Very much in favor of the 65 game rule

[michigan adam]

Wow, lots of complicated suggestions.  I don't know the answer.  The base question here seems to be whether there should be a 65 game rule for season awards.  Then it got conflated into a question about load management in general (or so it seems).

There are not that many players in the league that are legitimately contenders for MVP.  I don't really like the rule as it applies to MVP (or other awards).  If a player gets injured and misses 20 games, that should be a factor but I don't like the hard cut off.  Play 66 games and you are OK but only 64 and you don't qualify?

I believe that a first place vote is 10 points, second is 7 and so on.  Maybe make it that if you play less than 65 games, then your first place vote is only worth 9 points, second only 6 points or something.  That way it is still a factor but not all in or all out.

As far as load management, so long as there are back to back games, all teams are going to rest some players.  Eliminate back to back games and there would be less of this.  Some players need rest along the way or they won't get through the season.  I don't see this as a major problem and also no realistic way to change it.

A lot of things in life are like this, though, whether for good or bad. Hit 500 homers and you're a lock for the Hall of Fame, hit 499 and you're not. Make X dollars and you qualify for welfare, make $100 more and you don't. It's the nature of cutoffs.

Perhaps the best approach in the NBA is to have a cutoff, but one that's a lot easier to surpass, such as ">50% of games." There are a lot of opinions about how many games a player should have to play to "deserve" awards consideration, but I'd hope that most people could agree that a player who misses half (or more) of his team's games doesn't deserve to win any awards.

Greater than 50% of the games would achieve absolutely nothing. There would be genuinely no point to have that rule.

If it's about achieving something, the current rule works?it's forcing star players to play as many games as possible if they want to qualify for awards, and it's allowing fans to see star players more often.

It's hardly as many games as possible. It's just under 80%.  And I'd be fine if they dropped it to 62 games (about 75%).

You're right -- not "as many as possible." Let's say "a reasonable amount if you want to be in the running for an award." And I understand that "reasonable amount" is subjective, so the final number is negotiable, IMO, but we all know that there has to be a line somewhere. People can quibble and complain about the exact number, but even though injuries are a legit issue, players shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too by resting a ridiculous amount and still getting accolades.

A lot of this "load management" is done to preserve guys for the playoffs, so it seems strange to me that guys want to, essentially, miss as much of the regular season as possible, in order to be as fresh as possible for the postseason, but still get the regular-season accolades they think they deserve despite missing a bunch of time in the regular season.

Besides that, fans want to see players play. That's what they pay for. And that's what these guys are paid to do, so I don't think they should get rewarded for their play when they aren't even playing as much as they could be.

I really think this thinking misses the point.

It?s not about what?s reasonable to contend for awards. Voters make that decision.

It?s about what number creates the optimal pressure for players to avoid load managing without destroying integrity of the awards. That?s a fundamental differences

I had issue with your 50% proposal because no one in 50 years has made an all NBA team playing 50% of games. Adding that rule creates ZERO incentive to avoid load management. The rule actually has to be at a number of games where a player can actually miss the cutoff and deserve awards. The whole point is to create pressure in that specific situation

I think the point of this rule is to take some of the popularity OUT of the voting. How can a guy who played only 60 games be more valuable than a guy who played 82.  One of the greatest player abilities is availability. JT only will have played like 28 games this year. He should not me mvp, nor under consideration for all nba. But I give him a lot of credit for playing those games, at the highest level, to help his team, when most here thought it was a bad idea to play him. I like the 65 game rule. Now I wish defense played a bigger role in these after season accolades.

[Moranis]

Wow, lots of complicated suggestions.  I don't know the answer.  The base question here seems to be whether there should be a 65 game rule for season awards.  Then it got conflated into a question about load management in general (or so it seems).

There are not that many players in the league that are legitimately contenders for MVP.  I don't really like the rule as it applies to MVP (or other awards).  If a player gets injured and misses 20 games, that should be a factor but I don't like the hard cut off.  Play 66 games and you are OK but only 64 and you don't qualify?

I believe that a first place vote is 10 points, second is 7 and so on.  Maybe make it that if you play less than 65 games, then your first place vote is only worth 9 points, second only 6 points or something.  That way it is still a factor but not all in or all out.

As far as load management, so long as there are back to back games, all teams are going to rest some players.  Eliminate back to back games and there would be less of this.  Some players need rest along the way or they won't get through the season.  I don't see this as a major problem and also no realistic way to change it.

A lot of things in life are like this, though, whether for good or bad. Hit 500 homers and you're a lock for the Hall of Fame, hit 499 and you're not. Make X dollars and you qualify for welfare, make $100 more and you don't. It's the nature of cutoffs.

Perhaps the best approach in the NBA is to have a cutoff, but one that's a lot easier to surpass, such as ">50% of games." There are a lot of opinions about how many games a player should have to play to "deserve" awards consideration, but I'd hope that most people could agree that a player who misses half (or more) of his team's games doesn't deserve to win any awards.

Greater than 50% of the games would achieve absolutely nothing. There would be genuinely no point to have that rule.

If it's about achieving something, the current rule works?it's forcing star players to play as many games as possible if they want to qualify for awards, and it's allowing fans to see star players more often.

It's hardly as many games as possible. It's just under 80%.  And I'd be fine if they dropped it to 62 games (about 75%).

You're right -- not "as many as possible." Let's say "a reasonable amount if you want to be in the running for an award." And I understand that "reasonable amount" is subjective, so the final number is negotiable, IMO, but we all know that there has to be a line somewhere. People can quibble and complain about the exact number, but even though injuries are a legit issue, players shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too by resting a ridiculous amount and still getting accolades.

A lot of this "load management" is done to preserve guys for the playoffs, so it seems strange to me that guys want to, essentially, miss as much of the regular season as possible, in order to be as fresh as possible for the postseason, but still get the regular-season accolades they think they deserve despite missing a bunch of time in the regular season.

Besides that, fans want to see players play. That's what they pay for. And that's what these guys are paid to do, so I don't think they should get rewarded for their play when they aren't even playing as much as they could be.

I really think this thinking misses the point.

It?s not about what?s reasonable to contend for awards. Voters make that decision.

It?s about what number creates the optimal pressure for players to avoid load managing without destroying integrity of the awards. That?s a fundamental differences

I had issue with your 50% proposal because no one in 50 years has made an all NBA team playing 50% of games. Adding that rule creates ZERO incentive to avoid load management. The rule actually has to be at a number of games where a player can actually miss the cutoff and deserve awards. The whole point is to create pressure in that specific situation

I think the point of this rule is to take some of the popularity OUT of the voting. How can a guy who played only 60 games be more valuable than a guy who played 82.  One of the greatest player abilities is availability. JT only will have played like 28 games this year. He should not me mvp, nor under consideration for all nba. But I give him a lot of credit for playing those games, at the highest level, to help his team, when most here thought it was a bad idea to play him. I like the 65 game rule. Now I wish defense played a bigger role in these after season accolades.

who was getting the awards playing 60 games over the guy playing 82 games?

[Roy H.]

Wow, lots of complicated suggestions.  I don't know the answer.  The base question here seems to be whether there should be a 65 game rule for season awards.  Then it got conflated into a question about load management in general (or so it seems).

There are not that many players in the league that are legitimately contenders for MVP.  I don't really like the rule as it applies to MVP (or other awards).  If a player gets injured and misses 20 games, that should be a factor but I don't like the hard cut off.  Play 66 games and you are OK but only 64 and you don't qualify?

I believe that a first place vote is 10 points, second is 7 and so on.  Maybe make it that if you play less than 65 games, then your first place vote is only worth 9 points, second only 6 points or something.  That way it is still a factor but not all in or all out.

As far as load management, so long as there are back to back games, all teams are going to rest some players.  Eliminate back to back games and there would be less of this.  Some players need rest along the way or they won't get through the season.  I don't see this as a major problem and also no realistic way to change it.

A lot of things in life are like this, though, whether for good or bad. Hit 500 homers and you're a lock for the Hall of Fame, hit 499 and you're not. Make X dollars and you qualify for welfare, make $100 more and you don't. It's the nature of cutoffs.

Perhaps the best approach in the NBA is to have a cutoff, but one that's a lot easier to surpass, such as ">50% of games." There are a lot of opinions about how many games a player should have to play to "deserve" awards consideration, but I'd hope that most people could agree that a player who misses half (or more) of his team's games doesn't deserve to win any awards.

Greater than 50% of the games would achieve absolutely nothing. There would be genuinely no point to have that rule.

If it's about achieving something, the current rule works?it's forcing star players to play as many games as possible if they want to qualify for awards, and it's allowing fans to see star players more often.

It's hardly as many games as possible. It's just under 80%.  And I'd be fine if they dropped it to 62 games (about 75%).

You're right -- not "as many as possible." Let's say "a reasonable amount if you want to be in the running for an award." And I understand that "reasonable amount" is subjective, so the final number is negotiable, IMO, but we all know that there has to be a line somewhere. People can quibble and complain about the exact number, but even though injuries are a legit issue, players shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too by resting a ridiculous amount and still getting accolades.

A lot of this "load management" is done to preserve guys for the playoffs, so it seems strange to me that guys want to, essentially, miss as much of the regular season as possible, in order to be as fresh as possible for the postseason, but still get the regular-season accolades they think they deserve despite missing a bunch of time in the regular season.

Besides that, fans want to see players play. That's what they pay for. And that's what these guys are paid to do, so I don't think they should get rewarded for their play when they aren't even playing as much as they could be.

I really think this thinking misses the point.

It?s not about what?s reasonable to contend for awards. Voters make that decision.

It?s about what number creates the optimal pressure for players to avoid load managing without destroying integrity of the awards. That?s a fundamental differences

I had issue with your 50% proposal because no one in 50 years has made an all NBA team playing 50% of games. Adding that rule creates ZERO incentive to avoid load management. The rule actually has to be at a number of games where a player can actually miss the cutoff and deserve awards. The whole point is to create pressure in that specific situation

I think the point of this rule is to take some of the popularity OUT of the voting. How can a guy who played only 60 games be more valuable than a guy who played 82.  One of the greatest player abilities is availability. JT only will have played like 28 games this year. He should not me mvp, nor under consideration for all nba. But I give him a lot of credit for playing those games, at the highest level, to help his team, when most here thought it was a bad idea to play him. I like the 65 game rule. Now I wish defense played a bigger role in these after season accolades.

who was getting the awards playing 60 games over the guy playing 82 games?

Joel Embiid made All-NBA and All-Defense (and was 2nd in MVP) despite playing 51 games.

I think he's the most egregious recent example.  Bill Walton is the all-time answer, and I think he won that to recognize his two-year stretch more than anything he did in 1978 (when his season ended in February).

[Moranis]

Wow, lots of complicated suggestions.  I don't know the answer.  The base question here seems to be whether there should be a 65 game rule for season awards.  Then it got conflated into a question about load management in general (or so it seems).

There are not that many players in the league that are legitimately contenders for MVP.  I don't really like the rule as it applies to MVP (or other awards).  If a player gets injured and misses 20 games, that should be a factor but I don't like the hard cut off.  Play 66 games and you are OK but only 64 and you don't qualify?

I believe that a first place vote is 10 points, second is 7 and so on.  Maybe make it that if you play less than 65 games, then your first place vote is only worth 9 points, second only 6 points or something.  That way it is still a factor but not all in or all out.

As far as load management, so long as there are back to back games, all teams are going to rest some players.  Eliminate back to back games and there would be less of this.  Some players need rest along the way or they won't get through the season.  I don't see this as a major problem and also no realistic way to change it.

A lot of things in life are like this, though, whether for good or bad. Hit 500 homers and you're a lock for the Hall of Fame, hit 499 and you're not. Make X dollars and you qualify for welfare, make $100 more and you don't. It's the nature of cutoffs.

Perhaps the best approach in the NBA is to have a cutoff, but one that's a lot easier to surpass, such as ">50% of games." There are a lot of opinions about how many games a player should have to play to "deserve" awards consideration, but I'd hope that most people could agree that a player who misses half (or more) of his team's games doesn't deserve to win any awards.

Greater than 50% of the games would achieve absolutely nothing. There would be genuinely no point to have that rule.

If it's about achieving something, the current rule works?it's forcing star players to play as many games as possible if they want to qualify for awards, and it's allowing fans to see star players more often.

It's hardly as many games as possible. It's just under 80%.  And I'd be fine if they dropped it to 62 games (about 75%).

You're right -- not "as many as possible." Let's say "a reasonable amount if you want to be in the running for an award." And I understand that "reasonable amount" is subjective, so the final number is negotiable, IMO, but we all know that there has to be a line somewhere. People can quibble and complain about the exact number, but even though injuries are a legit issue, players shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it too by resting a ridiculous amount and still getting accolades.

A lot of this "load management" is done to preserve guys for the playoffs, so it seems strange to me that guys want to, essentially, miss as much of the regular season as possible, in order to be as fresh as possible for the postseason, but still get the regular-season accolades they think they deserve despite missing a bunch of time in the regular season.

Besides that, fans want to see players play. That's what they pay for. And that's what these guys are paid to do, so I don't think they should get rewarded for their play when they aren't even playing as much as they could be.

I really think this thinking misses the point.

It?s not about what?s reasonable to contend for awards. Voters make that decision.

It?s about what number creates the optimal pressure for players to avoid load managing without destroying integrity of the awards. That?s a fundamental differences

I had issue with your 50% proposal because no one in 50 years has made an all NBA team playing 50% of games. Adding that rule creates ZERO incentive to avoid load management. The rule actually has to be at a number of games where a player can actually miss the cutoff and deserve awards. The whole point is to create pressure in that specific situation

I think the point of this rule is to take some of the popularity OUT of the voting. How can a guy who played only 60 games be more valuable than a guy who played 82.  One of the greatest player abilities is availability. JT only will have played like 28 games this year. He should not me mvp, nor under consideration for all nba. But I give him a lot of credit for playing those games, at the highest level, to help his team, when most here thought it was a bad idea to play him. I like the 65 game rule. Now I wish defense played a bigger role in these after season accolades.

who was getting the awards playing 60 games over the guy playing 82 games?

Joel Embiid made All-NBA and All-Defense (and was 2nd in MVP) despite playing 51 games.

I think he's the most egregious recent example.  Bill Walton is the all-time answer, and I think he won that to recognize his two-year stretch more than anything he did in 1978 (when his season ended in February).

that was a covid season.  Are we really basing things on the covid seasons?

[Moranis]

That covid season, the Sixers were the top team in the East at 49-23. They were 39-12 with Embiid and 10-11 without him.  The ROY was Lamelo Ball who also only played 51 games.  Kawhi made the 1st team with 52 games.  LeBron was on the 2nd team with 45 games.  Butler had 52 games on the 3rd team. George and Irving each had 54 also on 3rd team. 

I think we forget just how weird those 2 seasons were.  Guys were missing games because of quarantine and they only played 72 total. 

The next year things went back to normal and you didn't see guys woth so few games making all nba teams or winning awards. 

[Kernewek]

Bumping this because Luka's eligibility for these awards is heading to arbitration:

As it stands, Luka Dončić is not eligible for postseason awards. However, he intends to appeal that by using the Extraordinary Circumstances Challenge, citing him having to travel Europe for the birth of his child earlier this season.

In his latest piece on Substack, longtime NBA reporter Marc Stein laid out where the complications are going to lie moving forward. Typically, the NBA sends out award voting electronically on midnight Sunday night/Monday morning after the season ends and gives voters roughly 36 hours before the submission deadline.

At the same time, Luka can not submit his appeal until the season ends. So, both of these can?t happen simultaneously. Voters need to know if Luka is eligible before submitting ballots. As a result, according to Stein, the league will delay voting on awards until after a resolution in Luka?s case.

League rules stipulate that such a challenge can only be filed on the final day of the regular season (April 12 in this case). The league will have to rule on the challenge before releasing it?s electronic ballots to voters, meaning that the voting process might be delayed slightly from its planned April 13-14 window.

The rules in the CBA state that the hearing with an independent expert must take place within two days, the hearing can not last longer than one day and a resolution must come one day later. In short, this will all move pretty fast once the appeal is submitted.

https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/nba-delay-awards-voting-luka-215521727.html

As is tradition, I'll be away from the internet for the first week of the playoffs, so have fun and enjoy the games everyone

[Roy H.]

Bumping this because Luka's eligibility for these awards is heading to arbitration:

As it stands, Luka Dončić is not eligible for postseason awards. However, he intends to appeal that by using the Extraordinary Circumstances Challenge, citing him having to travel Europe for the birth of his child earlier this season.

In his latest piece on Substack, longtime NBA reporter Marc Stein laid out where the complications are going to lie moving forward. Typically, the NBA sends out award voting electronically on midnight Sunday night/Monday morning after the season ends and gives voters roughly 36 hours before the submission deadline.

At the same time, Luka can not submit his appeal until the season ends. So, both of these can?t happen simultaneously. Voters need to know if Luka is eligible before submitting ballots. As a result, according to Stein, the league will delay voting on awards until after a resolution in Luka?s case.

League rules stipulate that such a challenge can only be filed on the final day of the regular season (April 12 in this case). The league will have to rule on the challenge before releasing it?s electronic ballots to voters, meaning that the voting process might be delayed slightly from its planned April 13-14 window.

The rules in the CBA state that the hearing with an independent expert must take place within two days, the hearing can not last longer than one day and a resolution must come one day later. In short, this will all move pretty fast once the appeal is submitted.

https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/nba-delay-awards-voting-luka-215521727.html

As is tradition, I'll be away from the internet for the first week of the playoffs, so have fun and enjoy the games everyone

It's an interesting test case.  Think of the precedent for the NBA version of Antonio Cromartie.  He can be taking multiple in-season vacations to visit his baby mamas all around the world as they give birth.

In all seriousness to Luka, though, I'd give him an exemption for the two games.  They were back-to-back games and he had to fly halfway around the world.

[Jiri Welsch]

At risk of being that guy who says nothing the entire meeting and then torpedoes everything with his comment at the very end...

The worst thing about the 65 game rule is that it's making people talk about regular season awards even more than they typically do. Those awards truly don't interest me at all.

I may be in the minority here, but it's the truth!

[Roy H.]

That said, here's the text of the rule:



I think Luka meets criteria (i) and (ii).  The third one is tougher, though, since he sat out one game due to suspension and others with minor injury management.

[Vermont Green]

I suspect that even if he is granted this waiver, I think he will receive less votes as a result.  He has a decent case for getting MVP and certainly 1st team all-NBA.  But I don't see him as the favorite for MVP anymore.

This concept of extraordinary circumstances needs to be better defined.  As stated, it could be interpreted to apply or not apply to anything.  How about a collapsed lung?  An Appendicitis emergency?  A family death or birth seems to qualify but that is only going to be 1 or 2 of the 18 or more games that were missed.

The last clause is saying that the circumstances around all the other missed games is a factor in deciding this.  So if you miss 16 due to "rest" and 2 due to the birth of a child, does that qualify?  How about if it is 10 games due to real injury, 6 due to rest, and 2 for a birth?

[Moranis]

As I said in the NBA Season thread the fact that Luka led the entire league in points scored, was second in combined points/rebounds/assists, was 37th in minutes, and ended up playing more minutes, scoring more points, getting more rebounds, getting more assists, and even getting more steals than SGA, and yet SGA is likely to win MVP and be on the 1st Team and Luka isn't even eligible is absolutely ridiculous.  Luka won the scoring title, both in total and per game, and yet he can't even be honored.  Absolutely insane that they didn't think about minutes when they made this ridiculous rule.  Jokic played 24 less total minutes than Luka, but becuase he played in 1 more game, he qualifies for everything and Luka doesn't.  Cunningham played almost 100 more minutes than either Kawhi or Mobley, but they both had 65 games, and Cade only had 64, so Cade despite being statistically better and playing in more minutes isn't eligible and those guys are. 

It is nonsense. They should just get rid of it immediately and let the voters do their jobs and actually pick the best and most deserving players this year.  Games played should (and always was) a factor utilized.  There was absolutely no reason to change it because of the 2 covid years.  Just silly.