Author Topic: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now  (Read 7214 times)

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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2023, 06:18:08 PM »

Offline cman88

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Lillard is going to miami. hes not coming to boston.

fans here need to accept that. Not sure the obsession with a 33 year old undersized point guard who isn't great at defense and may fall off a cliff in the next 2 years making $60million.

My guess is most people only watch maybe 1-2 Portland games a year.

Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2023, 06:27:51 PM »

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According to @ramonashelburne, the Celtics have expressed interest in acquiring Damian Lillard and have the assets to get it done, but they are not on his list.

Boston is “not a city that (Lillard) would necessarily welcome going to right now.”

This isn't the first leak that Lillard doesn't want to play here. Can we stop now? We're too good a franchise to have to pine after players.

Reminds me of that saying "it doesn't matter if you are the first choice, the second choice or even the 7th choice. It only matters that you are the right choice".

I have no issue with not being the top of Dame's wish list or even on his wish list. That does not mean he won't be able to see the value in being here after thinking about it some more. After being able to talk to people and see what opportunities are here.

In the end, I believe Lillard will see what Boston has to offer him and be delighted to get to play here. Just like KG was after initially not being interested in coming.

The first reaction / early responses do not matter. It is the response after the dust is settled that matters.

The KG thing really isn't similar. KG had concerns about talent level because we really only had Paul Pierce. His tune changed once we added Ray Allen. Then he thought we had enough to win a championship.

Talent isn't an issue with this current team. He'd be joining a team with a 1st team All-NBA forward and a really good big man in KP at the very least.

KG also had concerns about living in Boston. It wasn't just about talent.

And that goes to my point. KG might've had additional concerns, but in the end we upgraded the talent and he bought in. There's no talent upgrade to be made here, that talent is on the team already and Dame still doesn't want any part of it.

I don't know what Dame's Boston aversion is, but I have no interest in trading for a player who can't see that this team is already a contender because is winning really their priority? Will we give up assets for him just to request out at the deadline or in the offseason?

Kawhi was traded to Toronto, won a championship and still bolted. These guys don't stay where they don't want to be.

I wouldn't trade for Lillard without talking to him first and getting his buy-in. I have no interest in an unhappy player who doesn't want to be here.

But I also wouldn't stop pursuing him until I have had a chance to talk to him about the team and tried to convince him that this is a good place for him to be.

I feel very good about our chances to convince him to come here given the talent at our disposal and our chances of winning a title with Lillard here.

Yes if he’s a hard no and can’t be convinced I think it would be a waste of time and assets to force him to come here via trade. It’s not a “we’re in charge, we’re bringing you here and you can suck it up” situation where the team wins and Dame loses. There’s many ways a resentful player can wreck your dressing room. Most players are professional but if he really doesn’t want to be here (and I don’t know that for sure) then move on. He’s not worth that risk.
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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2023, 06:42:53 PM »

Offline RJ87

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According to @ramonashelburne, the Celtics have expressed interest in acquiring Damian Lillard and have the assets to get it done, but they are not on his list.

Boston is “not a city that (Lillard) would necessarily welcome going to right now.”

This isn't the first leak that Lillard doesn't want to play here. Can we stop now? We're too good a franchise to have to pine after players.

Reminds me of that saying "it doesn't matter if you are the first choice, the second choice or even the 7th choice. It only matters that you are the right choice".

I have no issue with not being the top of Dame's wish list or even on his wish list. That does not mean he won't be able to see the value in being here after thinking about it some more. After being able to talk to people and see what opportunities are here.

In the end, I believe Lillard will see what Boston has to offer him and be delighted to get to play here. Just like KG was after initially not being interested in coming.

The first reaction / early responses do not matter. It is the response after the dust is settled that matters.

The KG thing really isn't similar. KG had concerns about talent level because we really only had Paul Pierce. His tune changed once we added Ray Allen. Then he thought we had enough to win a championship.

Talent isn't an issue with this current team. He'd be joining a team with a 1st team All-NBA forward and a really good big man in KP at the very least.

KG also had concerns about living in Boston. It wasn't just about talent.

And that goes to my point. KG might've had additional concerns, but in the end we upgraded the talent and he bought in. There's no talent upgrade to be made here, that talent is on the team already and Dame still doesn't want any part of it.

I don't know what Dame's Boston aversion is, but I have no interest in trading for a player who can't see that this team is already a contender because is winning really their priority? Will we give up assets for him just to request out at the deadline or in the offseason?

Kawhi was traded to Toronto, won a championship and still bolted. These guys don't stay where they don't want to be.

I wouldn't trade for Lillard without talking to him first and getting his buy-in. I have no interest in an unhappy player who doesn't want to be here.

But I also wouldn't stop pursuing him until I have had a chance to talk to him about the team and tried to convince him that this is a good place for him to be.

I feel very good about our chances to convince him to come here given the talent at our disposal and our chances of winning a title with Lillard here.

Yes if he’s a hard no and can’t be convinced I think it would be a waste of time and assets to force him to come here via trade. It’s not a “we’re in charge, we’re bringing you here and you can suck it up” situation where the team wins and Dame loses. There’s many ways a resentful player can wreck your dressing room. Most players are professional but if he really doesn’t want to be here (and I don’t know that for sure) then move on. He’s not worth that risk.

"If he can't be convinced"

Why do we need to convince him? Why are we begging?

We have the talent. We're well-run. Despite the reputation issues, Boston is still a big market and will get national attention. We're not a poverty franchise. We shouldn't have to act like it.
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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2023, 06:47:02 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Lillard is going to miami. hes not coming to boston.

fans here need to accept that. Not sure the obsession with a 33 year old undersized point guard who isn't great at defense and may fall off a cliff in the next 2 years making $60million.

My guess is most people only watch maybe 1-2 Portland games a year.

I don’t think he will come here nor do I want him at the cost of brown and someone else. I don’t buy that it is just a done deal he goes to Miami though. Maybe a 3 team deal can get worked out but the idea the blazers will take some crap deal because Lilliard only wants to play for one team that has poor assets seems strange

Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2023, 06:55:23 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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Miami still the third best team in the east even with him

Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2023, 07:28:05 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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According to @ramonashelburne, the Celtics have expressed interest in acquiring Damian Lillard and have the assets to get it done, but they are not on his list.

Boston is “not a city that (Lillard) would necessarily welcome going to right now.”

This isn't the first leak that Lillard doesn't want to play here. Can we stop now? We're too good a franchise to have to pine after players.

Ramona would be the last person I'd want insight into what the Celtics are doing, and she has no sources... just speculating. Her full quote is much softer than what the tweet above suggests.

Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2023, 07:29:49 PM »

Offline greg683x

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If I understand the rules correctly, if we trade brown now, he’s no longer eligible for the supermax with his new team.  If he signs the supermax in Boston we can’t trade him for a year.

If that’s correct, I’d assume Jaylen would want to just wait and become and UFA and not sign an extension in Portland.  I wouldnt blame him either.  If that’s the case then I don’t understand how getting Jaylen would be appealing at all for the Blazers.

We also can’t sign Jaylen to a max deal then all acquire Lillard bc I believe there’s a rule against having more than 3 max players on a roster.  Again, if I’m understanding the rules correctly.

And if I am, I feel like all this talk is moot
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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2023, 07:33:07 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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If I understand the rules correctly, if we trade brown now, he’s no longer eligible for the supermax with his new team.  If he signs the supermax in Boston we can’t trade him for a year.

If that’s correct, I’d assume Jaylen would want to just wait and become and UFA and not sign an extension in Portland.  I wouldnt blame him either.  If that’s the case then I don’t understand how getting Jaylen would be appealing at all for the Blazers.

We also can’t sign Jaylen to a max deal then all acquire Lillard bc I believe there’s a rule against having more than 3 max players on a roster.  Again, if I’m understanding the rules correctly.

And if I am, I feel like all this talk is moot

Someone says new cba got rid of they 3 max player limitation

Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2023, 07:42:32 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Brown for Dame would be a terrible swap for the Celtics. Really terrible.
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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2023, 08:03:11 PM »

Offline greg683x

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If I understand the rules correctly, if we trade brown now, he’s no longer eligible for the supermax with his new team.  If he signs the supermax in Boston we can’t trade him for a year.

If that’s correct, I’d assume Jaylen would want to just wait and become and UFA and not sign an extension in Portland.  I wouldnt blame him either.  If that’s the case then I don’t understand how getting Jaylen would be appealing at all for the Blazers.

We also can’t sign Jaylen to a max deal then all acquire Lillard bc I believe there’s a rule against having more than 3 max players on a roster.  Again, if I’m understanding the rules correctly.

And if I am, I feel like all this talk is moot

Someone says new cba got rid of they 3 max player limitation

Ok I stand corrected.  I found a link to confirm it too.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/36025332/nba-nbpa-agree-new-7-year-collective-bargaining-agreement
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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2023, 10:39:01 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Brown for Dame would be a terrible swap for the Celtics. Really terrible.

Why do you say that? 

I initially thought the same, but after thinking more deeply about it I'm not so sure.  I can see a few reasons why we might be better off with Dame than Brown:

1. Better basketball fit
A Lillard/Tatum/Porzingis combination seems to me like a much more balanced talent combination then Brown/Tatum/Porzingis.  Brown and Tatum are such similar players - they basically bring the same thing to the table while also having the same weaknesses, so when a team finds a way to exploit those weaknesses the whole team falls apart.  The three key weaknesses that Tatum and Brown both suffer from most are inconsistent scoring in clutch situations, and ballhandling/playmaking weaknesses that can result in mass turnovers when exploited.  I feel replacing Brown with Lillard addresses all three of those issues beacuse he is an elite clutch scorer, a very good ball handling, an a well above average ball handler.  Having him on the court removes the need for Tatum to be our primary ball handler and gives us a go-to guy we can depend on in end game situations.

2. Veteran leadership
A second key issue we have suffered from over the years is that we are consistently trying to push two young stars into forced leadership roles, when neither to this point has really been ready to make that transition.  They are both getting better at being leaders, but it's something that can't be rushed and that they need to be eased in to, and it may take a couple of years before they find that skill - and some stars (like Harden, Embiid) never seem to get there at all.  Bringing in Lillard gives us an immediate veteran who can be a leader both on the court and in the locker room, and having him out there takes pressure off Tatum and allows him to grow in to that leadership role over the next couple of years.  Tatum could probably also learn a ton from somebody like Lillard, which may even help him develop in to that future leader later down the line.

3. Future flexibility
Right now Boston has Porzingis signed for 3 years, with Brown due for a supermax extension and Tatum due for one of his own in the near future.  Locking up Tatum and Brown to long term supermax deals not only ties up a lot of cap space for a very long time (restricting financial flexiblity), but it also basically forces us to put all our hope on those two guys for the next 4-5 years.  Tatum and Brown have yet to show that they can carry this team to a title, and whlie I'm hopefully that will one day change it's still very much up in the air.  It already feels like there is unspoken animosity between Tatum and Brown, and a bit of a power struggle, so if we lock both guys in for the next 4-5 years and don't win a title in the next 2 seasons, I can see that relationship turning sour and one of those guys requesting a trade.  On the contrary Lillard is only guaranteed for the next 3 years - same with Porzingis.  That means Boston would only be committed to the Lillard/Tatum/KP big 3 for three years, which is a fairly decent championship window.  If the lineup dosnt work as expected by the end of year 3 then Boston can move on from Porzingis and Lillard and retool around Tatum - who will by then be around 28 years old and right in the very core of his prime. 

There are of course some downsides to the deal. 

* If Brown and Tatum DID manage to work out they would give us a 5-6 year championship window, and trading Brown for Lillard reduces that window to around 3 years.

* Health is a major concern for both Lillard and Porzingis, and this introduces a very real risk to the deal.  if the dice rolls the wrong way for those guys then it could hold back the teams hopes of success in a huge way.

* Lillard has expressed pretty clearly that he does not see Boston as one of his favoured destinations.  This isn't necessary a deal breaker, because I think most players who end up in Boston end up loving it once they get there, and winning/success makes it easier to be happy no matter where ou are.  If Lilllard can win a title in Boston then I can't imagine him complaining or wanting to leave.  That said there is still a small risk that if he really doesn't want to be in Boston he could try to pull a James Harden and compromise the team to try to force a trade.  Lillard seems like a pretty good guy though, so I really don't see him going to those extents.

Overall I can see good and bad in both options, but if Brad intends to go all in on trying to maximise odds of winning one or more titles, then I think making this trade hugely increases our probability of achieving that goal.  With Brown I think our chance at a title is decent-to-good.  With Lillard I think the probability of winning a title is excellent, and we probably become instant title favourites.

Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2023, 10:59:51 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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If I understand the rules correctly, if we trade brown now, he’s no longer eligible for the supermax with his new team.  If he signs the supermax in Boston we can’t trade him for a year.

If that’s correct, I’d assume Jaylen would want to just wait and become and UFA and not sign an extension in Portland.  I wouldnt blame him either.  If that’s the case then I don’t understand how getting Jaylen would be appealing at all for the Blazers.

We also can’t sign Jaylen to a max deal then all acquire Lillard bc I believe there’s a rule against having more than 3 max players on a roster.  Again, if I’m understanding the rules correctly.

And if I am, I feel like all this talk is moot

Someone says new cba got rid of they 3 max player limitation

Ok I stand corrected.  I found a link to confirm it too.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/36025332/nba-nbpa-agree-new-7-year-collective-bargaining-agreement

I do think that this was also only a limitation for supermax contracts, not regular max contracts - am I right?  I'm pretty sure Philly have had more than 2 players on max contracts in the past (Simmons, Embiid, Harris). 

Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2023, 11:44:59 PM »

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Pre-Porzingis, I would’ve been onboard

Now that KP is here, I’d rather have JB. I’m comfy with a big 3 of JB, JT, KP
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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2023, 11:36:21 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Brown for Dame would be a terrible swap for the Celtics. Really terrible.

Why do you say that? 

I initially thought the same, but after thinking more deeply about it I'm not so sure.  I can see a few reasons why we might be better off with Dame than Brown:

1. Better basketball fit
A Lillard/Tatum/Porzingis combination seems to me like a much more balanced talent combination then Brown/Tatum/Porzingis.  Brown and Tatum are such similar players - they basically bring the same thing to the table while also having the same weaknesses, so when a team finds a way to exploit those weaknesses the whole team falls apart.  The three key weaknesses that Tatum and Brown both suffer from most are inconsistent scoring in clutch situations, and ballhandling/playmaking weaknesses that can result in mass turnovers when exploited.  I feel replacing Brown with Lillard addresses all three of those issues beacuse he is an elite clutch scorer, a very good ball handling, an a well above average ball handler.  Having him on the court removes the need for Tatum to be our primary ball handler and gives us a go-to guy we can depend on in end game situations.

2. Veteran leadership
A second key issue we have suffered from over the years is that we are consistently trying to push two young stars into forced leadership roles, when neither to this point has really been ready to make that transition.  They are both getting better at being leaders, but it's something that can't be rushed and that they need to be eased in to, and it may take a couple of years before they find that skill - and some stars (like Harden, Embiid) never seem to get there at all.  Bringing in Lillard gives us an immediate veteran who can be a leader both on the court and in the locker room, and having him out there takes pressure off Tatum and allows him to grow in to that leadership role over the next couple of years.  Tatum could probably also learn a ton from somebody like Lillard, which may even help him develop in to that future leader later down the line.

3. Future flexibility
Right now Boston has Porzingis signed for 3 years, with Brown due for a supermax extension and Tatum due for one of his own in the near future.  Locking up Tatum and Brown to long term supermax deals not only ties up a lot of cap space for a very long time (restricting financial flexiblity), but it also basically forces us to put all our hope on those two guys for the next 4-5 years.  Tatum and Brown have yet to show that they can carry this team to a title, and whlie I'm hopefully that will one day change it's still very much up in the air.  It already feels like there is unspoken animosity between Tatum and Brown, and a bit of a power struggle, so if we lock both guys in for the next 4-5 years and don't win a title in the next 2 seasons, I can see that relationship turning sour and one of those guys requesting a trade.  On the contrary Lillard is only guaranteed for the next 3 years - same with Porzingis.  That means Boston would only be committed to the Lillard/Tatum/KP big 3 for three years, which is a fairly decent championship window.  If the lineup dosnt work as expected by the end of year 3 then Boston can move on from Porzingis and Lillard and retool around Tatum - who will by then be around 28 years old and right in the very core of his prime. 

There are of course some downsides to the deal. 

* If Brown and Tatum DID manage to work out they would give us a 5-6 year championship window, and trading Brown for Lillard reduces that window to around 3 years.

* Health is a major concern for both Lillard and Porzingis, and this introduces a very real risk to the deal.  if the dice rolls the wrong way for those guys then it could hold back the teams hopes of success in a huge way.

* Lillard has expressed pretty clearly that he does not see Boston as one of his favoured destinations.  This isn't necessary a deal breaker, because I think most players who end up in Boston end up loving it once they get there, and winning/success makes it easier to be happy no matter where ou are.  If Lilllard can win a title in Boston then I can't imagine him complaining or wanting to leave.  That said there is still a small risk that if he really doesn't want to be in Boston he could try to pull a James Harden and compromise the team to try to force a trade.  Lillard seems like a pretty good guy though, so I really don't see him going to those extents.

Overall I can see good and bad in both options, but if Brad intends to go all in on trying to maximise odds of winning one or more titles, then I think making this trade hugely increases our probability of achieving that goal.  With Brown I think our chance at a title is decent-to-good.  With Lillard I think the probability of winning a title is excellent, and we probably become instant title favourites.
I agree he'd be a better fit and an upgrade on offense but he'd be a big step back on defense and it would mean trading a 26 year old wing who is only just entering his prime for a 33 year old guard. That doesn't sit right with me.
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Re: Can we trade Brown for Dame Now
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2023, 12:02:30 PM »

Online ozgod

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According to @ramonashelburne, the Celtics have expressed interest in acquiring Damian Lillard and have the assets to get it done, but they are not on his list.

Boston is “not a city that (Lillard) would necessarily welcome going to right now.”

This isn't the first leak that Lillard doesn't want to play here. Can we stop now? We're too good a franchise to have to pine after players.

Reminds me of that saying "it doesn't matter if you are the first choice, the second choice or even the 7th choice. It only matters that you are the right choice".

I have no issue with not being the top of Dame's wish list or even on his wish list. That does not mean he won't be able to see the value in being here after thinking about it some more. After being able to talk to people and see what opportunities are here.

In the end, I believe Lillard will see what Boston has to offer him and be delighted to get to play here. Just like KG was after initially not being interested in coming.

The first reaction / early responses do not matter. It is the response after the dust is settled that matters.

The KG thing really isn't similar. KG had concerns about talent level because we really only had Paul Pierce. His tune changed once we added Ray Allen. Then he thought we had enough to win a championship.

Talent isn't an issue with this current team. He'd be joining a team with a 1st team All-NBA forward and a really good big man in KP at the very least.

KG also had concerns about living in Boston. It wasn't just about talent.

And that goes to my point. KG might've had additional concerns, but in the end we upgraded the talent and he bought in. There's no talent upgrade to be made here, that talent is on the team already and Dame still doesn't want any part of it.

I don't know what Dame's Boston aversion is, but I have no interest in trading for a player who can't see that this team is already a contender because is winning really their priority? Will we give up assets for him just to request out at the deadline or in the offseason?

Kawhi was traded to Toronto, won a championship and still bolted. These guys don't stay where they don't want to be.

I wouldn't trade for Lillard without talking to him first and getting his buy-in. I have no interest in an unhappy player who doesn't want to be here.

But I also wouldn't stop pursuing him until I have had a chance to talk to him about the team and tried to convince him that this is a good place for him to be.

I feel very good about our chances to convince him to come here given the talent at our disposal and our chances of winning a title with Lillard here.

Yes if he’s a hard no and can’t be convinced I think it would be a waste of time and assets to force him to come here via trade. It’s not a “we’re in charge, we’re bringing you here and you can suck it up” situation where the team wins and Dame loses. There’s many ways a resentful player can wreck your dressing room. Most players are professional but if he really doesn’t want to be here (and I don’t know that for sure) then move on. He’s not worth that risk.

"If he can't be convinced"

Why do we need to convince him? Why are we begging?

We have the talent. We're well-run. Despite the reputation issues, Boston is still a big market and will get national attention. We're not a poverty franchise. We shouldn't have to act like it.

We shouldn't have to...but it does happen. AD was the latest example. Players get it in their heads where they want to go, for any number of reasons, which might not even be the reasons we as fans assume they have for switching, and given the immense investment in these top end guys, and the financial limitations it places on you, you kind of want them bought in. I feel that most players will be professional, like AD was when NOP couldn't trade him right away, or KD for the Nets, but a player could just as easily easily pull a Kyrie or a Harden and act disinterested to force you to trade them away again, or claim injury like Kawhi or Simmons did. Their version of quiet quitting, if you like. I know Dame has 4 years to go and doesn't have a lot of leverage, but I just think there's just too many risks with forcing someone who doesn't want to play for you, to try and play for you just because you acquire the legal right to do so especially if they're not bought in. They could easily bring in discord into the locker room. Especially since I don't think he would be transformational to our team anyway, an immediate upgrade sure but not transformational.

So if we don't want to beg or convince him...if he says he doesn't want to play for us, then take his word for it and look elsewhere  :police:
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