Do you trust JB?

[Moranis]

This is quite a tricky question, but I'll answer.

I don't trust Brown to lead the Cs as the main leader. But I don't trust Tatum either. Both are not the alpha male the Cs need.

Brown was instrumental in 2024 when Tatum didn't play well and the Cs win it all. In  2025 they didn't do well together in the playoff. In 2026 we may say Tatum played better than Brown in the playoff but Brown has shown he could lead the non Tatum team to the playoff  (which I doubt Tatum would be able to do the same if Brown were injured).

I like Brown because he keeps learning and become more efficient, except for the dribble turnover. That he developed and perfected the midrange and reduced his 3pt shot is a testament to it. I trust that he will keep improving in 2027 too.

My observation is in the playoff s Tatum and Brown never played well together in the series the Cs eventually lost. Either Tatum played well and Brown didn't or vice versa, or neither of them played well. In 2025 when they finally win it all Tatum struggled in most of the Finals games.

I think one of the Jays must go and I'd prefer to keep Brown. We just need the no 1 option such as Gianis or Jokic to lead the team. Also Imo a package of Tatum + Hauser/White could get either Gianis or Jokic but not a package of Brown + Hauser/White.

You don?t think Tatum could lead the Celtics to the playoffs if Brown was out the whole season? Why not, Tatum is better at everything. Scoring, rebounding, passing. He also knows how to perform under pressure.

I don?t understand how you would rather trade JT who was the only Celtics starter with a positive net rating in the playoffs instead of JB who had more turnovers than assists and can?t make free throws in crunch time.

I agree that Tatum was a better player in the playoff this season. But it was only one series and he didn't play well in game 5 and 6 either. In the regular season his wasn't spectacular though his rebounds was always there.

In the last 2 years before his injury I think Tatum had been playing a rather lazy offense. 50% of his shots were 3 pt shots with a 33% rate. He become less clutch  and disappeared in the playoff too. Fortunately we still had KP, Jrue and Al to balance it. Brown was the final MVP, not Tatum and he keeps improving, except for his turnover. I always think of Tatum as a white collar worker who has skills but afraid of physicallity. I just can't imagine him being the true leader here.

I love Tatum, but I love the Celtics more. If we can retain them both and get Giannis I'll be very happy, but I think it's impossible.

Tatum led the team in points, rebounds, and assists in the finals. 

[jambr380]

This is quite a tricky question, but I'll answer.

I don't trust Brown to lead the Cs as the main leader. But I don't trust Tatum either. Both are not the alpha male the Cs need.

Brown was instrumental in 2024 when Tatum didn't play well and the Cs win it all. In  2025 they didn't do well together in the playoff. In 2026 we may say Tatum played better than Brown in the playoff but Brown has shown he could lead the non Tatum team to the playoff  (which I doubt Tatum would be able to do the same if Brown were injured).

I like Brown because he keeps learning and become more efficient, except for the dribble turnover. That he developed and perfected the midrange and reduced his 3pt shot is a testament to it. I trust that he will keep improving in 2027 too.

My observation is in the playoff s Tatum and Brown never played well together in the series the Cs eventually lost. Either Tatum played well and Brown didn't or vice versa, or neither of them played well. In 2025 when they finally win it all Tatum struggled in most of the Finals games.

I think one of the Jays must go and I'd prefer to keep Brown. We just need the no 1 option such as Gianis or Jokic to lead the team. Also Imo a package of Tatum + Hauser/White could get either Gianis or Jokic but not a package of Brown + Hauser/White.

You don?t think Tatum could lead the Celtics to the playoffs if Brown was out the whole season? Why not, Tatum is better at everything. Scoring, rebounding, passing. He also knows how to perform under pressure.

I don?t understand how you would rather trade JT who was the only Celtics starter with a positive net rating in the playoffs instead of JB who had more turnovers than assists and can?t make free throws in crunch time.

I agree that Tatum was a better player in the playoff this season. But it was only one series and he didn't play well in game 5 and 6 either. In the regular season his wasn't spectacular though his rebounds was always there.

In the last 2 years before his injury I think Tatum had been playing a rather lazy offense. 50% of his shots were 3 pt shots with a 33% rate. He become less clutch  and disappeared in the playoff too. Fortunately we still had KP, Jrue and Al to balance it. Brown was the final MVP, not Tatum and he keeps improving, except for his turnover. I always think of Tatum as a white collar worker who has skills but afraid of physicallity. I just can't imagine him being the true leader here.

I love Tatum, but I love the Celtics more. If we can retain them both and get Giannis I'll be very happy, but I think it's impossible.

Tatum led the team in points, rebounds, and assists in the finals.

I'll probably never fully get over Jaylen winning FMVP over Tatum. Jaylen gets all the credit for guarding Luka (who still had a great series), but nobody cared that Tatum was guarding their Centers and preventing the lob threat that made Luka so dangerous.

This year, Jaylen had a -5.5 on/off, while Derrick White had an on/off of of +9.4 (Tatum in a limited sample size was +2.7), They both played 34 mpg. No doubt that Jaylen played better this season than this stat lets on, but I look like a moron now arguing that Jaylen's real impact came from his ability to step up in the playoffs, make tough shots, and guard other the best players when it mattered most.

I am not looking to trade Jaylen Brown, but there is no decision to be made imo between who you would trade between the two. It's obviously Jaylen

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

This is quite a tricky question, but I'll answer.

I don't trust Brown to lead the Cs as the main leader. But I don't trust Tatum either. Both are not the alpha male the Cs need.

Brown was instrumental in 2024 when Tatum didn't play well and the Cs win it all. In  2025 they didn't do well together in the playoff. In 2026 we may say Tatum played better than Brown in the playoff but Brown has shown he could lead the non Tatum team to the playoff  (which I doubt Tatum would be able to do the same if Brown were injured).

I like Brown because he keeps learning and become more efficient, except for the dribble turnover. That he developed and perfected the midrange and reduced his 3pt shot is a testament to it. I trust that he will keep improving in 2027 too.

My observation is in the playoff s Tatum and Brown never played well together in the series the Cs eventually lost. Either Tatum played well and Brown didn't or vice versa, or neither of them played well. In 2025 when they finally win it all Tatum struggled in most of the Finals games.

I think one of the Jays must go and I'd prefer to keep Brown. We just need the no 1 option such as Gianis or Jokic to lead the team. Also Imo a package of Tatum + Hauser/White could get either Gianis or Jokic but not a package of Brown + Hauser/White.

You don?t think Tatum could lead the Celtics to the playoffs if Brown was out the whole season? Why not, Tatum is better at everything. Scoring, rebounding, passing. He also knows how to perform under pressure.

I don?t understand how you would rather trade JT who was the only Celtics starter with a positive net rating in the playoffs instead of JB who had more turnovers than assists and can?t make free throws in crunch time.

I agree that Tatum was a better player in the playoff this season. But it was only one series and he didn't play well in game 5 and 6 either. In the regular season his wasn't spectacular though his rebounds was always there.

In the last 2 years before his injury I think Tatum had been playing a rather lazy offense. 50% of his shots were 3 pt shots with a 33% rate. He become less clutch  and disappeared in the playoff too. Fortunately we still had KP, Jrue and Al to balance it. Brown was the final MVP, not Tatum and he keeps improving, except for his turnover. I always think of Tatum as a white collar worker who has skills but afraid of physicallity. I just can't imagine him being the true leader here.

I love Tatum, but I love the Celtics more. If we can retain them both and get Giannis I'll be very happy, but I think it's impossible.

Let me say this in Tatum's defence. Throughout that championship run, the Cs opponents made it their game plan to double and triple team Tatum, hence the really low efficiency in his scoring numbers. Yet despite this, the Cs won because Tatum's passing and playmaking had matured to the point that he did not crater the team's overall offence trying to hero-ball a championship. That and having older wiser heads like AH an JH on hand to keep the team churning even on the days the Jays would have otherwise shot 1-20  from three and cost us the game

JB has also been diversifying his offensive game to the point where he is not the tunnel-vision (make him drive left and laugh) guy from 2022-3ish.

Now that I am typing this comment, it feels like the best analogy for The Jays strengths and weaknesses is George Lucas and his Star Wars movies in that, when he was working on the OT  he was working with peers, who respected but did not fear him, and could call him out on his BS. It really helped him make an amazing set of movies. With the prequel trilogy, George Lucas was working with up-and-coming film people, who were somewhat in awe of his achievements and probably did not do enough to keep him in check. Hence the wooden dialogue, and uneven bloated pacing.

[Roy H.]

One area that JB could use some work on is accountability.

In another part of the Twitch stream, Brown showed a play in which Sixers forward Paul George appeared to push off slightly before making an offensive move.

"If you're going to call push-offs, call that," Brown said. "Same move. Same refs. Oh, it's nothing? It's play on, right?

"But you gonna call me? Everybody does it ... but if it would have been me, it'd have been an offensive foul."

Brown was called for 10 offensive fouls in the first round, twice as many as the next-highest player (Jalen Duren, Karl-Anthony Towns, Neemias Queta, Stephon Castle).

"Every good basketball player does this. What are y'all talking about? They clearly had an agenda," Brown said. "If Jaylen does this move, call the offensive foul and follow him every time. I don't know if it's because I p---ed the refs off. I've been critical about them, and I called them out a bunch of times. So, they were like, 'You know what, I got you in the playoffs. Watch this.' [Because] that's exactly what they did.

"It's clearly an agenda. Look at the same move. Some referees that if I had to choose, if I had to, like, say there's some referees that need to be investigated. We had three of them in the last three games."

Instead of whining, he probably should have just stopped shoving off.

[celticinorlando]

Nope. Great regular season player. But a pumpkin in the playoffs.

[Goldstar88]

I trust Brown.  He is a star, who demanded guys step up all season.   That being said, he did not have a great post season this year.   But who on our team did?   We took bad shot after bad shot, like it or not, Brown was not the only guy doing it.   The Sixers played great D, matched up well with us.

White was MIA.   Tatum came back too early it seems.  Neemi could not control his fouling.  Pritchard and Brown did not have a great post season.  The stay ready Bus guys did not thrive.  Hauser struggled at times.  Maz did not adjust, but did have the personnel to stop Embiid?  We did not match the intensity, clung to three when it was not failing, and did not show the urgency we needed too.   Total team loss.

Let's not make this series loss a pile on Jaylen Brown.   We win or lose as a team.   We over achieved in the regular season and were exposed in the playoffs.

Thing is, when JB is calling himself the leader of the team, the best two way player in the world and he has top two usage in the league, it is on him.

[rondohondo]

Jaylen Brown: ?He?s one of the best bigs in the world, if not the best when healthy, and he?s a former MVP. And he came back and changed the series because we was up 3?1 without him. He comes back, and we lose the next three. We lose the next three games once he kind of starts figuring it out. If we would have had a little bit more, if we could bang with him a little bit more personnel-wise and not give him so many easy baskets, it would have been a little different for us.

So he is blaming the refs for having an agenda.

Now , though he may be right he is blaming the front office for not having the right big men.(blaming his teammates also)

He also stated many times that this is his favorite season even after he lost 3 straight to Philly, implying that he is happiest when it's his team.

He is pretty much saying he wants his own team, and blames everyone else when he fails.

He can have his own team..... the bucks....

[celticinorlando]

Called himself the best 2 way player in the NBA. And lays a turd in the series.

[keevsnick]

Do i trust a 5 all star, 2x all nba, finals MVP? Yes.

[celticinorlando]

Do i trust a 5 all star, 2x all nba, finals MVP? Yes.

Well twice now in a game 7 JB had the stage to himself and did nothing with it. The year JT got hurt vs Miami and the other night.

 Really wasn't a factor in the 2023 game 7 vs Philly either.
Good regular season player. Inconsistent playoff player.

Brown is more of a Robin than a Batman. He just can't see it. Can't have the opinion he has about himself and not show up in the playoffs.

[aefgogreen]

As the second guy, yes.  I don't want to trade him as I think we get significantly less in return.

[slamtheking]

I don't trust Brown to lead the Cs as the main leader. But I don't trust Tatum either. Both are not the alpha male the Cs need.

Brown was instrumental in 2024 when Tatum didn't play well and the Cs win it all. In  2025 they didn't do well together in the playoff. In 2026 we may say Tatum played better than Brown in the playoff but Brown has shown he could lead the non Tatum team to the playoff 

this. 

It's become apparent that neither is really an alpha - a player with the indomitable will to win.  They're both great players that would prefer to win but they don't seem to be as bothered by a loss as a true alpha would be.  it's become evident with their weak-minded play in the playoffs.  I've never seen Tatum play like winning was all that mattered but we did see JB play with that purpose when they won the title with his drive to personally take on Luka on offense and defense.

I would love to keep both of them here for their careers but I'm reaching the point where it's too apparent that playing at home means nothing to them where other teams would dread playing here and they play with no heart where they all too often playing lackadaisical offense and defense in critical games

By that definition, how many alphas are there?

Giannis doesn't fit that definition, for instance.  Neither does Jokic, or Durant, or Luka, or LeBron.  These guys are all worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and none will ever be a "win at all costs" type

KG, Kobe...  Those guys don't really exist anymore.

which is the sad part of the current NBA and why I don't watch the league -- just the Celtics. 

The league in general is too soft, too buddy-buddy. 

[rondohondo]

Not only did the underlying metrics suggest all season that Brown was overrated, but a new emphasis by the NBA referees changed everything for him. All season long, Brown was the worst perpetrator of the off-arm shimmy, of using his forearm to ward off defenders at all costs as he sought an open shot. Called for an offensive foul on multiple possessions in the series, it was communicated to him that his stiff-arm was not a legal move for the NBA.

Without that push-off, it was nearly impossible for Brown to find a way to separate and score against the 76ers. They took his lunch money again and again. Sometimes, Tatum or another Celtics player was there to lift him back up. But not in the final three games of the series as the 76ers came back from a 3-1 deficit.

In those three games, Jaylen Brown played 109 minutes total, and the Celtics were outscored by 66 points in those minutes. In the other 36 minutes, Boston outplayed the 76ers by 26. Who else was supposed to show up if not Brown? That answer is unclear, but if one thing was made clear in Game 7, it's that Brown is not The Guy.

Brown is overrated imo. We could add a wing for half the price that would provide 85 % of what jb contributes as the #2 guy, cause brown is definitely not a #1 or 1b. He is more like og anunoby

[keevsnick]

Do i trust a 5 all star, 2x all nba, finals MVP? Yes.

Well twice now in a game 7 JB had the stage to himself and did nothing with it. The year JT got hurt vs Miami and the other night.

 Really wasn't a factor in the 2023 game 7 vs Philly either.
Good regular season player. Inconsistent playoff player.

Brown is more of a Robin than a Batman. He just can't see it. Can't have the opinion he has about himself and not show up in the playoffs.

I just don't agree with anything you just wrote. I thought he was pretty good in the game 7, not good enough but he went toe to toe with a former league MVP and was one or two shots away from winning a game in which the Celtics shot 27% from three.

As for "can't have that opinion of himself and not show up" I just don't really have a lot of patience for this sort of pseudo psychological basketball analysis. Not sure what to do with it, I just don't find it useful. Athletes are allowed to be confident, then are allowed to have a chip on their shoulder, it's fine. As for his playoff performance I think overall he's been good, he's had two series in his life I thought he was actively bad in and those were NYK last year (on a torn meniscus) and that MIA series.,

Where I come out is this: Are you winning a title with Jaylen as your best player? No. Your best player is typically an MVP/DPOY level guy, and Jaylen isn't that. But do I have any problem with a guy THINKING he's that level of player when he's not? No I do not. Whatever motivates a guy is fine by me.

The problem the C's have is "attitude" or any number of other vague meaningless nonsense we as fans love to throw around. Its talent. In the last 21 seasons (2005-2025) only ONE team won an NBA championship without either an MVP or DPOY on their roster. That was your 2024 Boston Celtics. Its REALLY HARD TO DO.

The Celtics primary problem is they don't have that one unstoppable offensive engine type guy, the one undeniable guy. Tatum is a good offensive player, but a lot of his value is being a well rounded guy without weakness rather than a true offensive superstar. This results in the Celtics needing to lean HEAVILY into the 3 ball essentially gaming the math to generate elite offense. That can work, but there's always the possibility that the shooting desserts you for three games and you blow a 3-1 lead because you shoot 28% in games 5-7. It happens. Its not really Brown, Tatum or Mazzula's fault per se. It's a roster issue, one that is very hard to fix.

Its part of the reason the "shoot less threes" people are wrong. The Celtics could probably have a more "normal offense" with more shooting balance, but the net result would be an offense with less upside. Because they simply do not have the right pieces to make a two-point heavy offense work. The upside is what you need to win the title, in return you will get some series like this one where the shooting betrays you. That's the tradeoff.

[Goldstar88]

To be the leader of this team not just in the regular season, but in the playoffs. To get his teammates involved. To make free throws when the game is on the line. To not turn the ball over in high pressure situations. To make the right decisions in big games.

Personally, I don?t. It feels like Marcus Smart all over again. I dont feel that way with JT or D-White. Didn?t feel that way with Jrue. I just don?t trust JB to lead this team to a championship.

I'm curious about this take because it's shared by a few people here. Is there anything you can point to statistically that caused you to arrive at this conclusion? Or is it just a gut feel?

I'm trying to understand if it's statistics, or his demeanor, or what it is about him that makes people feel this way. Human nature being what it is, we remember the bad things a player did more than the good things, which are quickly forgotten as we move to the next play. But a turnover in a bad moment? A missed free throw? Those stick in the memory.

I'm tempted to do a deep dive into JB's stats to see if there is data behind these things, and if so, how bad is really is. Was he the cause of us giving up a 3-1 lead? Or was it the folks who shot 50% from 3 in the 3 games we won and shot 25% in the games we lost?

I honestly don't know at this point. What I do know is he's constantly been criticized in this forum, especially when he signed his supermax, then at the start of the season when everyone expected us to be trash, then now in the playoffs. We all have our favorites, but he gets a lot more hate than others.

In the playoffs this season, JB had a negative net rating and more turnovers than assists.  He tries to be a hero and is a ball stopper. Brown can?t make free throws under pressure either. I just don?t trust him as the leader of the team, which is exactly how I felt when Smart was trying to lead and had the ball in his hands in high leverage situations. Never felt that way with Tatum, White, or Jrue when he was here.