2023 CS Historic Draft - How's My Team?

[Moranis]

Interesting forum debate on where Sheed rates All-Time at the PF position over at RealGM.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1965786

Many have Sheed as top 20 All-Time alongside some others from this draft like Kemp, Aldridge, B Griffin. Some have Pau and C-Webb as top ten. Not sure if I saw Elton Brand mentioned or not. Cummings the odd mention. Jermaine O'Neal some but more as peak rather than career. A little Z-Bo. Mo Lucas maybe one mention.


So with (1) Webber moving over to C and (2) with Pau starting alongside Amare, I have Pau at center and Amare at PF because that is how teams will matchup against them. That leaves the debate for best PF in the league down to Kemp vs Sheed for me.

I see Kemp as having the higher individual qualities but Sheed being more cerebral and better able to fit into any system / set of teammates. Not sure which way I go with that. Very close. They are my two favourite PFs here.

That is interesting regarding Pau and Amar'e, because offensively I'm playing Pau more in the high post, stretch the floor, type PF role with Amar'e playing much closer to the basket, but I think you are right that defensively more teams would put the quicker PF type big man on Amar'e and the slower more traditional center on Pau.  But that is why, I really like my team.  I don't think they can be defended well enough by anyone as the only guy you can really double with is the PG and those guys can't effectively double on Amar'e, Pau, or Dantley.  They'd get killed and I really don't think there is a team woth enough capable defenders and that can avoid foul trouble.

[Who]

From one interesting post from that thread...I'm trying to retrace steps and figure out how Portland screwed up such an immaculate bigs situation. They go to the Western Conference Finals with a bunch of veterans -- Rasheed and Sabonis at power forward and center -- and a young, evolving Jermaine O'Neal on the bench. In the offseason they decide the best move is to trade for an aging Shawn Kemp and a Dale Davis who is past his prime. It's not a disaster but the team loses its high end potential as guys like Pippen, Steve Smith, et al roll off.

Then they get Zach Randolph. The first year they think he can start, they trade Rasheed Wallace and they start to stink after that. Is that right?

What a missed opportunity to play a Rasheed - Jermaine combination as a power forward and center instead of that Kemp / Davis trade. And then to groom Randolph.

Rasheed and JO as a combination in the early-to-mid 2000s frontline would've been so cool.

I watched Sheed's interview on the Knuckleheads podcast. Darius Miles was on that team too. They were talking about it. Sheed was starting at center. Z-Bo at PF. Miles at SF. They had just won 7 straight or something like that. They were rolling. This was the first time in D Miles' career that he was part of a winning team.

And then they trade Sheed and blow it all up. Enter the Jailblazers era. Some of them were already there but now that was all there was. No more winning. No more playoffs. A 20 year streak of never missing the playoffs over. Gone. D Miles stuck on another losing team all over again. Never apart of a winner. This was the closest he got.

Sheed had warned Miles previously that he was about to be traded. They had fired the head of the front office who had built the previous era and replaced him with the guy who traded Sheed after Sheed's rookie year in Washington. Sheed said "he'll trade me again". Wasn't sure what this GM had against him but Sheed felt sure this guy didn't like him / rate him. That his time in Portland was over. He was about to be kicked out. This new GM would do it. And so he did.

Sounded like D Miles and Sheed really enjoyed playing together and that they liked that team they were on with Z-Bo. That they good winning chemistry and felt they could have been good together if they had of kept the team together.

But Sheed felt from the moment that new GM was hired that that was never on the cards. He was on his way out.

[Who]

From one interesting post from that thread...I'm trying to retrace steps and figure out how Portland screwed up such an immaculate bigs situation. They go to the Western Conference Finals with a bunch of veterans -- Rasheed and Sabonis at power forward and center -- and a young, evolving Jermaine O'Neal on the bench. In the offseason they decide the best move is to trade for an aging Shawn Kemp and a Dale Davis who is past his prime. It's not a disaster but the team loses its high end potential as guys like Pippen, Steve Smith, et al roll off.

Then they get Zach Randolph. The first year they think he can start, they trade Rasheed Wallace and they start to stink after that. Is that right?

What a missed opportunity to play a Rasheed - Jermaine combination as a power forward and center instead of that Kemp / Davis trade. And then to groom Randolph.

Rasheed and JO as a combination in the early-to-mid 2000s frontline would've been so cool.

There was an interesting story with Jermaine too. I forget the exact details but this is my best recollection of it.

I believe this was also from the Knuckleheads podcast but the episode they did with JO. I was binge watching a bunch of these podcasts in the week leading up to and first week of this Historical Draft. Listening to various players that were on my draft board.

Anyway,

If I remember right, JO demanded a trade. That the bridges there were broken the previous season and he was fed up with not playing. He was constantly being promised a bigger role, performing well and then never receiving the extra playing time. They even gave him a big contract extension with the promise of a bigger role but that bigger role never came. Burnt bridges.

JO wanted out. Portland acquiesced. They traded him for Dale Davis who had just earned his first All-Star appearance, been a leading player on the Pacers team that made the Finals, and was their main big man defender against Shaq in a way that young JO was not physically able to be. A possible final piece to the team? Perhaps. Or a replacement for Brian Grant who was leaving in a trade for Kemp? Maybe.

Portland always liked JO but could never get enough playing time. In fairness, he was behind one of the best PFs in the league in Sheed, one of the best centers in A Sabonis and perhaps a 2nd top 10 PF in the league in Brian Grant.

Plus then he had to compete with (1) Kelvin Cato who was a bigger body defensively at 6-11 260lbs and a good player himself who would go on to be a starting center in Houston (2) Detlef Schrempf who primarily played SF but could play some PF in smaller lineups. So even after the main 3 big man (Sheed, B Grant, A Sabonis) who were eating up the majority of the playing time, JO was still competing with two other guys for the leftover minutes. So he wasn't even getting them all the time. It was a bad situation for him.

And Portland were a win-now team. It was tough to get him extra playing time. Sounds like they knew he had a bright future and they were risk losing out if they didn't hold onto him ... but they couldn't get him enough playing time to keep him happy in the interim while still giving it their best shot at winning in the moment with an old veteran team. JO got squeezed.


Wrong decision but you can see why it happened.


JO and Sheed together certainly would have been awesome. It would have kept Portland up near the top of the West. Bonzi Wells, Damon Stoudamire, Derek Anderson. Maybe they could've kept Cato. Imagine if they got Z-Bo on top of that. Either a title contender or dang close to one.

[Moranis]

Portland was never going to win a title with that team.  At some point, you have to realize you don't have the horses and just start over.  Far too many teams hang on for far too long, even ones that have a top tier player, you know like the current Blazers.  They should have moved on from Lillard a couple of years ago after the 19-20 season when they were below .500 and just eeked into the playoffs.  They did go 42-30 the next year, but again 1st round playoff loser.  Their best shot was 19 when they made the WCF, but that was always the best they were going to do.  They should have realized that and moved on. 

Sheed and JO would have been a playoff team, but they weren't winning the title.  Even in those post-Shaq Laker years (before the rise of Lebron) when the league was a bit more in flux and a bit more open for the taking.  They were never going to be good enough.  The problem was, the trades of JO and Sheed just weren't good.  They didn't get back any young players or draft picks.  The Blazers traded Sheed to Atlanta on February 9th along with Wesley Person and acquired Abdur-Rahim, Ratliff, and Dickau.  Just 10 days later, the Hawks traded Sheed to the Pistons.  In that trade were 2 1st round picks, one went to Atlanta (Josh Smith at 17) and the other to Boston (Tony Allen at 25).  Ratliff and Abdur-Rahim were fine, but they weren't as good as Sheed.  10 days later, Atlanta gets what ended up being the 17th pick in the draft for Sheed.  That is the sort of mismanagement a team like the Blazers can't have.

[Who]

Starting centers

Shoot with range

- Lanier
- Yao
- Zo
- C-Webb
- Pau
- M Gasol
- Vlade

Short to midrange 10-15 footer

- Artis

No range

- Dwight
- Mutombo
- Joakim Noah
- Ben Wallace


So 33% of the teams have a center with no real scoring threat outside the paint. And Artis just a small threat.

7/12 teams have a center who can shoot with range.

[Who]

Bench centers

Shoot with range

- Daugherty
- Sikma
- Laimbeer
- Cousins
- R Sampson
- A Sabonis
- D Issel
- Ibaka
- K Willis

Short to midrange 10-15 footer

- A Bynum

No range

- Ratliff
- Tyson


Interesting that there are less bad shooters in the bench corps than the starters. Only 2/12 teams. 16%.

75% of the teams have a center who can shoot with range.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

How are we doing on ballot submissions?

[gouki88]

How are we doing on ballot submissions?

7 GM submissions and 1 external thus far. Will send a reminder PM to those who have not this evening (my time), noting that a couple of folks have already flagged busy periods

[theswitch]

How are we doing on ballot submissions?

7 GM submissions and 1 external thus far. Will send a reminder PM to those who have not this evening (my time), noting that a couple of folks have already flagged busy periods

It's going to be interesting to see how much consensus there is. I could see a couple teams having a low standard deviation of where they were ranked and then 7-9 teams have a huge one (some people ranking them at the top, others ranking towards the bottom).

[Kernewek]

Late to the party on the commentary, and I don’t usually go for the nephew/uncle dynamic because I’m not big on honourifics, but that real GM thread re/Sheed feels full of nephews to me.

[theswitch]

Another topic -- if you could just take the listed bench 5 from each team, whose do you like the most? Mine aside, the following stand out to me:

Chicago, with Blake and Daugherty as the best bench combination in this thing
OKC, where you give Baron Davis and Michael Redd the keys and they go to town while Gerald Wallace and Tyson Chandler hold down the fort (and if you give credit to the 11th and 12th guys, then Houston and Kukoc are great)
Cleveland, where IT4 running with Cousins is the most fun 1+5 combo of the group and 2-4 is just solid
Washington, which is probably my favorite, where the backcourt coverage of Arenas + Tony Allen, the scoring of Aguirre, and Boozer + Sabonis is pretty cool

[gouki88]

Another topic -- if you could just take the listed bench 5 from each team, whose do you like the most? Mine aside, the following stand out to me:

Chicago, with Blake and Daugherty as the best bench combination in this thing
OKC, where you give Baron Davis and Michael Redd the keys and they go to town while Gerald Wallace and Tyson Chandler hold down the fort (and if you give credit to the 11th and 12th guys, then Houston and Kukoc are great)
Cleveland, where IT4 running with Cousins is the most fun 1+5 combo of the group and 2-4 is just solid
Washington, which is probably my favorite, where the backcourt coverage of Arenas + Tony Allen, the scoring of Aguirre, and Boozer + Sabonis is pretty cool

Cleveland for me. Boogie and IT are both incredibly talented players. Starter level talent who are unstoppable when they're on

[Moranis]

Another topic -- if you could just take the listed bench 5 from each team, whose do you like the most? Mine aside, the following stand out to me:

Chicago, with Blake and Daugherty as the best bench combination in this thing
OKC, where you give Baron Davis and Michael Redd the keys and they go to town while Gerald Wallace and Tyson Chandler hold down the fort (and if you give credit to the 11th and 12th guys, then Houston and Kukoc are great)
Cleveland, where IT4 running with Cousins is the most fun 1+5 combo of the group and 2-4 is just solid
Washington, which is probably my favorite, where the backcourt coverage of Arenas + Tony Allen, the scoring of Aguirre, and Boozer + Sabonis is pretty cool

I'd put McGinnis and Issel up against Blake and Brad any day of the week and feel pretty good about coming out on top. 

[smokeablount]

If I had more time, I would actually input every team into the whatifsports.com simulator and play it out.

Plugged the Nets in, just over 76 million payroll

        Pos   Player   PPG   RPG   APG   TOPG   SPG   BPG   Salary
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PG   82-83 Maurice Cheeks   12.5   2.6   6.9   2.3   2.3   0.4   $5,547,898
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PG   76-77 Don Buse   8.0   3.3   8.5   2.9   3.5   0.2   $5,364,734
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SG   05-06 Richard Hamilton   20.1   3.2   3.4   2.2   0.7   0.2   $5,988,858
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SG   92-93 Drazen Petrovic   22.3   2.7   3.5   2.9   1.3   0.2   $5,678,184
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SF   83-84 Adrian Dantley   30.6   5.7   3.9   3.3   0.8   0.1   $7,894,051
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SF   03-04 Jim Jackson   12.9   6.1   2.8   2.2   1.1   0.3   $6,178,492
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SF   02-03 Bruce Bowen   7.1   2.9   1.4   0.9   0.8   0.5   $4,829,901
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PF   79-80 Dan Roundfield   16.5   10.3   2.3   2.9   1.2   1.7   $6,749,531
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PF   09-10 Pau Gasol   18.3   11.3   3.4   2.2   0.6   1.7   $6,473,563
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PF   78-79 George McGinnis   22.6   11.4   3.7   4.6   1.7   0.7   $6,302,113
Clear Spot   Replace Player   C   04-05 Amare Stoudemire   26.0   8.9   1.6   2.4   1.0   1.6   $7,978,527
Clear Spot   Replace Player   C   79-80 Dan Issel   23.8   8.8   2.4   2.0   1.1   0.7   $7,300,735
Totals   18.3   6.4   3.6   2.5   1.3   0.7   $76,286,587

The Chicago Bulls, in the seasons I picked, check in at $87.4M

Draft Picks: 12/12  Payroll: $87,394,785

SF   02-03 Tracy McGrady   32.1   6.5   5.5   2.6   1.7   0.8   $8,438,463
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SG   77-78 David Thompson   27.6   4.9   4.5   3.1   1.2   1.2   $7,701,548
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PF   13-14 Blake Griffin   24.1   9.5   3.9   2.8   1.2   0.6   $7,683,940
Clear Spot   Replace Player   C   76-77 Bob Lanier   25.6   11.6   3.3   2.6   1.1   2.0   $6,513,862
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PG   07-08 Deron Williams   18.8   3.0   10.5   3.4   1.1   0.3   $7,599,447
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PF   91-92 Larry Nance   17.0   8.3   2.9   1.1   1.0   3.0   $8,010,350
Clear Spot   Replace Player   C   92-93 Brad Daugherty   20.2   10.2   4.4   2.1   0.7   0.8   $7,169,405
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SG   96-97 Hersey Hawkins   13.9   3.9   3.0   1.6   1.9   0.1   $6,536,899
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SF   06-07 Tayshaun Prince   14.3   5.2   2.8   1.2   0.6   0.7   $6,924,962
Clear Spot   Replace Player   PG   16-17 John Wall   23.1   4.2   10.7   4.1   2.0   0.6   $7,306,597
Clear Spot   Replace Player   C   06-07 Marcus Camby   11.2   11.7   3.2   1.7   1.2   3.3   $6,145,544
Clear Spot   Replace Player   SG   80-81 Micheal Ray Richardson   16.4   6.9   7.9   3.8   2.9   0.4   $7,363,768
Totals   20.3   7.0   5.3   2.5   1.4   1.1   $87,394,785

[gouki88]

I’ve sent a PM to the last GMs for their ballot. Once received, I can start publishing results