs subreddit and many of them are a hard no on the trade. They think Mobley is more valuable and that Jaylen would overlap with Mitchell and Harden too much. For some reason, they weren't thinking of him as a wing and were just thinking he was a guard.

I do agree that us being able to take one of their midsize contracts into our TPE would be a big deal for them. There's no way they want Struss or Schroder on their cap sheet anymore. Not sure if doing that would require any compensation, but it's definitely incentive to do a deal with us.

Funny enough, their fans seemed all in on a Mitchell for Jaylen deal. That doesn't really fix the Center issue for us, but Mitchell is certainly a good player

[keevsnick]

I don't thing people really fathom that these "poo-poo" platter type trade ideas essentially remove the Celtics from contention in the near term. Maybe you get enough other assets that in a year or two you can flip those for a star an get back into the title hunt but I have no idea why you wouldn't just roll with Tatum/Jaylen for at least another year and re-visit a Jaylen trade next offseason when he'll still have two years left on his deal. Why are people okay just burning a year of Tatum's prime to accumulate assets?

All of this assuming he wants to be traded at all, WHICH WE DON"T KNOW.

I am generally with you.  The one thing I come back to is the on-off numbers for Jaylen.  They have been negative four years in a row, and often very negative.  Somehow the Celtics were 4.6 points worse per 100 with Brown playing last year than on the bench.  One year you can explain away.  Even a couple of years.  Maybe there was some other deadweight he had more minutes with than his teammates did.  I used to convince myself that because Tatum and Brown alternated a fair bit of their minutes, and Tatum was better than Brown, even if Brown was good, that was part of it.  I very likely argued it in this board.  But Tatum was gone.  He had mostly new teammates.  Derrick White was still an on-off beast.  Of the top 13 players with the most minutes on the Celtics last year, Jaylen was 13th in on-off.  You have to get to the true garbage time guys to find people lower than Jaylen was.

And in the playoffs, small sample tho it was, it was way worse.  The Celtics were 31.4 points worse per 100 with Jaylen playing compared to off.

I think Jaylen is a terrific player, but it really is time to question the fit.  I cannot prop up Derrick White and Hugo Gonzalez by a stat while ignoring Jaylen?s deficiency in it.  So maybe a pu pu platter is good, if you can get a rotation big to spell Queta, a third quality rotation combo guard to go with White and Pritchard, and a versatile forward who is a notch down from JB, but maybe a better fit.

I do not think any random collection of players will do, but I can definitely conceive of some realistic trades that make the Celtics better despite losing the player with the most talent.

Great post.

I think this is where people get lost in this whole discussion by focusing on getting a "fair" exchange in trading JB for a guy. If the sum of the parts fix the holes that prevent us from actually competing for a title we currently have, then it's not a loss in trading JB for lesser pieces. I don't see us winning without a big man in the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but I believe the core needs a shake up while JT is still good and young enough to be elite.

Guys here's the thing, in the last 9 seasons Brown/Tatum have played together 8 different teams have won the title. That's 8 different champions in the Jays run.

In that time how many of those teams were one superstar then a bunch of role guys?

The Knicks had Brunson/Towns, two all-NBA level guys.
The Thunder had Shai and Williams, an MVP and all-nba level guy
The Celtics had Brown and Tatum, two all-nba level guys.
The Nuggets had Jokic and Murray, an MVP and a guy who hadn't yet made all-nba but just did this season.
The Warrior had Curry and Green, an MVP and a POY.
The Bucks had Giannis and Midleton and Holiday, an MVP and two all-star level players.
The Lakers had Lebron an Davis, an MVP and an all-nba guy

The idea that you are going to trade Jaylen and get back a couple sub-all stars who "fit better" and it's going to make you better is fine, it might work in the regular season, but it absolutely caps your ceiling. Teams have gone heliocentric with better offensive players than Jayson Tatum, and it just doesn't work at the highest levels. History tells us you need multiple all-nba level guys OR one MVP + multiple all-stars to win the title.

Is Tatum/Brown fit perfect? No. The similar skill sets and size makes classic PnR play awkward. But it's also good in some ways. Both guys are versatile, both guys play both ways, both guys have stayed relatively healthy (Tatum's Achilles aside).

Again in the last 8 years eight different champions and arguably more success than ANY OTHER TEAM in that era. People are confusing it being hard to win with the Jays not being a good fit.

We Know, if you put the right team out there that the Jays can win a title. There are very few duo's in the NBA you can say that about with ABSOLUTE certainty. People are way too quick to discount that.

[Celtics4ever]

I would ask for Mobley, Jaylen Tyson and Sam Merrill for Brown.  Not ideal, this is what it took on a trade machine to match.  CLE

I looked at Brown for Alexander-Walker,  Okongwu, Kispert and Riscahcer.  This would be Tatum as the star with Knicks depth strength.  ATL

I also did a Jazz trade of Brown for Jaren Jackson and Sensabuagh.  Mayber Kessler with some other talent added.

I am not saying any of these is good.