I Think I Am Aboard The Tank Train Now

[slamtheking]

Brown is averaging more turnovers than assists. 

This is what happens when a poor passer and dribbler is forced to be a #1 option.  Only 4 games, it may improve, but his flaws are going to magnified all year with him in the spotlight.

I could not agree, more.

Hopefully he figures out how to facilitate better. I think this season will force him to do so. Browns shooting has been phenomenal, though.

to be fair, those assist numbers would be better had the rest of the "sharp" shooters on this team not been laying bricks the first 3 games.

or maybe he was late on the pass or wasn't delivered properly or any number of reasons shots were missed.

except your possibilities are guesses whereas the info I provided is demonstrable through the box scores where everyone can see that the rest of the team has been bricking away this year.  I'm not saying he's going to pick up a ton of assists to balance out the TOs because he's always had that issue but there'd be more assists that would improve that ratio a bit.

White and Pritchard haven't shot well but Hauser and Simons are shooting better than they did last year (as have Minott and Garza).

or yet again, you're searching for any reason to dump on Brown.

this year and the past 3 seasons for Jaylen regarding assists and potential assists
25-26: 3.8 asst, 9.0 potential asst
24-25: 4.5 asst, 8.3 potential asst
23-24: 3.6 asst, 6.8 potential asst
22-23: 3.5 asst, 6.6 potential asst.
his asst to potential asst has been pretty consistent until this year.  What's the big difference so far --> teammates missing shots they typically make.  he's upped his potential assists so if shooters were hitting their typical shots, he should have about 4.8-5.0 asst per game, not 3.8. 

[keevsnick]

Brown is averaging more turnovers than assists. 

This is what happens when a poor passer and dribbler is forced to be a #1 option.  Only 4 games, it may improve, but his flaws are going to magnified all year with him in the spotlight.

I could not agree, more.

Hopefully he figures out how to facilitate better. I think this season will force him to do so. Browns shooting has been phenomenal, though.

to be fair, those assist numbers would be better had the rest of the "sharp" shooters on this team not been laying bricks the first 3 games.

or maybe he was late on the pass or wasn't delivered properly or any number of reasons shots were missed.

except your possibilities are guesses whereas the info I provided is demonstrable through the box scores where everyone can see that the rest of the team has been bricking away this year.  I'm not saying he's going to pick up a ton of assists to balance out the TOs because he's always had that issue but there'd be more assists that would improve that ratio a bit.

White and Pritchard haven't shot well but Hauser and Simons are shooting better than they did last year (as have Minott and Garza).

or yet again, you're searching for any reason to dump on Brown.

this year and the past 3 seasons for Jaylen regarding assists and potential assists
25-26: 3.8 asst, 9.0 potential asst
24-25: 4.5 asst, 8.3 potential asst
23-24: 3.6 asst, 6.8 potential asst
22-23: 3.5 asst, 6.6 potential asst.
his asst to potential asst has been pretty consistent until this year.  What's the big difference so far --> teammates missing shots they typically make.  he's upped his potential assists so if shooters were hitting their typical shots, he should have about 4.8-5.0 asst per game, not 3.8.

To add to this: because of foul trouble yesterday he's averaged 32.8 minutes vs game vs 34.3 last year, minutes adjusted he'd be averaging 9.4 potential assist per game if he was playing the same minutes as last year. that should get you 5-5.5 assist per game. he's just been unlucky with his teammates missing.

[Vermont Green]

This is not the first time that Brown has been put out there as the #1 or the main guy or whatever you want to call it.  There are periods in pretty much every game where he is out there and Tatum is not, and there are games that Tatum has missed.  So far this season, I would say that Brown is not playing as well as he has in the past in the same situation.  He is scoring very well, rebounding enough, but he has high turnovers.  I don't really like assists as a stat as many times it is not just one good pass that leads to a good look, it can be creating gravity and then a couple of passes.  That said, as explained above, it seems he is making good passes, creating opportunities.

I think there are two issues at play, I don't think he is 100%, he does not look quite the same to me.  Nothing serious, just a little out of rhythm, out of sync.  The other issue is that he is trying to facilitate a much weaker team than he has had the last few seasons.  The surrounding talent is not nearly as good and the group is not as familiar playing as a team together.

None of this is really a surprise.  Brown is one of the best #2s in the league, but being the #1 on a not so great team is something different.  Didn't everyone expect him to have struggles with this role at times, especially at the start of the season, coming off an injury?  Next season Tatum will be back and Brown can be a #2 again.  None of his struggles trying to be a #1 on a bad team are going to matter.  It doesn't mean we should trade him for draft picks.

[smicker16]

Yeah the assist numbers should definitely be higher for JB so I am not super worried there as he should be averaging around 5 or a bit more a game.  The big problem is the turnovers, but that is not super surprising and a bit of the concern with him in general over past seasons.  Will be interesting to see if he gets a handle (pun intended) on that at some point or it happens all year.  Obviously you could wonder what the turnovers would be if he had Holiday and KP out there as opposed to Baylor and Garza but JB should very clearly not be your main facilitator.  He has always been better as a finisher in my opinion. 

[Moranis]

Brown is averaging more turnovers than assists. 

This is what happens when a poor passer and dribbler is forced to be a #1 option.  Only 4 games, it may improve, but his flaws are going to magnified all year with him in the spotlight.

I could not agree, more.

Hopefully he figures out how to facilitate better. I think this season will force him to do so. Browns shooting has been phenomenal, though.

to be fair, those assist numbers would be better had the rest of the "sharp" shooters on this team not been laying bricks the first 3 games.

or maybe he was late on the pass or wasn't delivered properly or any number of reasons shots were missed.

except your possibilities are guesses whereas the info I provided is demonstrable through the box scores where everyone can see that the rest of the team has been bricking away this year.  I'm not saying he's going to pick up a ton of assists to balance out the TOs because he's always had that issue but there'd be more assists that would improve that ratio a bit.

White and Pritchard haven't shot well but Hauser and Simons are shooting better than they did last year (as have Minott and Garza).

or yet again, you're searching for any reason to dump on Brown.

this year and the past 3 seasons for Jaylen regarding assists and potential assists
25-26: 3.8 asst, 9.0 potential asst
24-25: 4.5 asst, 8.3 potential asst
23-24: 3.6 asst, 6.8 potential asst
22-23: 3.5 asst, 6.6 potential asst.
his asst to potential asst has been pretty consistent until this year.  What's the big difference so far --> teammates missing shots they typically make.  he's upped his potential assists so if shooters were hitting their typical shots, he should have about 4.8-5.0 asst per game, not 3.8.

Or maybe when he plays with Tatum and you know passes to Tatum and has Tatum's gravity everything is different.  You can't compare numbers when a guy is a #2 verse a #1 because in those situations things are different.  When Brown is the #2 everything is easier.  EVERYTHING.  Everything is also easier for everyone else because Tatum is an actual #1.  That is the difference.  Brown is not a #1.  That is fine.  He has always been a #2.  He will be a #2 again next year as well. That is what he is.

[keevsnick]

Celtics are now +35 on the season in point differential, +7 per game average which is 2nd best in the East hilariously.

[slamtheking]

Brown is averaging more turnovers than assists. 

This is what happens when a poor passer and dribbler is forced to be a #1 option.  Only 4 games, it may improve, but his flaws are going to magnified all year with him in the spotlight.

I could not agree, more.

Hopefully he figures out how to facilitate better. I think this season will force him to do so. Browns shooting has been phenomenal, though.

to be fair, those assist numbers would be better had the rest of the "sharp" shooters on this team not been laying bricks the first 3 games.

or maybe he was late on the pass or wasn't delivered properly or any number of reasons shots were missed.

except your possibilities are guesses whereas the info I provided is demonstrable through the box scores where everyone can see that the rest of the team has been bricking away this year.  I'm not saying he's going to pick up a ton of assists to balance out the TOs because he's always had that issue but there'd be more assists that would improve that ratio a bit.

White and Pritchard haven't shot well but Hauser and Simons are shooting better than they did last year (as have Minott and Garza).

or yet again, you're searching for any reason to dump on Brown.

this year and the past 3 seasons for Jaylen regarding assists and potential assists
25-26: 3.8 asst, 9.0 potential asst
24-25: 4.5 asst, 8.3 potential asst
23-24: 3.6 asst, 6.8 potential asst
22-23: 3.5 asst, 6.6 potential asst.
his asst to potential asst has been pretty consistent until this year.  What's the big difference so far --> teammates missing shots they typically make.  he's upped his potential assists so if shooters were hitting their typical shots, he should have about 4.8-5.0 asst per game, not 3.8.

Or maybe when he plays with Tatum and you know passes to Tatum and has Tatum's gravity everything is different.  You can't compare numbers when a guy is a #2 verse a #1 because in those situations things are different.  When Brown is the #2 everything is easier.  EVERYTHING.  Everything is also easier for everyone else because Tatum is an actual #1.  That is the difference.  Brown is not a #1.  That is fine.  He has always been a #2.  He will be a #2 again next year as well. That is what he is.

no one's arguing that Brown is the #2 and that things are easier with Tatum playing.  you just keep moving those goalposts to fit your age old dislike of Brown.  the bottom line is that Brown's asst to TO ratio being worse this season is likely due to players missing shots they normally make as opposed to the grasping-for-straws crap you're peddling. 

tonight, 4 asst to 2 TOs.  people make shots, the percentage improves.

[Moranis]

Brown is averaging more turnovers than assists. 

This is what happens when a poor passer and dribbler is forced to be a #1 option.  Only 4 games, it may improve, but his flaws are going to magnified all year with him in the spotlight.

I could not agree, more.

Hopefully he figures out how to facilitate better. I think this season will force him to do so. Browns shooting has been phenomenal, though.

to be fair, those assist numbers would be better had the rest of the "sharp" shooters on this team not been laying bricks the first 3 games.

or maybe he was late on the pass or wasn't delivered properly or any number of reasons shots were missed.

except your possibilities are guesses whereas the info I provided is demonstrable through the box scores where everyone can see that the rest of the team has been bricking away this year.  I'm not saying he's going to pick up a ton of assists to balance out the TOs because he's always had that issue but there'd be more assists that would improve that ratio a bit.

White and Pritchard haven't shot well but Hauser and Simons are shooting better than they did last year (as have Minott and Garza).

or yet again, you're searching for any reason to dump on Brown.

this year and the past 3 seasons for Jaylen regarding assists and potential assists
25-26: 3.8 asst, 9.0 potential asst
24-25: 4.5 asst, 8.3 potential asst
23-24: 3.6 asst, 6.8 potential asst
22-23: 3.5 asst, 6.6 potential asst.
his asst to potential asst has been pretty consistent until this year.  What's the big difference so far --> teammates missing shots they typically make.  he's upped his potential assists so if shooters were hitting their typical shots, he should have about 4.8-5.0 asst per game, not 3.8.

Or maybe when he plays with Tatum and you know passes to Tatum and has Tatum's gravity everything is different.  You can't compare numbers when a guy is a #2 verse a #1 because in those situations things are different.  When Brown is the #2 everything is easier.  EVERYTHING.  Everything is also easier for everyone else because Tatum is an actual #1.  That is the difference.  Brown is not a #1.  That is fine.  He has always been a #2.  He will be a #2 again next year as well. That is what he is.

no one's arguing that Brown is the #2 and that things are easier with Tatum playing.  you just keep moving those goalposts to fit your age old dislike of Brown.  the bottom line is that Brown's asst to TO ratio being worse this season is likely due to players missing shots they normally make as opposed to the grasping-for-straws crap you're peddling. 

tonight, 4 asst to 2 TOs.  people make shots, the percentage improves.

White and Pritchard shot even worse though.  Brown cut back turnovers last night, he didn't improve his passing. 

[Vermont Green]

I don't know what more you want Brown to do.  Pritchard and White were a combined 9-33.  Is the suggestion that this was due to Brown's bad passing?  That makes no sense.

I think this is about what you are going to get from Brown when he is good.  He was the best player on the court.  Put up an efficient 30 points with the defense focused on him.  Didn't get a ton of rebounds, but got some important ones.  Took care of the ball for the most part.  Was +20.  I am not hung up on assists as a stat.  There is more to creating opportunities for others than how many assists you get.  But I will take 4 assists from Brown on a night he scores 30.

I feel like if Anthony Edwards put up exactly this box score, people would look at that and say he had a great game.  Did his job as the #1.  Brown isn't Tatum, no one is trying to claim he is.  Tatum is better.  Creates for others better, rebounds better.  Brown as the #1 probably does not win a title.  But Brown as the #2 already has.

[slamtheking]

Brown is averaging more turnovers than assists. 

This is what happens when a poor passer and dribbler is forced to be a #1 option.  Only 4 games, it may improve, but his flaws are going to magnified all year with him in the spotlight.

I could not agree, more.

Hopefully he figures out how to facilitate better. I think this season will force him to do so. Browns shooting has been phenomenal, though.

to be fair, those assist numbers would be better had the rest of the "sharp" shooters on this team not been laying bricks the first 3 games.

or maybe he was late on the pass or wasn't delivered properly or any number of reasons shots were missed.

except your possibilities are guesses whereas the info I provided is demonstrable through the box scores where everyone can see that the rest of the team has been bricking away this year.  I'm not saying he's going to pick up a ton of assists to balance out the TOs because he's always had that issue but there'd be more assists that would improve that ratio a bit.

White and Pritchard haven't shot well but Hauser and Simons are shooting better than they did last year (as have Minott and Garza).

or yet again, you're searching for any reason to dump on Brown.

this year and the past 3 seasons for Jaylen regarding assists and potential assists
25-26: 3.8 asst, 9.0 potential asst
24-25: 4.5 asst, 8.3 potential asst
23-24: 3.6 asst, 6.8 potential asst
22-23: 3.5 asst, 6.6 potential asst.
his asst to potential asst has been pretty consistent until this year.  What's the big difference so far --> teammates missing shots they typically make.  he's upped his potential assists so if shooters were hitting their typical shots, he should have about 4.8-5.0 asst per game, not 3.8.

Or maybe when he plays with Tatum and you know passes to Tatum and has Tatum's gravity everything is different.  You can't compare numbers when a guy is a #2 verse a #1 because in those situations things are different.  When Brown is the #2 everything is easier.  EVERYTHING.  Everything is also easier for everyone else because Tatum is an actual #1.  That is the difference.  Brown is not a #1.  That is fine.  He has always been a #2.  He will be a #2 again next year as well. That is what he is.

no one's arguing that Brown is the #2 and that things are easier with Tatum playing.  you just keep moving those goalposts to fit your age old dislike of Brown.  the bottom line is that Brown's asst to TO ratio being worse this season is likely due to players missing shots they normally make as opposed to the grasping-for-straws crap you're peddling. 

tonight, 4 asst to 2 TOs.  people make shots, the percentage improves.

White and Pritchard shot even worse though.  Brown cut back turnovers last night, he didn't improve his passing.

[Moranis]

I don't know what more you want Brown to do.  Pritchard and White were a combined 9-33.  Is the suggestion that this was due to Brown's bad passing?  That makes no sense.

I think this is about what you are going to get from Brown when he is good.  He was the best player on the court.  Put up an efficient 30 points with the defense focused on him.  Didn't get a ton of rebounds, but got some important ones.  Took care of the ball for the most part.  Was +20.  I am not hung up on assists as a stat.  There is more to creating opportunities for others than how many assists you get.  But I will take 4 assists from Brown on a night he scores 30.

I feel like if Anthony Edwards put up exactly this box score, people would look at that and say he had a great game.  Did his job as the #1.  Brown isn't Tatum, no one is trying to claim he is.  Tatum is better.  Creates for others better, rebounds better.  Brown as the #1 probably does not win a title.  But Brown as the #2 already has.

Brown was great last night. Excellent game. And he has been good all year. That isn't what this discussion is about.

[slamtheking]

I don't know what more you want Brown to do.  Pritchard and White were a combined 9-33.  Is the suggestion that this was due to Brown's bad passing?  That makes no sense.

I think this is about what you are going to get from Brown when he is good.  He was the best player on the court.  Put up an efficient 30 points with the defense focused on him.  Didn't get a ton of rebounds, but got some important ones.  Took care of the ball for the most part.  Was +20.  I am not hung up on assists as a stat.  There is more to creating opportunities for others than how many assists you get.  But I will take 4 assists from Brown on a night he scores 30.

I feel like if Anthony Edwards put up exactly this box score, people would look at that and say he had a great game.  Did his job as the #1.  Brown isn't Tatum, no one is trying to claim he is.  Tatum is better.  Creates for others better, rebounds better.  Brown as the #1 probably does not win a title.  But Brown as the #2 already has.

Brown was great last night. Excellent game. And he has been good all year. That isn't what this discussion is about.

yes, yes it is.

[Moranis]

Brown has been good all year.  Shooting well, efficient, solid defense. But what he hasn't been able to do is create the gravity to allow others to orbit him nearly as well.  And I don't believe he will ever be able to do that because it isn't his skill set. He is a #2, not a #1.  There is no shame in that.  It is the people that think he is more than that, that will ultimately be disappointed with his performance.  He is performing like I thought he would.  I even bet the season over on ppg for him.  I expected him to score well all year long. 

[Phantom255x]

I think Jaylen Brown is an awesome #2 on a championship team and he proved that in 2024. That's perfectly fine IMO. I will say though early on this season, he has made some good plays and facilitated but guys like PP, White (early on), etc. are bricking open looks. He could easily have a lot more assists each game and our record could probably be above .500.

The turnovers and dribbling issues will probably always exist and prevent him from being an alpha like Tatum. But I can't really criticize him for the first five games this season, he's mostly been excellent. Jaylen can rebound but he's not really known for it nor expected to and our frontcourt has mostly been abysmal too leading to second chance points and ORebs for other teams.

I still think Jaylen is a Top-15 NBA player in the league if you also factor in defense. Frankly if you did a deep dive on some of the guys in the 10-20 range ahead of him you can easily nitpick stuff on them too and I think a few of them are overrated