Chris Mannix: Worried about Porzingis

[Moranis]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

its a typcial Moranis list. you should see his list trying to justify that Jaylen isn't a top 20 player. He says we as fans always overrate our players. but he will do the exact opposite and throw anyone in there to show that our players really aren't that good. not saying KP is a top 5 big.  But I mean i'm not sure if Randle/Bam are really that much better....KP was an intriguing prospect on the Knicks. then Dallas couldnt really find a way to use him with Doncic and he kind of was unseen on the wizards.

But he's entering his "NBA Prime" of 27 years old. so there is optimism that his last year jump in performance is really just understanding the game now.

either way, whether KP is top 10 or outside of top 10 hes not coming here to be a #1 or even #2 option. he's coming here to be a #3 option and offer something different offensively and help make things easier for tatum/brown.

he's a type of player we haven't had on our team really before in the tatum/brown era. a guy who can score in the post, can also pop out for a 3 or mid range and someone who can beat the zone. At least we haven't had since Horford became more of a roleplayer

It is funny, I put together what I feel is a thoughtful post based on some statistical research, and some opinion, to try and come up with where Porzingis is on the list of top bigs.  You expect people to disagree or have different opinions when the statement is about something as specific as a list of top players.  And for all of that, you get back a comment like "I can't believe you think Porzingis is going to be more durable than Anthony Davis".  OK, fine, who knows.  I don't really know what the disagreement is sometimes.

As to the list, I don't feel you can say that Anthony Davis is for sure going to be better than Porzingis over the next few seasons.  That is why I put him in the "about the same" tier.  I also could have called that tier, "could go either way" tier.  In any given season some in that tier may have a better season than Porzingis, others won't, due to any number of factors.  I see it as really hard to put that 4-8 group or 5-10 group in any specific order.  I am actually pretty happy to have Porzingis on the Celtics out of that group.  I think he is going to defend better and fit in to the team better than Towns, for example.  I like Adebayo but his offense is more limited than Porzingis.  I think Porzingis' offensive versatility is going to fit really well with Tatum and Brown.

So yeah, unless we are playing MIL or DEN or PHI, the Celtics have a good chance to have the best big on the floor, at worst about the same as the best.  Add in to that the fact that with Tatum, we are usually going to have the best wing too.  And that does not even get to Brown.  And we are also going to have the best or one of the best 6th man.  This team is going to be really good.  That is the point, not whether Porzingis is 4th or 7th or 10th.  Towns may have a great year and end up ahead of him.  Davis may stay healthy all year.  If that happens, maybe Porzingis ends up 6th or 7th.  That is how it seems like it is going to go to me.

I never said that and you know it.  I just questioned why you docked a clearly better player for durability when you are comparing him to a player that also has significant durability issues.  And Davis is objectively and subjectively clearly better than Porzingis.  Porzingis absolutely could be healthier, but that doesn't make him better. 

[Moranis]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

its a typcial Moranis list. you should see his list trying to justify that Jaylen isn't a top 20 player. He says we as fans always overrate our players. but he will do the exact opposite and throw anyone in there to show that our players really aren't that good. not saying KP is a top 5 big.  But I mean i'm not sure if Randle/Bam are really that much better....KP was an intriguing prospect on the Knicks. then Dallas couldnt really find a way to use him with Doncic and he kind of was unseen on the wizards.

But he's entering his "NBA Prime" of 27 years old. so there is optimism that his last year jump in performance is really just understanding the game now.

either way, whether KP is top 10 or outside of top 10 hes not coming here to be a #1 or even #2 option. he's coming here to be a #3 option and offer something different offensively and help make things easier for tatum/brown.

he's a type of player we haven't had on our team really before in the tatum/brown era. a guy who can score in the post, can also pop out for a 3 or mid range and someone who can beat the zone. At least we haven't had since Horford became more of a roleplayer

My ratings of players do not change when they switch teams, whether that is leaving the Celtics or coming to the Celtics.  I've heard this nonsense about me denigrating Celtics players for years, yet I've been pretty consistently correct.  Brown is not a top 20 player in the league and I do think he'd better on a different team because his skill set is basically a lesser version of Tatum.  Too much duplication and Brown isn't elite at anything and is a well below average creator.  So because he isn't an elite shooter, defender, etc. and can't create very well (especially for others), he is a poor fit next to Tatum.  If he went to another team, I'd expect his impact to wins and losses to be greater, but he still wouldn't be a top 20 player without significant improvement (which is unlikely given his experience) or others with degradation. 

[Who]

I have time for the talent upgrade / downgrade argument.

If you view it solely as individual talent, it is clearly a major upgrade for Boston. If you view it as collective talent, it is more debatable to me.

I am concerned about the level of individualism on this team with Jaylen, Porzingis and Brogdon. I am comfortable with Tatum as a team player and I love the team skills of D White, Horford and Timelord. I do not love the team skills of the three supporting stars. I feel all 3 are out for themselves. Individuals not team players.

I liked what Smart and G Will brought to the team in terms of teamwork and improving collective talent. Improving our team defense. More passing. The outside shooting of G Will. The ball-handling of Smart. Tough boxing out. Always willing to give themselves and their bodies up for the team.

I'm not sure if the team is more talented than last year. I liked the comment earlier about "higher ceiling, lower floor". I see that as well. I see this team as more variable in its outcomes. Less dependable. Less solid. But also more dynamic.

(1) I expect Horford will take a pretty big step back this year not because of decline but because his role will change with Porzingis coming in and taking a lot of his touches. Similar to Duncan's decline in last year after L Aldridge arrived. That wasn't a decline in individual talent but a decline due to collective fit. I see Horford going through the same thing with Porzingis.

(2) I also wonder how well Porzingis and Timelord will play together given both want to be the interior big. Porzingis not as effective if forced to only be a stretch big to keep spacing while Timelord is in.

(3) I wonder about a decline in defensive mentality with Porzingis in there who isn't as commited a defender. He has some defensive talent. He is not a liability but nor is he a high end defender. It certainly is not his priority out there. Scoring is his priority. If Timelord and Porzingis do not gel well, does that lead to less Timelord and does that hurt our defense? Probably so. Smart brought great defensive intensity. G Will brought defensive emphasis. Both were physical players and instigators. Porzingis more of a finesse defender who effects opponents with his height & length. Porzingis doesn't move his feet as well on defense anymore. He doesn't switch well. He doesn't cover the PnR well. We will see declines in those areas while seeing an improvement in shot-blocking.

(3) The passing and turnovers is an area of concern for me. BOS improved last year because of the two guard two SF one big formation they used. That gave them extra ball security by having extra ball-handlers and passers out there. They will be more turnover prone next year by returning to the double big lineup and the two big wings one PG perimeter formation.


I do not know if this team is more talented or less talented than last year's team but I am open to the idea. Or if it is similar talent, a lateral move, with a different appearence.

I agree that the individual talent has seen a major upgrade but I am unsure about the collective talent. I don't know that I agree with Mannix but I certainly do not see the idea as crazy or anything like that.

[footey]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

its a typcial Moranis list. you should see his list trying to justify that Jaylen isn't a top 20 player. He says we as fans always overrate our players. but he will do the exact opposite and throw anyone in there to show that our players really aren't that good. not saying KP is a top 5 big.  But I mean i'm not sure if Randle/Bam are really that much better....KP was an intriguing prospect on the Knicks. then Dallas couldnt really find a way to use him with Doncic and he kind of was unseen on the wizards.

But he's entering his "NBA Prime" of 27 years old. so there is optimism that his last year jump in performance is really just understanding the game now.

either way, whether KP is top 10 or outside of top 10 hes not coming here to be a #1 or even #2 option. he's coming here to be a #3 option and offer something different offensively and help make things easier for tatum/brown.

he's a type of player we haven't had on our team really before in the tatum/brown era. a guy who can score in the post, can also pop out for a 3 or mid range and someone who can beat the zone. At least we haven't had since Horford became more of a roleplayer

My ratings of players do not change when they switch teams, whether that is leaving the Celtics or coming to the Celtics.  I've heard this nonsense about me denigrating Celtics players for years, yet I've been pretty consistently correct.  Brown is not a top 20 player in the league and I do think he'd better on a different team because his skill set is basically a lesser version of Tatum.  Too much duplication and Brown isn't elite at anything and is a well below average creator.  So because he isn't an elite shooter, defender, etc. and can't create very well (especially for others), he is a poor fit next to Tatum.  If he went to another team, I'd expect his impact to wins and losses to be greater, but he still wouldn't be a top 20 player without significant improvement (which is unlikely given his experience) or others with degradation.

Who really cares about these ratings? Kind of silly.  All I care is whether or not the Celtics are better positioned to win the NBA championship next season.  I think they are.

[Moranis]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

its a typcial Moranis list. you should see his list trying to justify that Jaylen isn't a top 20 player. He says we as fans always overrate our players. but he will do the exact opposite and throw anyone in there to show that our players really aren't that good. not saying KP is a top 5 big.  But I mean i'm not sure if Randle/Bam are really that much better....KP was an intriguing prospect on the Knicks. then Dallas couldnt really find a way to use him with Doncic and he kind of was unseen on the wizards.

But he's entering his "NBA Prime" of 27 years old. so there is optimism that his last year jump in performance is really just understanding the game now.

either way, whether KP is top 10 or outside of top 10 hes not coming here to be a #1 or even #2 option. he's coming here to be a #3 option and offer something different offensively and help make things easier for tatum/brown.

he's a type of player we haven't had on our team really before in the tatum/brown era. a guy who can score in the post, can also pop out for a 3 or mid range and someone who can beat the zone. At least we haven't had since Horford became more of a roleplayer

My ratings of players do not change when they switch teams, whether that is leaving the Celtics or coming to the Celtics.  I've heard this nonsense about me denigrating Celtics players for years, yet I've been pretty consistently correct.  Brown is not a top 20 player in the league and I do think he'd better on a different team because his skill set is basically a lesser version of Tatum.  Too much duplication and Brown isn't elite at anything and is a well below average creator.  So because he isn't an elite shooter, defender, etc. and can't create very well (especially for others), he is a poor fit next to Tatum.  If he went to another team, I'd expect his impact to wins and losses to be greater, but he still wouldn't be a top 20 player without significant improvement (which is unlikely given his experience) or others with degradation.

Who really cares about these ratings? Kind of silly.  All I care is whether or not the Celtics are better positioned to win the NBA championship next season.  I think they are.

I think they are as well, though keeping Grant would have been most optimal for me.

[wiley]

There are always worries. This doesn't stand out from any of the others....
Most big trades are a gamble...we'll see.

[jambr380]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

Yeah, you know Moranis, but I generally see his point. Like, who in the world has Porzingis as the 4th best big in the NBA.

Of the listed Bigs, I would take Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Davis, Towns, Zion, and Siakam ahead of Porzingis (so 11th). And probably have him ahead of guys like Randle, Markkanen, Ayton, Vucevic, Capela, etc. Not sure where to place Gobert, but he is definitely also a difference maker.

11th is still really good and you will often have the best big on the floor in any given game, but I'll need to see a healthy, productive season from Porzingis to be fully all the way on board. Either way, I'm excited about his arrival and am hopeful that he does raise the ceiling for the Cs.

Also, really great exercise by VG!

[gouki88]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

Yeah, you know Moranis, but I generally see his point. Like, who in the world has Porzingis as the 4th best big in the NBA.

Of the listed Bigs, I would take Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Davis, Towns, Zion, and Siakam ahead of Porzingis (so 11th). And probably have him ahead of guys like Randle, Markkanen, Ayton, Vucevic, Capela, etc. Not sure where to place Gobert, but he is definitely also a difference maker.

11th is still really good and you will often have the best big on the floor in any given game, but I'll need to see a healthy, productive season from Porzingis to be fully all the way on board. Either way, I'm excited about his arrival and am hopeful that he does raise the ceiling for the Cs.

Also, really great exercise by VG!

I have a bit of an issue with Zion and Siakam being listed as "bigs"

[BitterJim]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

Yeah, you know Moranis, but I generally see his point. Like, who in the world has Porzingis as the 4th best big in the NBA.

Of the listed Bigs, I would take Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Davis, Towns, Zion, and Siakam ahead of Porzingis (so 11th). And probably have him ahead of guys like Randle, Markkanen, Ayton, Vucevic, Capela, etc. Not sure where to place Gobert, but he is definitely also a difference maker.

11th is still really good and you will often have the best big on the floor in any given game, but I'll need to see a healthy, productive season from Porzingis to be fully all the way on board. Either way, I'm excited about his arrival and am hopeful that he does raise the ceiling for the Cs.

Also, really great exercise by VG!

Sounds like you mean 10th?

[Who]

Porzingis is a tough guy to rank. He has the skill level of a top 10 talent. If you are bullish on him, he has the performance level of someone in the 20th overall range. If you are more skeptical of him, you may rank him anywhere from 25-40th. When he had bad times in Dallas, he played more like a top 75 player (similar level to Marcus Smart).

Lot of variability to him.

[Who]

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Also, really great exercise by VG!

Agreed. Fun idea.

I don't compare Porzingis to PFs. I don't think he can play there full time anymore. So I am going to scratch all PFs off the list. So that is Zion, Giannis, Markkanen and Siakam. I am only going to compare Porzingis to other centers.

I have Jokic, Embiid, A Davis, Towns and Bam Adebayo as my top five centers. I have Porzingis in the next group in the 6-10 range. I have Gobert, D Sabonis, M Turner and Ayton. Then just outside that group I have B Lopez, W Carter Jr, Vucevic, Valanciunas, Kessler. That is my top 15. Or perhaps Wemby in that final 15th slot instead of Kessler.

I currently have Gobert and D Sabonis ahead of Porzingis. Porzingis is more talented than either but I do not trust him (his performance level) as much as the other two. I wonder about M Turner. Turner is the better defensive player; Porzingis the better scorer. I have Ayton behind them all at #10. So I have Porzingis at 8 or 9. Fair argument for him over Sabonis or Gobert but I lean the other way.

[jambr380]

Based on this discussion, I got curious about ranking the top "bigs" in the league and where Porzingis ranks.  The definition of "big" can be somewhat subjective but for my analysis, I took only players that are clearly a PF or a C as their natural position, no swings or any other marginal interpretation of position.  To get the list, I went to traditional player stats for 2022-23 regular season.  I filtered for GP>50 and REB>8.  Then I ranked by PTS/GM.  The resulting list was not perfect, it included Doncic, Tatum, and LeBron, who I sorted out as not bigs, but the remaining 30 or so I felt were clearly bigs.  Here is the list or the top 10 (again, ranked on scoring):

Embiid
Giannis
Davis
Markkanen
Randle
Jokic
Porzingis
Adebayo
Sabonis
Ayton

I went through the next 11-25 or so to pick outliers that may warrant making a top 15.  Towns didn't make the sort due to games.  Siakam only had 7.8 rebs.  Capela and Gobert don't score like some of the others but excel in defense and rebounding.  And I added Vucevic as he was 11th by the original sort and I didn't see anyone else who would clearly bump him.  So the remaining 5 are:

Vucevic
Towns
Siakam
Gobert
Capela

I think that is a fair top 15 list of bigs.  Most teams still start 2 bigs, but not all.  The main question is, where does Porzingis rank on this list.  I think of it as who would I rather have on the Celtics in place of Porzingis for the next 1-3 season.  Durability is a factor to consider.  Contract can be kept out of it (most of these have pretty big contracts anyway).  I know Zion is a consideration but I kept him out, he can be considered though if you would rather have him for the next 1-3 seasons than Porzingis.

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Just a fantastic post.  I might have Davis listed as "definitely better" than Porzingis, but that's just me.

Even then, as a top 5 big in the league?  That's a huge pickup by Brad.  And we got the better end of the deal in those trades.

I marked Davis down on durability.  I agree that when he is on the court, he is probably a little better.  But I am not sure I would trade Porzingis for him straight up with the view of the next 3 seasons.  Perfectly reasonable to have him ahead though.

You marked Davis for durability, but not Porzingis.  That seems weird given how many games Porzingis has missed (Davis has missed a bit more over the last 4 years, but it isn't all that many more).

Nearly all the bigs have some level of durability concern.  My expectation is that Porzingis is going to hold up better than Davis over the next few seasons. That Porzingis will play more games moving forward. I have them ranked overall about the same although I would not swap them straight up, I prefer Porzingis, but not by a ton.

So where do you rank Porzingis? 5th with Davis 4th?  That is fine, perfectly reasonable opinion.

i'd have Towns ahead of Zinger as well, probably Bam, and if I had any confidence in zion staying healthy him as well.   I can see arguments for a guys like Sabonis and Randle as well (much better passers and rebounders).  So Zinger is at least 7 behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Bam.  But I could see a reasonable argument he isn't even a top 10 big.  Zinger is a fine player, solid all around skills, but he isn't an elite defender (like Bam) or an elite offensive player (like Towns).  He is fine as a 3rd option, but can't be a 2nd option, so I think he has to be behind the guys that have shown that ability.

Classic overrating of a player now that he is on your favorite team.  Typical fan thing to do.

You are funny. You list 7 ahead of him (all reasonable btw - though I’d put him even with Towns and Bam) and 2 that you could see an argument for.  That’s 9. Then you say you could see a reasonable argument that he’s not a top 10 big.  So you  made an argument that he could be #10 - if you placed EVERY questionably better player ahead of him.  So I think by definition it probably isn’t a reasonable argument to place him out of the top 10.  That of course doesn’t mean you can’t make the argument.

Yeah, you know Moranis, but I generally see his point. Like, who in the world has Porzingis as the 4th best big in the NBA.

Of the listed Bigs, I would take Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Sabonis, Towns, Bam, Davis, Towns, Zion, and Siakam ahead of Porzingis (so 11th). And probably have him ahead of guys like Randle, Markkanen, Ayton, Vucevic, Capela, etc. Not sure where to place Gobert, but he is definitely also a difference maker.

11th is still really good and you will often have the best big on the floor in any given game, but I'll need to see a healthy, productive season from Porzingis to be fully all the way on board. Either way, I'm excited about his arrival and am hopeful that he does raise the ceiling for the Cs.

Also, really great exercise by VG!

Sounds like you mean 10th?

No way - I'm obviously a huge fan of Towns /s

[ozgod]

Mannix is always worried. He's the new master of panic.

It's interesting as he was all for this trade right after it happened on NBC Sports Boston's Early Edition a month go.

Celtics fans/media are always about "big change, trade so and so!" until it actually happens. then their role players become Jordan/pippin and how could management do this!

I think injury history is a concern. especially when you have alot of other injury prone players.

But Mannix harping about "talent" makes no sense.  take away emotions and its easier to find a marcus smart/Grant williams than a big who averages 20/10.

case in point that White/Brogdon/Horford all are on this team, have similar stats and can easily step into that role.

i'm of the opinion that the NBA is a talent league. Depth is important, but two 15ppg players doesn't necessarily equal one 20-25ppg player. especially when you get into the playoffs and talent generally matters more.

TP for making me laugh with the Jordan/Pippen thing 

[action781]

Talent is needed of course, but I think chemistry is the real differentiator.  Looking back:

2023 Denver great chemistry
2022, 2015, 2017, 2018 GSW elite chemistry for all along with just pure elite talent for 2 of them
2021 Bucks very complementary players all having solid and accepted roles
2020 and 2015 Lebron LAL and Cavs teams are the 2 main exceptions here IMO, while his 2 Heat title teams I thought had very good chemistry
2019 Raptors had good chemistry, but a lucky season with GSW's injuries
2003, 2005, 2007, 2014 Spurs all elite chemistry of course
2011 Mavs great chemistry
2009 and 2010 Lakers pretty mediocre chemistry, but they worked well together
2008 Celtics had great chemistry
2006 Heat had well defined roles and role players
2004 Pistons great chemistry and identity

And that covers every NBA champion over the past 20 seasons.  And the word chemistry starts to look weird when you type it so many times.

I'll be curious how the Celtics chemistry comes into form this season.

[LilRip]

My list of for sure better are:

Embiid
Giannis
Jokic

That is it.  Then there is a list of "about the same":

Davis
Markkanen
Towns
Adebayo
(Zion)

I have Porzingis in the 4-8 range of all bigs.  Maybe 5-10.  That essentially means we are going to have the best big on the floor most of the time, maybe as much as 25 of 30.  Durability is the biggest concern with Porzingis but many of these top bigs have that concern also.  Jokic is pretty amazing in that regard.  He has been extremely durable, part of why he is really the #1 big of all of them.

Also, really great exercise by VG!

Agreed. Fun idea.

I don't compare Porzingis to PFs. I don't think he can play there full time anymore. So I am going to scratch all PFs off the list. So that is Zion, Giannis, Markkanen and Siakam. I am only going to compare Porzingis to other centers.

I have Jokic, Embiid, A Davis, Towns and Bam Adebayo as my top five centers. I have Porzingis in the next group in the 6-10 range. I have Gobert, D Sabonis, M Turner and Ayton. Then just outside that group I have B Lopez, W Carter Jr, Vucevic, Valanciunas, Kessler. That is my top 15. Or perhaps Wemby in that final 15th slot instead of Kessler.

I currently have Gobert and D Sabonis ahead of Porzingis. Porzingis is more talented than either but I do not trust him (his performance level) as much as the other two. I wonder about M Turner. Turner is the better defensive player; Porzingis the better scorer. I have Ayton behind them all at #10. So I have Porzingis at 8 or 9. Fair argument for him over Sabonis or Gobert but I lean the other way.

If we assume health holds up? Then Zinger is easily not-top 5:
Jokic
Giannis
Embiid
Zion
Davis
Bam
Towns

I have them all ahead of Zinger. He’s firmly in the next tier of bigs though, which also reads some impressive players:
Zinger
Sabonis
Markkanen
Vucevic

I think those guys are clearly a step above the next tier of bigs like Gobert (wow this dude has fallen off), Turner, Siakam, Ayton, etc.