Feelings on the In Season Tournament?

[Donoghus]

Last night was awesome. 

Scoreboard watching a Raptors/Nets game in November?  Who would've ever thought that. 

Obviously, if someone tears their ACL during the IST Finals and goes out for the season, then I'm singing a different tune, though.

Out of curiosity, how do you see that as different from any other regular season game? The injury could happen in a non IST game. It’s still the same.

Well, a starter playing in the 4th quarter with a 30 point lead playing for point differential wouldn't be happening in a regular game. 

In regards to the IST playoffs, I'm assuming the game is going to be played on another effort level as teams try to win the tournament.  Having a guy play 44 minutes in a December game trying to win a tournament game has more opportunity to injure himself.  A normal December game that might even be a rest game for a star turns into a max effort game. 

You're right that people can get injured at any moment, though. 

[celticsclay]

I liked the idea of it to begin with. I'm a big fan of European soccer and so the idea of in-season tournaments is something familiar to me, though they do it a bit differently - they have separate games for the tournaments because there are a few of them (e.g. in the UK they have the FA Cup, the Carabao Cup, not to mention the inter-league transcontinental cups like the Champions League and Europa Cup) and so the teams have a bigger squad to reflect that. They tend to play their second XI for the lesser cups or games against lesser opposition and the first XI for the big games, because their Cups are open to all teams in their league, not just the top league - you have teams from lower divisions (aka the G-League) competing with the likes of Liverpool and Manchester City so you get Cinderella stories like you do with the NCAA tournament.

With the NBA Cup obviously workload would be an issue with additional games or including G-league teams so the whole doubling up of regular season games by rebranding some of them as in season games, and then having to figure out which games would be the knockout ones that would also double up as regular season games was confusing. But I think it's added some excitement to some games that would otherwise just be ho hum.

Even the points differential thing added some spice to the games last night as we tried to work out how many points each team needed to win by to make the QFs. Again, I'm probably more used to points differentials being used to work out which teams progress because of being a soccer fan, but it might not be for everyone. Personally I have no problem with watching blowouts, and little patience for players on the losing team complaining about "disrespect" - its a professional league where people are getting paid millions, not AAU or college, if you don't want to get blown out then play better 

Maybe they can tweak a few things, and I'm sure they will - to me the biggest tweak they could make to make it really meaningful is to make it so that the winner is guaranteed at least a play in berth in the actual playoffs. That would make it really meaningful. But conceptually I think it's going to be a winner.

I generally agree with you that the sportsmanship and playing with respect thing gets overblown. If a team wants to work on something during a game they are up or down big I’m totally fine with it. That being said, intentionally fouling up 30 is not something that has any place in sports. If for nothing else, the game is completely over it and you are extending it by multiple possessions when the only significant thing that could happen is an injury (and significant players were still on the court). I think we will see a tweak on that part of it because that shouldn’t really happen again and I understand why Donovan was upset.

[RJ87]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

[hpantazo]

I think it brings a level of intensity and interest to the early season games that had been missing for a while now, so it's good. I expect the knockout round will be pretty cool, the NCAA style single game elimination aspect of it will be exciting.

I also think the long-term goal of this for the NBA is to test out and gradually introduce an NCAA style playoff format that may one day be needed if the league expands enough with international franchises.

[theswitch]

It's definitely made some of these games really interesting and fun. It's certainly worked -- the players seem to care quite a bit.

I don't love the perverse incentive of if you win, you have to play the winners...that means your strength of schedule gets hit. The Knicks play the Bucks. We get the winner if we advance. The Lakers have the Suns. There are some other non-IST matchups that are compelling (Nuggets - Clippers, Cavs - Heat) but wouldn't you rather play the Spurs? Rockets? You're much more likely to get a bad team if you don't advance in the IST. We probably got the luckiest draw with the Pacers. And that all counts the same in the 82.

So I found it a little awkward to say "well the Celtics are going to probably get the #1 or #2 seed anyways so what's a game or two" but if I'm a team like the Lakers then two more tough regular season games might be the difference between the #5 seed and the play-in. It's material.

[PAOBoston]

Last night was awesome. 

Scoreboard watching a Raptors/Nets game in November?  Who would've ever thought that. 

Obviously, if someone tears their ACL during the IST Finals and goes out for the season, then I'm singing a different tune, though.

Out of curiosity, how do you see that as different from any other regular season game? The injury could happen in a non IST game. It’s still the same.

Well, a starter playing in the 4th quarter with a 30 point lead playing for point differential wouldn't be happening in a regular game. 

In regards to the IST playoffs, I'm assuming the game is going to be played on another effort level as teams try to win the tournament.  Having a guy play 44 minutes in a December game trying to win a tournament game has more opportunity to injure himself.  A normal December game that might even be a rest game for a star turns into a max effort game. 

You're right that people can get injured at any moment, though.

I will be in the minority here but I guess from my perspective as a fan and someone who’s pays money to see these guys live, if you are forking out the cash, I want to see the starters play, even in a blowout. That’s what you pay for. It’s entertainment. You should get your money’s worth.

[celticsclay]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

[Goldstar88]

Fair or foul?

https://twitter.com/CelticsCLNS/status/1729712153215521277?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1729712153215521277%7Ctwgr%5E79780da697f2f8654e404aab4f4979601d06286b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fhoopshype.com%2Fteam%2Fboston-celtics%2F

[Roy H.]

Fair or foul?

https://twitter.com/CelticsCLNS/status/1729712153215521277?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1729712153215521277%7Ctwgr%5E79780da697f2f8654e404aab4f4979601d06286b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fhoopshype.com%2Fteam%2Fboston-celtics%2F

It's a fair take.  A lot of people expressed it.

[RJ87]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

I don't really have an issue with it. Either the league wants teams to care about the IST or they don't. You can't put in things like point differential and then call it unsportsmanlike when coaches and teams actually strategize to get the job done. In this tournament, the point differential does matter and hack-a-Drummond is a proven strategy with an 11-year sample size that Andre hasn't been able correct.

We still had an opportunity for home court advantage in the semis with a point differential of 39, I think. Joe went for it. This is the NBA and these players make millions of dollars as the best in the world, right? Again, if you get embarrassed when the opposing team exploits an obvious weakness, improve the weakness or expect your coach to adjust.   

[hpantazo]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

I don't really have an issue with it. Either the league wants teams to care about the IST or they don't. You can't put in things like point differential and then call it unsportsmanlike when coaches and teams actually strategize to get the job done. In this tournament, the point differential does matter and hack-a-Drummond is a proven strategy with an 11-year sample size that Andre hasn't been able correct.

We still had an opportunity for home court advantage in the semis with a point differential of 39, I think. Joe went for it. This is the NBA and these players make millions of dollars as the best in the world, right? Again, if you get embarrassed when the opposing team exploits an obvious weakness, improve the weakness or expect your coach to adjust.

Exactly, this is not CYO basketball where you feel bad about embarrassing some kid who has no business being on the court to begin with. These are professional basketball players making millions of dollars to be out there. It's on them to improve their professional skill. If they can't shoot free throws the opponent should exploit it fully.

[Goldstar88]

Here’s Jrue’s take on the IST.

https://x.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1729708023776428446?s=20

[Roy H.]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

I don't really have an issue with it. Either the league wants teams to care about the IST or they don't. You can't put in things like point differential and then call it unsportsmanlike when coaches and teams actually strategize to get the job done. In this tournament, the point differential does matter and hack-a-Drummond is a proven strategy with an 11-year sample size that Andre hasn't been able correct.

We still had an opportunity for home court advantage in the semis with a point differential of 39, I think. Joe went for it. This is the NBA and these players make millions of dollars as the best in the world, right? Again, if you get embarrassed when the opposing team exploits an obvious weakness, improve the weakness or expect your coach to adjust.

Exactly, this is not CYO basketball where you feel bad about embarrassing some kid who has no business being on the court to begin with. These are professional basketball players making millions of dollars to be out there. It's on them to improve their professional skill. If they can't shoot free throws the opponent should exploit it fully.

I went to my daughter's first middle school game last night.  The other team beat them 78-4.  If the sixth grade girls can take it, grown men should be able to.

[celticsclay]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

I don't really have an issue with it. Either the league wants teams to care about the IST or they don't. You can't put in things like point differential and then call it unsportsmanlike when coaches and teams actually strategize to get the job done. In this tournament, the point differential does matter and hack-a-Drummond is a proven strategy with an 11-year sample size that Andre hasn't been able correct.

We still had an opportunity for home court advantage in the semis with a point differential of 39, I think. Joe went for it. This is the NBA and these players make millions of dollars as the best in the world, right? Again, if you get embarrassed when the opposing team exploits an obvious weakness, improve the weakness or expect your coach to adjust.

Exactly, this is not CYO basketball where you feel bad about embarrassing some kid who has no business being on the court to begin with. These are professional basketball players making millions of dollars to be out there. It's on them to improve their professional skill. If they can't shoot free throws the opponent should exploit it fully.

I went to my daughter's first middle school game last night.  The other team beat them 78-4.  If the sixth grade girls can take it, grown men should be able to.

Well, I don’t think that is a great situation for your daughter’s school to be involved in. If a team is that overmatched, they are probably overmatched physically (correct me if I’m wrong) and games like that are usually a higher injury risk.

As for the play in tournament if you got multiple star players on the Celtics saying they felt weird about the situation and didn’t like it, we should probably respect their opinions on it as the guys putting their bodies and millions of dollars on the line. Well it is very much an old school talking point to say “you don’t like it, stop it you are a professional” I don’t think extending a decided game with fouls falls under this saying. I also suspect given the number of players that have spoken out we will see some tweaks. One tweak suggested was to make the first round games 5 instead of 4 so there will be less teams with the same records and less importance of point differential. I suspect we see something like that. Very few people want to see intentional fouls in a thirty point game. It’s frankly not even basketball at that point.

[ozgod]

I was indifferent about it when the season started, still indifferent to it now. I just don't care about it on any level.

With that said, I think the talk about sportsmanship is way overblown. The other team doesn't want to get shown up after going down big? They should play harder and not go down by 20+ points. The Bulls gave up early on, why should it be on the Celtics to coddle them and massage their egos? Don't want to be embarrassed, start by not embarrassing yourselves.

I agree with you about running up the score in general. But do you feel like intentional fouling up 30 and making the game go longer falls under this? To me it is even about trying to play basketball at that point.

I don't really have an issue with it. Either the league wants teams to care about the IST or they don't. You can't put in things like point differential and then call it unsportsmanlike when coaches and teams actually strategize to get the job done. In this tournament, the point differential does matter and hack-a-Drummond is a proven strategy with an 11-year sample size that Andre hasn't been able correct.

We still had an opportunity for home court advantage in the semis with a point differential of 39, I think. Joe went for it. This is the NBA and these players make millions of dollars as the best in the world, right? Again, if you get embarrassed when the opposing team exploits an obvious weakness, improve the weakness or expect your coach to adjust.

Exactly, this is not CYO basketball where you feel bad about embarrassing some kid who has no business being on the court to begin with. These are professional basketball players making millions of dollars to be out there. It's on them to improve their professional skill. If they can't shoot free throws the opponent should exploit it fully.

I went to my daughter's first middle school game last night.  The other team beat them 78-4.  If the sixth grade girls can take it, grown men should be able to.

I remember being beaten 100-6 when I was in middle school 

And to Celticsclay's point, I vaguely remember being really overmatched, both physically and skills wise. I vaguely remember trying to defend a kid that was head and shoulders taller than us and just shot over us all day  1But we gave it a go. It was either that or not play a game at all.

I feel like the reason the players are speaking out is because running up the score in general is seen as bad form in American sports, even in professional leagues...it's part of all these unwritten rules like don't swing on a 3-0 when you're up big, don't flip your bat and admire your home run, don't dunk the ball if you are leading by 30+ with 2 min to go, just kneel if you are up big in football, etc. They don't want to be on the wrong end of being labelled as violating one of those unwritten rules.

Some of it is predicated on things that make logical sense, like why try to make football plays and run the risk of injury in a contact sport, or why keep starters in a basketball game when you can manage their workload and reduce the risk of injury...but others are just there to basically not make the other team look or feel bad. We saw Cryrie throw the ball in the stands when Jamal Murray tried to shoot a 3 to get 50 at the end of a Denver-Boston game in 2018, we've seen Cam Payne from Phoenix get mad at Zion for doing a 360 dunk with 1.9 seconds to go and his team up 128-117...they get cut up because they feel the other team is showboating on them and it's not good form.

Personally I can understand the former, I have no time for the latter. If you want to stop the other team doing whatever they want, then do so on the court. Whining about being showboated on when you are a professional player in a league where even vets make $2m a season and stars can make $30-$60m, I don't think you have any call to expect the other team to go easy on you. The way I see it, not letting up is the best way to show respect, because you respect the other team enough to not want to give them even a sniff of coming back. And teams have come back from huge deficits, both in football (28-3 anyone), basketball (think of all the 20+ point leads that can get erased in a couple of minutes when people get hot from 3) or baseball where teams have come back from 8-10 run deficits.

These are pros, not school teams. School teams you're trying to teach them about sportsmanship, winning with grace and losing with pride, and also because, like my and Roy's daughter's middle school teams, there can be a big imbalance in the talent level on both sides. Even in college sports you can have a Div 1 team end up playing a lesser team where the talent disparity is apparent, and the coaches may decide to take their foot off the gas if the game gets decided. But I don't think pro players can use that excuse.

What's interesting is this running up the score aversion seemed to be a uniquely American thing - when I lived in Sydney and London and watched rugby and cricket games teams had zero issue with running up the score, if you look at the recent Rugby World Cup France beat Namibia 96-0, the NZ All Blacks beat Italy 96-17, England beat Chile 71-0, etc. In those countries the fans and players get insulted if the other team takes their foot off the gas, because that's seen as being patronizing and a sign of disrespect. It's funny how different cultures view this through different lenses 

All that being said, it's the first year and they will probably solicit feedback from players, coaches and other experts to work out what they can bring forward and what they can tweak. I suspect the intentional fouling thing was only done because Drummond can't shoot free throws to save his life. I agree it looks dumb but I think it was done to gain an advantage towards pushing the point differential as high as they could to ensure qualification, which only happens when the final whistle blows. If Drummond hadn't been on the court, if Billy had subbed him out, then they wouldn't be fouling anyone as there would be no advantage. Isn't that the reason why Ben Simmons can't be in Brooklyn's closing lineup? Because he shoots 30% from the line? If Billy didn't want Andre to be fouled and look bad at the line then he should have subbed him out, it was under his control.