NFL 2024-25 Season

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Good read from ProFootballTalk

All-Star crew dynamics might have impacted key spot in Bills-Chiefs
By
Mike Florio
 
Published January 27, 2025 01:23 PM
The process of spotting a ball on a short-yardage play is part science, part art, part dance.

On one side of the field is the Line Judge. Standing on the opposite side of the field is the Down Judge. After the play ends, they begin their walk to the middle of the field on the spot they?ve each identified. If, as they approach each other, it becomes apparent they?re in two different spots, one defers to the other and they meet in what becomes the official spot.

Sometimes, one of the officials will express more forcefully than the other (with words or gestures) a certain degree of confidence in the spot. The other one will have to decide, in a split second, whether to agree or to push back.

On the critical fourth down from Sunday night?s Bills-Chiefs games, the official at the top of the screen was Line Judge Jeff Seeman (standing to the far left in the photo). The official at the bottom of the screen was Down Judge Patrick Holt.

After the play ends, Seeman walks to the scrum on his spot ? the near side of the 40. It?s an indication that Seeman believed Bills quarterback Josh Allen had gotten a first down. Holt, however, was on the far side of the 40, short of the line to gain. And Seeman yielded his spot to Holt?s.

If Holt had deferred to Seeman, the Buffalo drive would have continued.

It?s that simple. Two officials had two different spots, and one gave way to the other.

In this specific case, the guy who had a potential view of the ball gave in to the guy who couldn?t have seen it through Allen?s back. So why did Seeman defer to Holt?

When the postseason starts, the NFL reshuffles crews that have worked together for the entire season. Before Sunday, Holt and Seeman had no history of working together in the 2024 season.

In the regular season, Seeman worked on Shawn Smith?s crew. Holt worked on Shawn Hochuli?s crew. For the NFC Championship, Seeman and Holt were added to a crew led by Clete Blakeman.

(None of Seeman?s regular-season crew members worked with him on Sunday. Holt had worked throughout the regular season with umpire Terry Killens, Jr.)

Regardless of how or why it happened, Seeman gave up his spot to Holt. Even though the ball was facing Seeman, not Holt.

It?s a very tangible example of the various flaws inherent to the current system of spotting the ball. It?s not just what two eyes have seen. It?s what four eyes saw, with two of those eyes potentially surrendering to the other two eyes while the two officials make their way to the middle of the field.

Surely, there?s a better way of making such critical decisions

That's so ridiculous. Add in the "reception" that was really an incomplete pass, and it's easy to see why people think KC gets special treatment.

When was the last time a crucial call in the playoffs went against KC?

[SparzWizard]

Good read from ProFootballTalk

All-Star crew dynamics might have impacted key spot in Bills-Chiefs
By
Mike Florio
 
Published January 27, 2025 01:23 PM
The process of spotting a ball on a short-yardage play is part science, part art, part dance.

On one side of the field is the Line Judge. Standing on the opposite side of the field is the Down Judge. After the play ends, they begin their walk to the middle of the field on the spot they?ve each identified. If, as they approach each other, it becomes apparent they?re in two different spots, one defers to the other and they meet in what becomes the official spot.

Sometimes, one of the officials will express more forcefully than the other (with words or gestures) a certain degree of confidence in the spot. The other one will have to decide, in a split second, whether to agree or to push back.

On the critical fourth down from Sunday night?s Bills-Chiefs games, the official at the top of the screen was Line Judge Jeff Seeman (standing to the far left in the photo). The official at the bottom of the screen was Down Judge Patrick Holt.

After the play ends, Seeman walks to the scrum on his spot ? the near side of the 40. It?s an indication that Seeman believed Bills quarterback Josh Allen had gotten a first down. Holt, however, was on the far side of the 40, short of the line to gain. And Seeman yielded his spot to Holt?s.

If Holt had deferred to Seeman, the Buffalo drive would have continued.

It?s that simple. Two officials had two different spots, and one gave way to the other.

In this specific case, the guy who had a potential view of the ball gave in to the guy who couldn?t have seen it through Allen?s back. So why did Seeman defer to Holt?

When the postseason starts, the NFL reshuffles crews that have worked together for the entire season. Before Sunday, Holt and Seeman had no history of working together in the 2024 season.

In the regular season, Seeman worked on Shawn Smith?s crew. Holt worked on Shawn Hochuli?s crew. For the NFC Championship, Seeman and Holt were added to a crew led by Clete Blakeman.

(None of Seeman?s regular-season crew members worked with him on Sunday. Holt had worked throughout the regular season with umpire Terry Killens, Jr.)

Regardless of how or why it happened, Seeman gave up his spot to Holt. Even though the ball was facing Seeman, not Holt.

It?s a very tangible example of the various flaws inherent to the current system of spotting the ball. It?s not just what two eyes have seen. It?s what four eyes saw, with two of those eyes potentially surrendering to the other two eyes while the two officials make their way to the middle of the field.

Surely, there?s a better way of making such critical decisions

That's so ridiculous. Add in the "reception" that was really an incomplete pass, and it's easy to see why people think KC gets special treatment.

When was the last time a crucial call in the playoffs went against KC?

Ummmm idk maybe the RTP call on Tom Brady in the 2018 AFCCG. Or the Dee Ford offsides 😂 I think after that the Chiefs started getting calls

I heard the Superbowl officiating crew is the.same ref who gave Mahomes a "do over" on 3rd and 9 in that AFCCG against the Bengals. Mahomes already got that in his back pocket waiting.

[green_bballers13]

I still can't get over that spot.  Just utter ridiculousness that in 2025, the NFL is still relying on human judgement on a measurement like that.

The Worthy catch/non-catch was pretty iffy itself but less infuriating that that 4th down spot.

As for the spot of the football, that was a great spot for real time game action. Everyone is an arm-chair referee when they can see slow motion replays. The actual on the field referees don't have that luxury, until a review is called for. As for the replay, there was no clear evidence to overturn the call, as there was no clear view of the ball. There is a certain uncertainty when running a QB sneak, as it's difficult to see the ball.

How hard would it be to put pinpoint location sensors in the ball, I wonder?

Why not just play a video game at that point?

How does getting the call right equate it a video game?

I don't think fans want games decided by human error.

Lol, the game was decided by human error. Not by the referees, but the Buffalo Bills. That team was destined to find a way to lose that game.

Okay, so you have no principled argument, you just dislike the Bills.

Nah, he actually does have an argument.

The Bills beat themselves in that game. Their play calling was abysmal, and Mahomes knows how to make the right play when he needs it. KC beat Buffalo. Not everything is about someone getting screwed over.

[Roy H.]

I still can't get over that spot.  Just utter ridiculousness that in 2025, the NFL is still relying on human judgement on a measurement like that.

The Worthy catch/non-catch was pretty iffy itself but less infuriating that that 4th down spot.

As for the spot of the football, that was a great spot for real time game action. Everyone is an arm-chair referee when they can see slow motion replays. The actual on the field referees don't have that luxury, until a review is called for. As for the replay, there was no clear evidence to overturn the call, as there was no clear view of the ball. There is a certain uncertainty when running a QB sneak, as it's difficult to see the ball.

How hard would it be to put pinpoint location sensors in the ball, I wonder?

Why not just play a video game at that point?

How does getting the call right equate it a video game?

I don't think fans want games decided by human error.

Lol, the game was decided by human error. Not by the referees, but the Buffalo Bills. That team was destined to find a way to lose that game.

Okay, so you have no principled argument, you just dislike the Bills.

Nah, he actually does have an argument.

The Bills beat themselves in that game. Their play calling was abysmal, and Mahomes knows how to make the right play when he needs it. KC beat Buffalo. Not everything is about someone getting screwed over.

KC beat Buffalo.  KC also got the benefit of the doubt on a couple of close calls in a 3 point game.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Good read from ProFootballTalk

All-Star crew dynamics might have impacted key spot in Bills-Chiefs
By
Mike Florio
 
Published January 27, 2025 01:23 PM
The process of spotting a ball on a short-yardage play is part science, part art, part dance.

On one side of the field is the Line Judge. Standing on the opposite side of the field is the Down Judge. After the play ends, they begin their walk to the middle of the field on the spot they?ve each identified. If, as they approach each other, it becomes apparent they?re in two different spots, one defers to the other and they meet in what becomes the official spot.

Sometimes, one of the officials will express more forcefully than the other (with words or gestures) a certain degree of confidence in the spot. The other one will have to decide, in a split second, whether to agree or to push back.

On the critical fourth down from Sunday night?s Bills-Chiefs games, the official at the top of the screen was Line Judge Jeff Seeman (standing to the far left in the photo). The official at the bottom of the screen was Down Judge Patrick Holt.

After the play ends, Seeman walks to the scrum on his spot ? the near side of the 40. It?s an indication that Seeman believed Bills quarterback Josh Allen had gotten a first down. Holt, however, was on the far side of the 40, short of the line to gain. And Seeman yielded his spot to Holt?s.

If Holt had deferred to Seeman, the Buffalo drive would have continued.

It?s that simple. Two officials had two different spots, and one gave way to the other.

In this specific case, the guy who had a potential view of the ball gave in to the guy who couldn?t have seen it through Allen?s back. So why did Seeman defer to Holt?

When the postseason starts, the NFL reshuffles crews that have worked together for the entire season. Before Sunday, Holt and Seeman had no history of working together in the 2024 season.

In the regular season, Seeman worked on Shawn Smith?s crew. Holt worked on Shawn Hochuli?s crew. For the NFC Championship, Seeman and Holt were added to a crew led by Clete Blakeman.

(None of Seeman?s regular-season crew members worked with him on Sunday. Holt had worked throughout the regular season with umpire Terry Killens, Jr.)

Regardless of how or why it happened, Seeman gave up his spot to Holt. Even though the ball was facing Seeman, not Holt.

It?s a very tangible example of the various flaws inherent to the current system of spotting the ball. It?s not just what two eyes have seen. It?s what four eyes saw, with two of those eyes potentially surrendering to the other two eyes while the two officials make their way to the middle of the field.

Surely, there?s a better way of making such critical decisions

That's so ridiculous. Add in the "reception" that was really an incomplete pass, and it's easy to see why people think KC gets special treatment.

When was the last time a crucial call in the playoffs went against KC?

Ummmm idk maybe the RTP call on Tom Brady in the 2018 AFCCG. Or the Dee Ford offsides 😂 I think after that the Chiefs started getting calls

I heard the Superbowl officiating crew is the.same ref who gave Mahomes a "do over" on 3rd and 9 in that AFCCG against the Bengals. Mahomes already got that in his back pocket waiting.

So, it's been quite a while.

[Donoghus]

I still can't get over that spot.  Just utter ridiculousness that in 2025, the NFL is still relying on human judgement on a measurement like that.

The Worthy catch/non-catch was pretty iffy itself but less infuriating that that 4th down spot.

As for the spot of the football, that was a great spot for real time game action. Everyone is an arm-chair referee when they can see slow motion replays. The actual on the field referees don't have that luxury, until a review is called for. As for the replay, there was no clear evidence to overturn the call, as there was no clear view of the ball. There is a certain uncertainty when running a QB sneak, as it's difficult to see the ball.

How hard would it be to put pinpoint location sensors in the ball, I wonder?

Why not just play a video game at that point?

How does getting the call right equate it a video game?

I don't think fans want games decided by human error.

Lol, the game was decided by human error. Not by the referees, but the Buffalo Bills. That team was destined to find a way to lose that game.

Okay, so you have no principled argument, you just dislike the Bills.

Nah, he actually does have an argument.

The Bills beat themselves in that game. Their play calling was abysmal, and Mahomes knows how to make the right play when he needs it. KC beat Buffalo. Not everything is about someone getting screwed over.

KC beat Buffalo.  KC also got the benefit of the doubt on a couple of close calls in a 3 point game.

Exactly.   One call that was incredibly iffy and could've changed the complexity of the game.  Now maybe KC still wins but if they call it a first down instead of a turnover on downs,  that 4th quarter probably looks a bit different.

[SparzWizard]

BREAKING: Myles Garrett is requesting for a trade to be sent to a Superbowl-contending trade, after the Browns have made it clear (previously before Garrett announced it) they won't be moving Garrett.

Browns ain't a contending team lol. No clear direction whatsoever. Awkward up/down situation in Cleveland with Watson issue and things.

The Commanders should be on the phone with them right now.

[SparzWizard]

Cooper Kupp has been informed by the Rams that he will be traded immediately, and will help facilitate to help find him a place for him and his family.

That was just after 7 weeks when the Rams publicly tweeted that he and Puka are a set and cannot be separated lol

[green_bballers13]

Is anyone else getting tired of the referee talk regarding the Chiefs? It reminds me of how the Patriots were treated 10 years ago. It is so easy to discredit success. The Patriots won because of deflated balls, and now the Chiefs win because they pay off refs.

[Goldstar88]

Is anyone else getting tired of the referee talk regarding the Chiefs? It reminds me of how the Patriots were treated 10 years ago. It is so easy to discredit success. The Patriots won because of deflated balls, and now the Chiefs win because they pay off refs.

I don?t think they payoff the refs, but judging by how their games are called and KC getting the benefit of the doubt on the majority of plays, it does seem like the league wanted them to make it back to the SB with a chance to 3peat.

[Vermont Green]

Is anyone else getting tired of the referee talk regarding the Chiefs? It reminds me of how the Patriots were treated 10 years ago. It is so easy to discredit success. The Patriots won because of deflated balls, and now the Chiefs win because they pay off refs.

I don?t think they payoff the refs, but judging by how their games are called and KC getting the benefit of the doubt on the majority of plays, it does seem like the league wanted them to make it back to the SB with a chance to 3peat.

Yeah, kind of like the star calls in the NBA.  The Chiefs do seem benefit on the close calls most of the time.  We'll see how they call the Super Bowl.

[Birdman]

Every decade there is a team who conquer it & ppl root against:

70s Pittsburgh
80s San Francisco
90s Dallas
2000s New England
2010s New England
2020s Kansas City

[Donoghus]

Every decade there is a team who conquer it & ppl root against:

70s Pittsburgh
80s San Francisco
90s Dallas
2000s New England
2010s Kansas City New England
2020s Kansas City

Fixed it for you.

[Birdman]

Every decade there is a team who conquer it & ppl root against:

70s Pittsburgh
80s San Francisco
90s Dallas
2000s New England
2010s Kansas City New England
2020s Kansas City

Fixed it for you.

Lol thanks I meant put 2020s KC

[Neurotic Guy]

Is anyone else getting tired of the referee talk regarding the Chiefs? It reminds me of how the Patriots were treated 10 years ago. It is so easy to discredit success. The Patriots won because of deflated balls, and now the Chiefs win because they pay off refs.

I've been tired of it for a while.  I wonder how the ref conspiracy theorists think these things go down.  Does Goodell call the shot?  Who does he tell?  Does that person go directly to the ref crew?  And how does that conversation go?  Does he meet with the crew or just just one?  Does he actually say, "We need KC to win today" or something like that?  Are refs sureptisiously rewarded for compliance or punished for blowing it?

I am very much a non-conspiracy theorist about just about everything.  Not quite na?ve enough to think conspiracies never happen, but definitely na?ve enough to think that broad conspiracies with big potential consequences don't happen much in today's world because of the likelihood of being caught.  What I'd have to believe is that there isn't a single NFL referee, past or present, who would blow the lid off of a 'fix' or attempted fix.   Even a ref who never put his finger on the scale, but had been asked to, could put the NFL in a bad place.  So Goodell would have to trust implicitly EVERY ref ever hired to keep the big secret.  Baloney.   If this happened to the extent people here discuss it (just about every game), there is not a chance IMO that someone wouldn't blow the whistle (pun stumbled upon) on it.  And if it happens only in the most important games, well, an even bigger risk to the credibility of the NFL.   

And... given that I think none of us would consider Vegas oddsmakers to be naive like me, if they believed such a conspiracy to fix occurs in the NFL, they'd absolutely be filtering that factor into the odds - and I don't believe they do.  The betting world would be turned upside down if games were known to be fixed.   And to be clear, having referees deliberately make calls to favor a particular team is an example of fixing a game.