Jaylen Brown Supermax

[Muzzy66]

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

Oh as far as Jaylen's career goes I absolutely agree that its a good thing that he feels this way.  But as far as Celtics success goes it's a totally different story. 

For years I've been watching Tatum and Brown playing, and feeling like I'm constantly watching two guys trying to one up each other to prove they are the #1 guy rather then just working together as two parts of a greater team.  For a long time I've suspected that JB things he is the #1 guy and that he has been unwilling to accept the #2 role as a compliment to Tatum because he things he's "too good for that". This paragraph seems to just prove that point for me.

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

There is confidence and then there is someone who isn't in reality.  Tatum is the best player on the team.  The team plays better with Tatum.  If Brown can't fit in around Tatum, then he needs to go.  While the C's guys aren't as good as Lebron and Wade, Wade had the sense to realize that Lebron was better than he was and that the Heat would go as far as Lebron would take them, so Wade told Lebron it was his team, to stop deferring, and to take over.  I don't know if they win 2 titles together without Wade doing that.

Exactly my point.  You can never have two #1 guys on a team - it's a recipe for disaster.  The only example I think of in past years where teams have win championships with two players who both think they are #1 was the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq - they weren't so far as winning 3 titles together from memory.  But even that fell apart eventually, as both players insisted on being the Alpha and neither would accept being the #2, with the end result being a very public conflict that eventually ended in Shaq demanding a trade. 

So i'm not going to say you CAN'T win a title with two guys who both thing they are number 1...but it's definitely a major hinderance and if it doesn't result in desaster from day one it almost certinaly will at some point later down the road. 

In this league more often then not the teams that win are the teams where every play knows there roles, embraces thier role, and is willing to accept it.  It was the willingness of KG and Ray to sacrifice t be the #2 / #2 guys that allowed the Celtics to win in 2008. 

I understand the argument that if we trade Brown we won't get a player back who is on the same level as he is.  That may well be true, and probably is.  But getting a player back who is 85% or 90% of Jaylen Brown BUT is willing to accept and embrace that role as a #2 guy may well be better for the team's success. 

A big part of why I like the Porzingis pickup so much is because from the interviews it is clear that Porzingis knows his place on the team- he knows this team belongs to Tatum and Brown, and that he is the third banana.  And he's expressed his willingness to not only accept but embrace that role.  That's the type of attitude you need from the top 5-7 guys if you want to have a serious shot at a title.

To be entirely honest, i find this take almost incomprehensible. I really don't get it. The c's have had a staggering amount of success over the Tatum/Brown era, they had the 2nd bets offense in the league last year, they have been really good with Tatum/Brown. So saying "i worry about team performance because of this attitude" just strikes me as being disproved by the actual team performance over the last few years.

I don't think there's any evidence that Jaylen thinking he's good at basketball has had ANY negative impact on the Celtics, at all. Tatum had the 7th highest USG rate in the league last year, how much can Brown possibly be taking away from him?

The Celitcs have seen a solid amount of success over the year because of their sheer level of talent.  It's hard for a team with a roster as strong as the Celtics have had the past few years NOT to be successful. 

But it's also a very well known fact that this team has had major difficulties making the most of their talent and playing with any sort of consistency as a team.  This is hardly a secret - it's been well covered by just about every sports commentator out there that when it comes to this Celtics team, you just do not know what you're going to get from one day to the next.

For the first half of the season this was the most dominant team in basketball, bar none.  It looked like finally, they had things together.  Then second half they started to resort to their old ways - lots of ISO ball, lack of ball movement, lots of ugly losses against mediocre teams that they just shouldn't be losing to.

Then the playoffs come along.  They struggled to get by the FAR inferior Hawks team.  Then they needed major heroics from Tatum (to the tune of an all-time game 7 scoring record) to get a notoriously mentally weak Philly team.  Then they went down 3-0 to an 8th seed Miami heat that barely even made the playoffs. 

There's clearly something odd mentally with this team.  They seem to get cocky when they think they have an easy win and end up getting slaughtered by bad teams, then when they are up against a wall and its truly do-or-die Tatum tends to step up and have monstrous performances that drag the team through. 

When these guys go out and play the right way, they look like they can beat any team in the league by 30.  But then they after they do that a couple of times they seem to get cocky and then revert back to ISO ball and start looking like a barely-playoff-worthy team again. 

This was really at its worst last season.  The previous year I didn't really have an issue with the Celtics - they were impacted by a bunch of injuries, Tatum didn't have a great shooting series, they lost in the finals in 6 games.  I'm ok with that because they played consistently hard.   This season they had bench depth, they were relatively healthy, they had the best roster in the NBA, and yet they were all over the place in the playoffs. 

Maybe coching has some to do with that, but I also don't see any indication of good chemistry between Tatum and Brown. They seem to have very different personalities, very different approaches to political activism, I don't really ever see them talking or joking about in all the years they have been together.  I've just had a constant vibe that the two of them just don't like each other and don't really get along, but they deal with it because they kinda have to.  Brown always looks and sounds like he's got a chip on his shoulder and seems somewhat envious of the fact that Tatum has been elevated above him on the team and in the league (despite Brown being a year older and being with the Celtics longer).  Brown is also constantly making comments complaining about Celtics fans, about people being ungrateful, etc. 

I may well be reading too much into things and may be wrong on all of this, but to me personally I've been getting a vibe for a few years now (ever since Tatum beat JB to that first All-Star appearance) that JB is kinda ticked off with the fact that he's constantly in Tatum's shadow.  Brown has been in the league longer and has been a Celtic longer.  He's putting up spectacular numbers in his own right and has worked hard to make major improvements to his game every year, but somehow no matter what he does Tatum always managed to take his game one step further, and Brown still ends up stuck in his shadow.  Then on top of that there's the whole thing with people trying to break the duo up (and its always Brown's name that is the one getting mentioned in the trade ideas). 

I can only imagine that Brown is probably far less then 100% happy in Boston and he probably wants nothing more than to go to another team so he can finally step out of Tatum's shadow, be the #1 guy on his own team, and get some of the spotlight/recognition that he feels (quite fairly and reasonably) probably feels he deserves. 

And I can't even blame him if he DOES feel this way, because I can only imagine if I were in his shoes I would feel the same way, and many others probably would too.  I don't think there is any doubt that JB is good enough to be the #1 guy on a solid playoff team and that he probably deserves the opportunity to shot that he can be that guy.  And I really think it's just a matter of time before he comes out and demands it...

Maybe i'm wrong.  I hope I am.  We will see I guess.   

[Muzzy66]

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

Oh as far as Jaylen's career goes I absolutely agree that its a good thing that he feels this way.  But as far as Celtics success goes it's a totally different story. 

For years I've been watching Tatum and Brown playing, and feeling like I'm constantly watching two guys trying to one up each other to prove they are the #1 guy rather then just working together as two parts of a greater team.  For a long time I've suspected that JB things he is the #1 guy and that he has been unwilling to accept the #2 role as a compliment to Tatum because he things he's "too good for that". This paragraph seems to just prove that point for me.

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

There is confidence and then there is someone who isn't in reality.  Tatum is the best player on the team.  The team plays better with Tatum.  If Brown can't fit in around Tatum, then he needs to go.  While the C's guys aren't as good as Lebron and Wade, Wade had the sense to realize that Lebron was better than he was and that the Heat would go as far as Lebron would take them, so Wade told Lebron it was his team, to stop deferring, and to take over.  I don't know if they win 2 titles together without Wade doing that.

Exactly my point.  You can never have two #1 guys on a team - it's a recipe for disaster.  The only example I think of in past years where teams have win championships with two players who both think they are #1 was the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq - they weren't so far as winning 3 titles together from memory.  But even that fell apart eventually, as both players insisted on being the Alpha and neither would accept being the #2, with the end result being a very public conflict that eventually ended in Shaq demanding a trade. 

So i'm not going to say you CAN'T win a title with two guys who both thing they are number 1...but it's definitely a major hinderance and if it doesn't result in desaster from day one it almost certinaly will at some point later down the road. 

In this league more often then not the teams that win are the teams where every play knows there roles, embraces thier role, and is willing to accept it.  It was the willingness of KG and Ray to sacrifice t be the #2 / #2 guys that allowed the Celtics to win in 2008. 

I understand the argument that if we trade Brown we won't get a player back who is on the same level as he is.  That may well be true, and probably is.  But getting a player back who is 85% or 90% of Jaylen Brown BUT is willing to accept and embrace that role as a #2 guy may well be better for the team's success. 

A big part of why I like the Porzingis pickup so much is because from the interviews it is clear that Porzingis knows his place on the team- he knows this team belongs to Tatum and Brown, and that he is the third banana.  And he's expressed his willingness to not only accept but embrace that role.  That's the type of attitude you need from the top 5-7 guys if you want to have a serious shot at a title.

To be entirely honest, i find this take almost incomprehensible. Like I really don't get it. The c's have had a staggering amount of success over the Tatum/Brown era, they had the 2nd bets offense in the league last year, they have been really good with Tatum/Brown. So saying "i worry about team performance because of this attitude" just strikes me as being disproved by the actual team performance over the last few years.

Exactly. We've been in the Conference Finals practically every year because we have these two guys.

I never said that they aren't great players - they are without question one of the most (probably the most) talented <30 duo in the NBA.  I also never said that they haven't been (or wont be) successful. 

My question mark is about whether they will ever be good enough together to take things to the next level and actually win a title.  Getting to the conference finals is tough, but once you get to that point you are down to the 4 best teams in the league, and you are starting to get to the point where you cannot just rely on being more talented than the other team - to win at that level you need to have great chemistry, you all need to know/embrace your roles, and you need to play great as a collective team.  These is (IMO) what this Celtics team needs to develop in order to take things to the next level and actually win a title, and as long as Tatum/Brown are both on the team battling for "who is #1" I just don't know if they'll be able to cross that line. 

[tenn_smoothie]

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

Oh as far as Jaylen's career goes I absolutely agree that its a good thing that he feels this way.  But as far as Celtics success goes it's a totally different story. 

For years I've been watching Tatum and Brown playing, and feeling like I'm constantly watching two guys trying to one up each other to prove they are the #1 guy rather then just working together as two parts of a greater team.  For a long time I've suspected that JB things he is the #1 guy and that he has been unwilling to accept the #2 role as a compliment to Tatum because he things he's "too good for that". This paragraph seems to just prove that point for me.

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

There is confidence and then there is someone who isn't in reality.  Tatum is the best player on the team.  The team plays better with Tatum.  If Brown can't fit in around Tatum, then he needs to go.  While the C's guys aren't as good as Lebron and Wade, Wade had the sense to realize that Lebron was better than he was and that the Heat would go as far as Lebron would take them, so Wade told Lebron it was his team, to stop deferring, and to take over.  I don't know if they win 2 titles together without Wade doing that.

Exactly my point.  You can never have two #1 guys on a team - it's a recipe for disaster.  The only example I think of in past years where teams have win championships with two players who both think they are #1 was the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq - they weren't so far as winning 3 titles together from memory.  But even that fell apart eventually, as both players insisted on being the Alpha and neither would accept being the #2, with the end result being a very public conflict that eventually ended in Shaq demanding a trade. 

So i'm not going to say you CAN'T win a title with two guys who both thing they are number 1...but it's definitely a major hinderance and if it doesn't result in desaster from day one it almost certinaly will at some point later down the road. 

In this league more often then not the teams that win are the teams where every play knows there roles, embraces thier role, and is willing to accept it.  It was the willingness of KG and Ray to sacrifice t be the #2 / #2 guys that allowed the Celtics to win in 2008. 

I understand the argument that if we trade Brown we won't get a player back who is on the same level as he is.  That may well be true, and probably is.  But getting a player back who is 85% or 90% of Jaylen Brown BUT is willing to accept and embrace that role as a #2 guy may well be better for the team's success. 

A big part of why I like the Porzingis pickup so much is because from the interviews it is clear that Porzingis knows his place on the team- he knows this team belongs to Tatum and Brown, and that he is the third banana.  And he's expressed his willingness to not only accept but embrace that role.  That's the type of attitude you need from the top 5-7 guys if you want to have a serious shot at a title.

To be entirely honest, i find this take almost incomprehensible. I really don't get it. The c's have had a staggering amount of success over the Tatum/Brown era, they had the 2nd bets offense in the league last year, they have been really good with Tatum/Brown. So saying "i worry about team performance because of this attitude" just strikes me as being disproved by the actual team performance over the last few years.

I don't think there's any evidence that Jaylen thinking he's good at basketball has had ANY negative impact on the Celtics, at all. Tatum had the 7th highest USG rate in the league last year, how much can Brown possibly be taking away from him?

This take is completely comprehensible.
Our two best players do not compliment each other, but instead are redundant and get in each other's way.
What you call a "staggering amount of success" I would call chronic underachievement.
Trading Jaylen Brown for more complimentary parts would do wonders for this team.
That and a competent head coach.

[tenn_smoothie]

If I'm Brad Stevens and Ownership and I am actually serious about hanging multiple banners with this group, I am hiring a new head coach and trading Jaylen Brown for Pascal Siakam tomorrow morning. That team would be a serious contender.

[Muzzy66]

If I'm Brad Stevens and Ownership and I am actually serious about hanging multiple banners with this group, I am hiring a new head coach and trading Jaylen Brown for Pascal Siakam tomorrow morning. That team would be a serious contender.

I'm not the worlds biggest Siakam fan to be honest - he just seems to fall apart too often in big moments an I don't see him as a reliable #2 option.  I'm also not sure how we would find playing time for all four of Siakam, Porzingis, Wiliams and Horford. 

That being said, it might make us a better team overall and would certainly make the Porzingis/Timelord health concerns much less critical. 

[tenn_smoothie]

Say a little more about Siakam's deficiencies in big moments. I seem to remember him playing well vs the Celtics, but I don't always remember our opponents performances, whether they are playing us or another team in the playoffs. Has Siakam fallen flat in some big games ? We seem to have that ability already with our current players. I maintain that Jayson and Jaylen, while both very good players, become less the sum of their combined talents playing together. I believe this team needs a dynamic player in the post to go further in the playoffs.

[Muzzy66]

Say a little more about Siakam's deficiencies in big moments. I seem to remember him playing well vs the Celtics, but I don't always remember our opponents performances, whether they are playing us or another team in the playoffs. Has Siakam fallen flat in some big games ? We seem to have that ability already with our current players. I maintain that Jayson and Jaylen, while both very good players, become less the sum of their combined talents playing together. I believe this team needs a dynamic player in the post to go further in the playoffs.

I just remember that after Kawhi left Toronto following their championship, everybody was talking about Siakam being ready to take his place as their top dog.  But then when the playoffs came along, and he really stunk the place up. 

In 2019/20 Siakam averaged 23 pts /7 reb /4 as / 1.0 stl /0.9 blk on 45%/36%/79% shooting in the regular season, but come playoffs he only averaged 17 pts, 7 reb, 2.8 ast, 1 stl, 0.7 blocks on a woeful 39% / 19% / 71% shooting over 24 playoff games. 

To make matters worse he also failed to lead the Raptors to the playoffs at all in two of the next three years after that (2020/21 or in 2022/23).

He did perform well in the 2021/22 playoffs though, averaging 23 points, 7 boards and 6 assists on 48%/23%/86% shooting.  But one good playoff year out of 3 doesn't leave me exuding confidene. 

As for talent, he's not particuarly great as a rebounding (career 7.7 per 36), shotblocker (career 0.8 per 36) or three point shooting (career 32%, and only shot above 35% twice in 7 years). 

On the plus side he has excellent numbers in the paint, very good numbers from midrange, and a seems to draw fouls at a solid rate.  And he's an excellent (and very versatile) defensive player.  I also recall him being a pretty tough, scrappy, physical, high motor guy (quite Marcus Smart like) so if memory serves me correctly he would give the team some much needed "spunk".

My question is how he fits though. 

I'm not sure he's a talented enough pure scorer to replace JB as a guy who can routinely carry the team when Tatum is hurt/struggling the way Brown can.  I feel he and Porzingis are both more like 3rd option guys.  That being said, now that we have Porzingis, Brogdon, White, Horford we do have quite a lot of scoring available, so maybe we don't need two elite scorers - maybe one elite scorer and two excellent ones is enough. 

My bigger question comes to how he fits in the roster and replaces Brown in our starting 5?  Do we start both Brogdon and White, along with Tatum, Siakam, Porzingis? Cos that would kill our depth, especially at the PG/SG spots. Or do we try to go huge with Tatum at the SG spot and Siakam at the SF spot, giving us a starting 5 of White/Tatum/Siakam/Williams/Porzingis?  That would be a monstrous starting 5 and would be unbelievable defensively, but not sure if Siakam has the ball handling skills to play the three (Tatum is probably fine at SG).  Not too sure, it's a bit of a weird fit unless we also move Horford or Williams to bring in another guard.

Maybe there are others who have watched Siakam more and could provide better insight then me.  I've watched him a little bit, but not a ton.

[Kernewek]

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

Oh as far as Jaylen's career goes I absolutely agree that its a good thing that he feels this way.  But as far as Celtics success goes it's a totally different story. 

For years I've been watching Tatum and Brown playing, and feeling like I'm constantly watching two guys trying to one up each other to prove they are the #1 guy rather then just working together as two parts of a greater team.  For a long time I've suspected that JB things he is the #1 guy and that he has been unwilling to accept the #2 role as a compliment to Tatum because he things he's "too good for that". This paragraph seems to just prove that point for me.

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

There is confidence and then there is someone who isn't in reality.  Tatum is the best player on the team.  The team plays better with Tatum.  If Brown can't fit in around Tatum, then he needs to go.  While the C's guys aren't as good as Lebron and Wade, Wade had the sense to realize that Lebron was better than he was and that the Heat would go as far as Lebron would take them, so Wade told Lebron it was his team, to stop deferring, and to take over.  I don't know if they win 2 titles together without Wade doing that.

Exactly my point.  You can never have two #1 guys on a team - it's a recipe for disaster.  The only example I think of in past years where teams have win championships with two players who both think they are #1 was the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq - they weren't so far as winning 3 titles together from memory.  But even that fell apart eventually, as both players insisted on being the Alpha and neither would accept being the #2, with the end result being a very public conflict that eventually ended in Shaq demanding a trade. 

So i'm not going to say you CAN'T win a title with two guys who both thing they are number 1...but it's definitely a major hinderance and if it doesn't result in desaster from day one it almost certinaly will at some point later down the road. 

In this league more often then not the teams that win are the teams where every play knows there roles, embraces thier role, and is willing to accept it.  It was the willingness of KG and Ray to sacrifice t be the #2 / #2 guys that allowed the Celtics to win in 2008. 

I understand the argument that if we trade Brown we won't get a player back who is on the same level as he is.  That may well be true, and probably is.  But getting a player back who is 85% or 90% of Jaylen Brown BUT is willing to accept and embrace that role as a #2 guy may well be better for the team's success. 

A big part of why I like the Porzingis pickup so much is because from the interviews it is clear that Porzingis knows his place on the team- he knows this team belongs to Tatum and Brown, and that he is the third banana.  And he's expressed his willingness to not only accept but embrace that role.  That's the type of attitude you need from the top 5-7 guys if you want to have a serious shot at a title.

To be entirely honest, i find this take almost incomprehensible. I really don't get it. The c's have had a staggering amount of success over the Tatum/Brown era, they had the 2nd bets offense in the league last year, they have been really good with Tatum/Brown. So saying "i worry about team performance because of this attitude" just strikes me as being disproved by the actual team performance over the last few years.

I don't think there's any evidence that Jaylen thinking he's good at basketball has had ANY negative impact on the Celtics, at all. Tatum had the 7th highest USG rate in the league last year, how much can Brown possibly be taking away from him?

This take is completely comprehensible.
Our two best players do not compliment each other, but instead are redundant and get in each other's way.
What you call a "staggering amount of success" I would call chronic underachievement.
Trading Jaylen Brown for more complimentary parts would do wonders for this team.
That and a competent head coach.

I guess it depends on whether or not those expectations are outsized relative to the reality of most NBA teams.

I don't have a strong feeling on Brown beyond the fact that I don't think we can get equivalent talent for him in a trade, but the only team to have a better run over the Celtics tenure with the Jays is arguably Golden State?

[ozgod]

Ummm, why is this still lingering? There is no longer the excuse of seeing how the Grant Williams free agency played out.

My thought is we are not offering the full supermax of 35% but somewhere over 30 but under 35 percent most likely. He really doesn't have much leverage as well because if he does not sign that, we trade him and he will get much less as the supermax will not follow him in the trade(I believe that is the case).

Only one player on this team should get the full supermax and his name is not Brown.

That would be a pretty hard ball approach.  I could see the Celtics taking the position if they have a favorable trade already worked out or an understanding for a trade; such as Lillard.  Then the Celtics could say if Brown won't take a discount, the Celtics would prefer to trade him to Portland.  They don't really want to trade him, but they can't build a winning team if both Brown and Tatum go supermax.

This is possible of course, but I feel highly unlikley.

According to Himmelsbach's sources it's also unlikely. They're not going to do a "we're going to short change you Jaylen, take it or we ship you out" approach. Due to him being an expiring, Jaylen's trade market right now won't be as robust as people think. Any rebuilding team that has comparable players to send back in return, such as Portland, would have to think twice because they could give up a big asset for a one year rental who could move to a more competitive team in 2024. There's plenty of teams that will have cap space in 2024 that are on the up, like Sacramento, San Antonio, Utah...not to mention old friend Ime Udoka and Houston. And given the time of the offseason, I'm sure Brad won't want to be scrambling around to find a trade partner when a lot of trades have already happened, especially when all those teams are going to know that he's negotiating from a position of weakness.

The holdup is likely around the incentives...whether he gets a 5th year option, a trade kicker, or bonuses for making All-NBA/All-Star teams again.

By all indications, the Celtics are offering Brown the full five-year max, but there are various incentives that are likely under discussion. This past season, for example, Brown earned an extra $2 million for playing in 65 games and appearing in the All-Star Game.

There could be some discussion over incentives included in this extension that are unlikely to be obtained, such as a bonus for being named league MVP.

But according to one former NBA general manager, it’s unlikely that the sides are haggling over those details at this point. The former executive suggested the hold-up is most likely over a fifth-year player option and/or a potential no-trade clause.

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Players need eight years of service to be eligible for a no-trade clause, and Brown has completed only seven, so that is not an option. But Brown’s camp could negotiate a trade kicker worth up to 15 percent of his salary. A kicker is essentially a bonus paid to the player by his current team if he is traded.

In 2020, Celtics superstar Jayson Tatum received a fifth-year player option in his five-year, $195 million max extension. That option will allow Tatum to decline the fifth year of his deal next summer and become eligible for a more lucrative five-year extension after that. Or, he could simply opt out and become a free agent one year earlier, if he pleases.

Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum received.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/07/10/sports/with-no-contract-extension-yet-this-appears-be-an-important-week-jaylen-brown-celtics/

[Who]

Say a little more about Siakam's deficiencies in big moments. I seem to remember him playing well vs the Celtics, but I don't always remember our opponents performances, whether they are playing us or another team in the playoffs. Has Siakam fallen flat in some big games ? We seem to have that ability already with our current players. I maintain that Jayson and Jaylen, while both very good players, become less the sum of their combined talents playing together. I believe this team needs a dynamic player in the post to go further in the playoffs.

I just remember that after Kawhi left Toronto following their championship, everybody was talking about Siakam being ready to take his place as their top dog.  But then when the playoffs came along, and he really stunk the place up. 

In 2019/20 Siakam averaged 23 pts /7 reb /4 as / 1.0 stl /0.9 blk on 45%/36%/79% shooting in the regular season, but come playoffs he only averaged 17 pts, 7 reb, 2.8 ast, 1 stl, 0.7 blocks on a woeful 39% / 19% / 71% shooting over 24 playoff games. 

To make matters worse he also failed to lead the Raptors to the playoffs at all in two of the next three years after that (2020/21 or in 2022/23).

He did perform well in the 2021/22 playoffs though, averaging 23 points, 7 boards and 6 assists on 48%/23%/86% shooting.  But one good playoff year out of 3 doesn't leave me exuding confidene. 

As for talent, he's not particuarly great as a rebounding (career 7.7 per 36), shotblocker (career 0.8 per 36) or three point shooting (career 32%, and only shot above 35% twice in 7 years). 

On the plus side he has excellent numbers in the paint, very good numbers from midrange, and a seems to draw fouls at a solid rate.  And he's an excellent (and very versatile) defensive player.  I also recall him being a pretty tough, scrappy, physical, high motor guy (quite Marcus Smart like) so if memory serves me correctly he would give the team some much needed "spunk".

My question is how he fits though. 

I'm not sure he's a talented enough pure scorer to replace JB as a guy who can routinely carry the team when Tatum is hurt/struggling the way Brown can.  I feel he and Porzingis are both more like 3rd option guys.  That being said, now that we have Porzingis, Brogdon, White, Horford we do have quite a lot of scoring available, so maybe we don't need two elite scorers - maybe one elite scorer and two excellent ones is enough. 

My bigger question comes to how he fits in the roster and replaces Brown in our starting 5?  Do we start both Brogdon and White, along with Tatum, Siakam, Porzingis? Cos that would kill our depth, especially at the PG/SG spots. Or do we try to go huge with Tatum at the SG spot and Siakam at the SF spot, giving us a starting 5 of White/Tatum/Siakam/Williams/Porzingis?  That would be a monstrous starting 5 and would be unbelievable defensively, but not sure if Siakam has the ball handling skills to play the three (Tatum is probably fine at SG).  Not too sure, it's a bit of a weird fit unless we also move Horford or Williams to bring in another guard.

Maybe there are others who have watched Siakam more and could provide better insight then me.  I've watched him a little bit, but not a ton.

More like a good defender than an excellent one. Similar to Jaylen. He has the tools to do it. He shows flashes. But he is undiscipled as an off ball defender, gets lost, and hurts his value.

Jaylen is actually a great comp for Siakam on defense in terms of overall defensive value and talent and strengths / weanesses.

[Who]

My bigger question comes to how he fits in the roster and replaces Brown in our starting 5?  Do we start both Brogdon and White, along with Tatum, Siakam, Porzingis? Cos that would kill our depth, especially at the PG/SG spots. Or do we try to go huge with Tatum at the SG spot and Siakam at the SF spot, giving us a starting 5 of White/Tatum/Siakam/Williams/Porzingis?  That would be a monstrous starting 5 and would be unbelievable defensively, but not sure if Siakam has the ball handling skills to play the three (Tatum is probably fine at SG).  Not too sure, it's a bit of a weird fit unless we also move Horford or Williams to bring in another guard.

G: Brogdon, Pritchard
G: D White, Hauser
F: Tatum, Brissett
F: Siakam, Horford
C: Porzingis, Rob Williams

I believe that would be our best team. There is some overkill at the big spots and lack of bench talent on the perimeter. A trade of one of our backup bigs (Horford or Timelord) for a guard looks the best way to rebalance the team post-trade.

I'd like to see us bring in a legit two guard and move Brogdon back to the bench. One option may be to enlarge the trade and have Toronto send us Gary Trent Jr back with Horford or Timelord being sent to Toronto to be their new backup C.

G: D White, Brogdon, Pritchard
G: G Trent Jr, Hauser
F: Tatum, Brissett
F: Siakam, Horford
C: Porzingis, Rob Williams

Trent would give us a legit shooter. A prolific three point shooter. Someone who can shoot off of movement, off the dribble, and off the catch. Someone you can't leave open to double up on Tatum, Siakam, Porzingis. Brogdon gets to move back into that 6th man role and stabilize the bench. You still have one of Horford / Timelord so you maintain that strong 7 man rotation.


Now the question is, is either of those two scenarios better than our current lineup?

G: D White, Brogdon
G: Jaylen, Pritchard
F: Tatum, Hauser
F: Horford, Brissett
C: Porzingis, Rob Williams

Our current team is much bigger and more intimidating to play against. The physical size of our big men, wings and guards are a load for opponents to deal with.

The Siakam options are smaller but far quicker and more mobile. They are more offensive orientated. They have better spacing. More player movement. Better ball security. Better passing. A more adept offensive group.

I am not sure it is any better though. It feels "different" more than "better". Sideways movement.


Second question is does Siakam see himself anymore as a #2 to Tatum than Jaylen Brown does. Siakam is not the same player that played next to Kawhi all those years ago. He has built up a big ego himself. He gets accused of selfishness by Raptors fans often correctly so. He shoots more than he should. Even on Toronto, he should have a smaller offensive role than he does but he refuses to step back at all and give space to others. He cares a lot about individual accolades such as All-Star nods and All-NBA selections.

Is he really that different than Jaylen? If the goal is a switch in mentality, does Siakam offer that switch?

[Celtics2021]

Ummm, why is this still lingering? There is no longer the excuse of seeing how the Grant Williams free agency played out.

My thought is we are not offering the full supermax of 35% but somewhere over 30 but under 35 percent most likely. He really doesn't have much leverage as well because if he does not sign that, we trade him and he will get much less as the supermax will not follow him in the trade(I believe that is the case).

Only one player on this team should get the full supermax and his name is not Brown.

That would be a pretty hard ball approach.  I could see the Celtics taking the position if they have a favorable trade already worked out or an understanding for a trade; such as Lillard.  Then the Celtics could say if Brown won't take a discount, the Celtics would prefer to trade him to Portland.  They don't really want to trade him, but they can't build a winning team if both Brown and Tatum go supermax.

This is possible of course, but I feel highly unlikley.

According to Himmelsbach's sources it's also unlikely. They're not going to do a "we're going to short change you Jaylen, take it or we ship you out" approach. Due to him being an expiring, Jaylen's trade market right now won't be as robust as people think. Any rebuilding team that has comparable players to send back in return, such as Portland, would have to think twice because they could give up a big asset for a one year rental who could move to a more competitive team in 2024. There's plenty of teams that will have cap space in 2024 that are on the up, like Sacramento, San Antonio, Utah...not to mention old friend Ime Udoka and Houston. And given the time of the offseason, I'm sure Brad won't want to be scrambling around to find a trade partner when a lot of trades have already happened, especially when all those teams are going to know that he's negotiating from a position of weakness.

The holdup is likely around the incentives...whether he gets a 5th year option, a trade kicker, or bonuses for making All-NBA/All-Star teams again.

By all indications, the Celtics are offering Brown the full five-year max, but there are various incentives that are likely under discussion. This past season, for example, Brown earned an extra $2 million for playing in 65 games and appearing in the All-Star Game.

There could be some discussion over incentives included in this extension that are unlikely to be obtained, such as a bonus for being named league MVP.

But according to one former NBA general manager, it’s unlikely that the sides are haggling over those details at this point. The former executive suggested the hold-up is most likely over a fifth-year player option and/or a potential no-trade clause.

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Players need eight years of service to be eligible for a no-trade clause, and Brown has completed only seven, so that is not an option. But Brown’s camp could negotiate a trade kicker worth up to 15 percent of his salary. A kicker is essentially a bonus paid to the player by his current team if he is traded.

In 2020, Celtics superstar Jayson Tatum received a fifth-year player option in his five-year, $195 million max extension. That option will allow Tatum to decline the fifth year of his deal next summer and become eligible for a more lucrative five-year extension after that. Or, he could simply opt out and become a free agent one year earlier, if he pleases.

Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum received.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/07/10/sports/with-no-contract-extension-yet-this-appears-be-an-important-week-jaylen-brown-celtics/

The Celtics should absolutely give him the trade kicker in exchange for the option.  If he's traded by June 30th, 2025, the kicker won't actually take effect, because it would bump him above his max salary.  Odds are after two seasons of the JB-JT-KP combo they'll have decided if they want to move in a different direction, especially since the 2025-2026 would be the first year of the repeater tax kicking in and potentially the second year of being above the second apron.

[keevsnick]

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

Oh as far as Jaylen's career goes I absolutely agree that its a good thing that he feels this way.  But as far as Celtics success goes it's a totally different story. 

For years I've been watching Tatum and Brown playing, and feeling like I'm constantly watching two guys trying to one up each other to prove they are the #1 guy rather then just working together as two parts of a greater team.  For a long time I've suspected that JB things he is the #1 guy and that he has been unwilling to accept the #2 role as a compliment to Tatum because he things he's "too good for that". This paragraph seems to just prove that point for me.

Per the Boston Globe:

Jaylen Brown has made it clear over the years that he views himself as Jayson Tatum’s equal rather than his sidekick, and it would be understandable for his camp to push for the player option that Tatum.

This pretty much just confirms my greatest fear with Brown - that he considers himself to be Tatum's equal.  This basically sets in stone for me the idea that these two guys will inevitably go down the Kobe/Shaq road where neither will ever be willing to accept that they are the #2 guy, and as long as they are on the same team they'll continue the nightly attempts to try to outplay/outshoot each other and will continue butting heads until they eventually reach the point where the relationship implodes and one of them demands a trade.

I don't like this at all. 

For the last couple of years talent has not been the problem for the Celtics, it's been mentality/attitude.  For a team to win a Championship everybody must know their role and embrace their role.  I honestly believe that as long as we have Tatum and Brown both on this roster earning max money believe they are each the best player on the team, this team will continue to struggle with chemistry issues and struggle to win a title. 

To me if I'm Brad, this mentality puts me instantly into "Trade Brown" mode.  Though of course I wouldn't want to make this obvious (in order to not drive his trade value down), but I would be have a very open ear to any teams out there who are looking to trade major pieces (including Lillard) and I would be going into contract negotiations based on the expectation that Brown will end up getting traded at some point in the next year or so.

I love this. An all-nba guy SHOULD have supreme confidence, he should be driven to be the best.

There is confidence and then there is someone who isn't in reality.  Tatum is the best player on the team.  The team plays better with Tatum.  If Brown can't fit in around Tatum, then he needs to go.  While the C's guys aren't as good as Lebron and Wade, Wade had the sense to realize that Lebron was better than he was and that the Heat would go as far as Lebron would take them, so Wade told Lebron it was his team, to stop deferring, and to take over.  I don't know if they win 2 titles together without Wade doing that.

Exactly my point.  You can never have two #1 guys on a team - it's a recipe for disaster.  The only example I think of in past years where teams have win championships with two players who both think they are #1 was the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq - they weren't so far as winning 3 titles together from memory.  But even that fell apart eventually, as both players insisted on being the Alpha and neither would accept being the #2, with the end result being a very public conflict that eventually ended in Shaq demanding a trade. 

So i'm not going to say you CAN'T win a title with two guys who both thing they are number 1...but it's definitely a major hinderance and if it doesn't result in desaster from day one it almost certinaly will at some point later down the road. 

In this league more often then not the teams that win are the teams where every play knows there roles, embraces thier role, and is willing to accept it.  It was the willingness of KG and Ray to sacrifice t be the #2 / #2 guys that allowed the Celtics to win in 2008. 

I understand the argument that if we trade Brown we won't get a player back who is on the same level as he is.  That may well be true, and probably is.  But getting a player back who is 85% or 90% of Jaylen Brown BUT is willing to accept and embrace that role as a #2 guy may well be better for the team's success. 

A big part of why I like the Porzingis pickup so much is because from the interviews it is clear that Porzingis knows his place on the team- he knows this team belongs to Tatum and Brown, and that he is the third banana.  And he's expressed his willingness to not only accept but embrace that role.  That's the type of attitude you need from the top 5-7 guys if you want to have a serious shot at a title.

To be entirely honest, i find this take almost incomprehensible. I really don't get it. The c's have had a staggering amount of success over the Tatum/Brown era, they had the 2nd bets offense in the league last year, they have been really good with Tatum/Brown. So saying "i worry about team performance because of this attitude" just strikes me as being disproved by the actual team performance over the last few years.

I don't think there's any evidence that Jaylen thinking he's good at basketball has had ANY negative impact on the Celtics, at all. Tatum had the 7th highest USG rate in the league last year, how much can Brown possibly be taking away from him?

The Celitcs have seen a solid amount of success over the year because of their sheer level of talent.  It's hard for a team with a roster as strong as the Celtics have had the past few years NOT to be successful. 

But it's also a very well known fact that this team has had major difficulties making the most of their talent and playing with any sort of consistency as a team.  This is hardly a secret - it's been well covered by just about every sports commentator out there that when it comes to this Celtics team, you just do not know what you're going to get from one day to the next.

For the first half of the season this was the most dominant team in basketball, bar none.  It looked like finally, they had things together.  Then second half they started to resort to their old ways - lots of ISO ball, lack of ball movement, lots of ugly losses against mediocre teams that they just shouldn't be losing to.

Then the playoffs come along.  They struggled to get by the FAR inferior Hawks team.  Then they needed major heroics from Tatum (to the tune of an all-time game 7 scoring record) to get a notoriously mentally weak Philly team.  Then they went down 3-0 to an 8th seed Miami heat that barely even made the playoffs. 

There's clearly something odd mentally with this team.  They seem to get cocky when they think they have an easy win and end up getting slaughtered by bad teams, then when they are up against a wall and its truly do-or-die Tatum tends to step up and have monstrous performances that drag the team through. 

When these guys go out and play the right way, they look like they can beat any team in the league by 30.  But then they after they do that a couple of times they seem to get cocky and then revert back to ISO ball and start looking like a barely-playoff-worthy team again. 

This was really at its worst last season.  The previous year I didn't really have an issue with the Celtics - they were impacted by a bunch of injuries, Tatum didn't have a great shooting series, they lost in the finals in 6 games.  I'm ok with that because they played consistently hard.   This season they had bench depth, they were relatively healthy, they had the best roster in the NBA, and yet they were all over the place in the playoffs. 

Maybe coching has some to do with that, but I also don't see any indication of good chemistry between Tatum and Brown. They seem to have very different personalities, very different approaches to political activism, I don't really ever see them talking or joking about in all the years they have been together.  I've just had a constant vibe that the two of them just don't like each other and don't really get along, but they deal with it because they kinda have to.  Brown always looks and sounds like he's got a chip on his shoulder and seems somewhat envious of the fact that Tatum has been elevated above him on the team and in the league (despite Brown being a year older and being with the Celtics longer).  Brown is also constantly making comments complaining about Celtics fans, about people being ungrateful, etc. 

I may well be reading too much into things and may be wrong on all of this, but to me personally I've been getting a vibe for a few years now (ever since Tatum beat JB to that first All-Star appearance) that JB is kinda ticked off with the fact that he's constantly in Tatum's shadow.  Brown has been in the league longer and has been a Celtic longer.  He's putting up spectacular numbers in his own right and has worked hard to make major improvements to his game every year, but somehow no matter what he does Tatum always managed to take his game one step further, and Brown still ends up stuck in his shadow.  Then on top of that there's the whole thing with people trying to break the duo up (and its always Brown's name that is the one getting mentioned in the trade ideas). 

I can only imagine that Brown is probably far less then 100% happy in Boston and he probably wants nothing more than to go to another team so he can finally step out of Tatum's shadow, be the #1 guy on his own team, and get some of the spotlight/recognition that he feels (quite fairly and reasonably) probably feels he deserves. 

See I VERY strongly disagree with the idea that they underachieved in any way. They've made 4 ECF with those guys, one NBA finals. All they haven't done is win one, but in the history of the NBA you typically don't win one unless you have a guy playing at a clear MVP level. The Nuggets had Jokic, The Bucks had Giannis, The Lakers had Lebron and AD playing and shooting out of his mind, Raptors had Kawhi, GSW had Durant/Curry. That's what it takes to win.

Tatum has been great, but he'd never quite had a run like that, and until he does i don't think you can say they've underachieved relative to their talent. The stuff about "well, they struggled at times against teams they are better than" is nonsense to me. Like, who cares? They WON THOSE SERIES. Its just sort of crazy to me to watch a team win as much as this team does, with those two guys, in the PRE-PRIME years and complain that somehow they don't win well enough. Like sure they win, but they need to win better somehow? Bottom line if they want to win it all either Tatum needs to take a step to true MVP  level, OR Brown needs to take a leep to top 10-15 level AND they need some shooting luck (and even then, Tatum playing like and MVP is the clearer path).

Like ya, they lost to the Heat. That was maybe the first loss of the Tatum/Brown led era that felt disappointing, like they were clearly better. But.......the Heat also Beat the #1 seeded Bucks, and they shot like 45% from three. So I don't know, weird stuff happens.

The idea that there's something off here also confuses me. This team has won multiple road game 6's to force game 7's, they've won road game 7's wire to wire, they've had comebacks. Sure, they blow leads, its a problem, but the idea that they are mentally weak or hate each other is crazy to me. Teams that hate each other don't come back from 3-0 to force a game 7, they give up and go home in game 4.

To me, stuff that people conflate with ego/chemistry issues are mostly just basketball execution issues to often.

I guess if I had to summarize my issue with your line of thinking its this: Winning a title is VERY HARD. The Celtics have won 1 in the last 37 years. Not winning in any given year is not an indictment of a team or players attitude, confidence, mental toughness, ego or any of the other quantifiable stuff Felger and Mazz like to rip the C's for on the radio. Sometimes you just aren't good enough, or get unlucky, and that can happen when your stars are in their early twenties. They've had a four year window here where they've actually had a shot, they've been really good, and Tatum and Brown are just now entering their primes. 

I say: Let it play out. Its possible they never win it, but not winning is literally the most likely outcome every year for every team. I know they are good, I've seen it, so keep building it up around them, try different things, and run with it as long as those two guys want to. Worst case scenario we get fun, deep playoff runs every year.

[Vermont Green]

See I VERY strongly disagree with the idea that they underachieved in any way. They've made 4 ECF with those guys, one NBA finals. All they haven't done is win one, but in the history of the NBA you typically don't win one unless you have a guy playing at a clear MVP level. The Nuggets had Jokic, The Bucks had Giannis, The Lakers had Lebron and AD playing and shooting out of his mind, Raptors had Kawhi, GSW had Durant/Curry. That's what it takes to win.

Tatum has been great, but he'd never quite had a run like that, and until he does i don't think you can say they've underachieved relative to their talent. The stuff about "well, they struggled at times against teams they are better than" is nonsense to me. Like, who cares? They WON THOSE SERIES. Its just sort of crazy to me to watch a team win as much as this team does, with those two guys, in the PRE-PRIME years and complain that somehow they don't win well enough. Like sure they win, but they need to win better somehow? Bottom line if they want to win it all either Tatum needs to take a step to true MVP  level, OR Brown needs to take a leep to top 10-15 level AND they need some shooting luck.

Like ya, they lost to the Heat. That was maybe the first loss of the Tatum/Brown led era that felt disappointing, like they were clearly better. But.......the Heat also Beat the #1 seeded Bucks, and they shot like 45% from three. So I don't know, weird stuff happens.

I am not sure I am following all of this but is the crux of the debate that we should trade Brown because we have not won a title (implying some level of underachievement)?  Or that Brown is unhappy and wants out of Boston?

We just did a major trade, Smart for Porzingis.  It is still Brown and Tatum at the top but the complexion of the balance of the core of the team has been changed dramatically with this trade.  All indications are that we will extend Brown and not be able to trade him for a year.  If things go horribly bad this coming season, then trading Brown could be a consideration at that time.  Or a new coach, or any number of things.  I feel that extending him is clearly the best path forward.

But I am also not entirely opposed to trading Brown, if it is a really great trade.  Trades like that are hard to make and it is very unlikely one would happen.  I admit that if these reports of Brown trying to get trade kickers and ETO options are true, I find that a little greedy on his part.  This max extension, just as it is, is a awesome contract for Brown.  If he is thinking "Tatum got an ETO so I want an ETO" or whatever, that to me is a bad signal.  At one level, it is part of business to get the best contract possible, and if this is just part of the negotiation, that is fine, but if he really feels he his being mistreated or whatever, that to me is not a good sign.  I have no idea even if the reports are true, much less what is in Brown's head, I am just speculating.

[keevsnick]

See I VERY strongly disagree with the idea that they underachieved in any way. They've made 4 ECF with those guys, one NBA finals. All they haven't done is win one, but in the history of the NBA you typically don't win one unless you have a guy playing at a clear MVP level. The Nuggets had Jokic, The Bucks had Giannis, The Lakers had Lebron and AD playing and shooting out of his mind, Raptors had Kawhi, GSW had Durant/Curry. That's what it takes to win.

Tatum has been great, but he'd never quite had a run like that, and until he does i don't think you can say they've underachieved relative to their talent. The stuff about "well, they struggled at times against teams they are better than" is nonsense to me. Like, who cares? They WON THOSE SERIES. Its just sort of crazy to me to watch a team win as much as this team does, with those two guys, in the PRE-PRIME years and complain that somehow they don't win well enough. Like sure they win, but they need to win better somehow? Bottom line if they want to win it all either Tatum needs to take a step to true MVP  level, OR Brown needs to take a leep to top 10-15 level AND they need some shooting luck.

Like ya, they lost to the Heat. That was maybe the first loss of the Tatum/Brown led era that felt disappointing, like they were clearly better. But.......the Heat also Beat the #1 seeded Bucks, and they shot like 45% from three. So I don't know, weird stuff happens.

I am not sure I am following all of this but is the crux of the debate that we should trade Brown because we have not won a title (implying some level of underachievement)?  Or that Brown is unhappy and wants out of Boston?

We just did a major trade, Smart for Porzingis.  It is still Brown and Tatum at the top but the complexion of the balance of the core of the team has been changed dramatically with this trade.  All indications are that we will extend Brown and not be able to trade him for a year.  If things go horribly bad this coming season, then trading Brown could be a consideration at that time.  Or a new coach, or any number of things.  I feel that extending him is clearly the best path forward.

But I am also not entirely opposed to trading Brown, if it is a really great trade.  Trades like that are hard to make and it is very unlikely one would happen.  I admit that if these reports of Brown trying to get trade kickers and ETO options are true, I find that a little greedy on his part.  This max extension, just as it is, is a awesome contract for Brown.  If he is thinking "Tatum got an ETO so I want an ETO" or whatever, that to me is a bad signal.  At one level, it is part of business to get the best contract possible, and if this is just part of the negotiation, that is fine, but if he really feels he his being mistreated or whatever, that to me is not a good sign.  I have no idea even if the reports are true, much less what is in Brown's head, I am just speculating.

I'm not either. But that's not usually the argument people who want to trade him make. The argument is he's a bad fit with Tatum (not true), that the team has something wrong with its chemistry (no, they don't), or that he won't be movable on his new contract (wrong, imo).

The one opinion Brown has expressed clearly is he's tired of being in trade rumors, and that IS ENTIRELY FAIR. I mean he's been mentioned in trades for Butler, George, Davis, Kawhi, Durant, Harden, Lillard, Sabonis just off the top of my head since being drafted. I think that annoyance is to some extent justified. We as fans can justify it and say "well, its not insulting to be in trade rumors for those guys" but to the actual player if it keeps happening I get the frustration.

Also on the contract negotiations: The issue can't be a NTC, he's not eligible for one. Its probably not a trade kicker because a trade kicker can't increase your salary past a player's max, which he's already going to get, so its kind of a moot point. Well, unless he's willing to take less than his max then a trade kicker would matter.   

The only things really negotiable here are the actual pay (between 30-35% of the cap), whether there are incentives built in like his current contract has, or whether the final year is a team, player or no option (contract must be 5 years). That's it. If the issue is a PO i don't think that's crazy on Brown's part. A lot of guys get that player option. It can be a big deal to become a free agent a year earlier, gives a guy the option to sign another long term deal in his early thirties.

Brown should fight for the absolute best contract he can. He's a leader of the NBAPA, and on top of that his last contract ended up being a bargain. I'm not going to criticize a guy for fighting for every inch in that situation.