Author Topic: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?  (Read 172594 times)

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Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #660 on: June 22, 2023, 01:24:01 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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The question I have, does Stevens value defense the same anymore? Every move he has made since Udoka was let go has gone the opposite of that thinking. This reeks of Mazzulla ball.

I mean, as much as I love Smart people are underselling Zinger as a defensive player. If I remember correctly, he’s the top big in drop coverage PnR (and for God’s sake we know we love drop coverage), and his length gives him some excellent rim protection ability. His length is also something that could give players like Jokic and Embiid troubles as well as his floor spacing, though would have to see those matchups to know for sure.
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Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #661 on: June 22, 2023, 01:25:33 AM »

Offline SparzWizard

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I always got the impression that Porzingis was a poor defender, maybe that was just a case of mistaken identity but the mavs fans had issues with him on def.

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2021/8/16/22618945/the-issue-isnt-kristaps-porzingis-offense-its-his-defense

The Mavs always had problems with guys coming to them via trade/FA...Fisher, Rondo, Kyrie, Jordan, Kristaps, etc


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Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #662 on: June 22, 2023, 01:27:37 AM »

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I always got the impression that Porzingis was a poor defender, maybe that was just a case of mistaken identity but the mavs fans had issues with him on def.

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2021/8/16/22618945/the-issue-isnt-kristaps-porzingis-offense-its-his-defense

Which I know might be a flawed take but interesting

Porzingis is one of those guys that is capable of making so many quality defensive plays and is versatile defensively but generally plays defense in 2nd or 3rd gear. Rarely all out. Rarely high effort. A good chunk of the time he is people watching and watching the game pass him by instead of finding ways to be disruptive as a defender.

He gets pushed around sometimes still. By big post players like Embiid but more by offensive rebounds who can dislodge Porzingis and get to the offensive glass.

It is really more a question of effort than ability. He has the ability to be a very good defender and shows flashes of it. But he doesn't play with consistent high effort.

Porzingis doesn't appear to enjoy playing defense or enjoy rebounding or enjoy passing the ball. The only thing I've seen him get real pleasure out of on the basketball court is scoring the ball. He loves scoring the ball. And when he scores, he is happy and his effort improves as a defender and as a rebounder. And when he isn't scoring the ball, he puts in less effort as a defender and as a rebounder. You gotta keep him happy to keep him engaged on defense.


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Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #663 on: June 22, 2023, 01:28:12 AM »

Offline CelticSooner

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The question I have, does Stevens value defense the same anymore? Every move he has made since Udoka was let go has gone the opposite of that thinking. This reeks of Mazzulla ball.
Porzingis is a great rim protector and really good in the pick-and-roll. This is alongside all-defense players in Timelord and White, a genuinely great defender in Tatum, and two decent-to-great defenders in Horford and Brown. How is that not valuing defense? Smart had regressed as a defender anyways.

He’s not great at anything on defense. He’s a 7 foot tall jump shooter than uses his length on defense when he can. Under Mazzulla they’ll have him in the corner like they do Horford. The C’s are slowly piecing away the physicality on defense they used to play with.

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #664 on: June 22, 2023, 01:29:11 AM »

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Trading Smart probably sent a message to the locker room that anyone is not untouchable, except if your name starts with Jayson.

Or maybe, don't talk sheet about the coach during a playoff series..

I kinda feel that this has something to do with him being traded. Marcus did seem to “undermine” Joe at times. 

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #665 on: June 22, 2023, 01:33:56 AM »

Offline blink

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I always got the impression that Porzingis was a poor defender, maybe that was just a case of mistaken identity but the mavs fans had issues with him on def.

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2021/8/16/22618945/the-issue-isnt-kristaps-porzingis-offense-its-his-defense

Which I know might be a flawed take but interesting

Porzingis is one of those guys that is capable of making so many quality defensive plays and is versatile defensively but generally plays defense in 2nd or 3rd gear. Rarely all out. Rarely high effort. A good chunk of the time he is people watching and watching the game pass him by instead of finding ways to be disruptive as a defender.

He gets pushed around sometimes still. By big post players like Embiid but more by offensive rebounds who can dislodge Porzingis and get to the offensive glass.

It is really more a question of effort than ability. He has the ability to be a very good defender and shows flashes of it. But he doesn't play with consistent high effort.

Porzingis doesn't appear to enjoy playing defense or enjoy rebounding or enjoy passing the ball. The only thing I've seen him get real pleasure out of on the basketball court is scoring the ball. He loves scoring the ball. And when he scores, he is happy and his effort improves as a defender and as a rebounder. And when he isn't scoring the ball, he puts in less effort as a defender and as a rebounder. You gotta keep him happy to keep him engaged on defense.


Moody player.

lol great…not much we can do about it now I guess.
He is a talented off player hopefully Rob and Al can help offset the blah def effort

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #666 on: June 22, 2023, 01:34:01 AM »

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C: Porzingis
F: Horford
F: Tatum
G: Jaylen
G: D White

The other thing I was thinking about earlier was with Porzingis now coming in there is another guy who will be looking for his instead of the ball going to our best player down the stretch.

There were several games were many of us were concerned that Tatum was not getting the ball enough in the 4th quarter. That it ended up in other places.

Now we have not 1 but 2 prolific scorers looking to get theirs alongside Tatum. Both Jaylen and Porzingis are me-first offensive players. Both guys are takers (shot takers) rather than givers (setting up teammates).

I expect we'll see more frustrating games where our best offensive player Jayson Tatum ends up not getting the ball down the stretch and instead our 2nd and 3rd best offensive guys will be the ones making the plays instead of him. Less effective players than Tatum.

Wouldn't that be a coaching issue if they can't figure that out

Not really. Most of that stuff is decided by players.

A lot of the time GMs have to move guys out of the way in order to make sure their best players get the ball. Like when the Lakers traded Nick Van Exel because he wanted to freestyle with the ball instead of dumping the ball into Shaq in the low post.
White was a more than adequate passer in Smart's absence. 15/5/4 on 47/40/89 shooting with great defence is better than what Smart was offering us. I think you're selling White's passing short.

What if we go small ball? Tatum at the 4, as he is perfectly capable of doing. Use the MLE to beef up the bench, aim to draft a forward or big. I think that might offset some of your worries. Tatum IMO has the size to play that power wing role on defence, similar to an Aaron Gordon.

White / Pritchard
Brogdon / Hauser
Brown / #25 / MLE (?)
Tatum / Horford
Porzingis / Williams 3

No, I think we just live with the bad passing. I reckon Porzingis needs more help in the paint to rebound and be defensive backline. Best to keep a 2nd big alongside him most of time. Only use this small lineup situationally rather than as a starting unit.

White is an adequate passer. He just isn't that creative compared to other PGs in the league. I like him as a starting PG. We just do not have a lot of help for him (passing wise). Ideally you want a PG like him to have help. Like say Bam (high post facilitator) and Jimmy (playmaking wing) in Miami.

So I'd stay big. It is not a good passing group but it is still our best overall group.

An interesting side question would be: How many title teams in recent times have won with so little passing? I am not sure what the answer is but usually title teams are better passing teams than this.
The Raptors and the Bucks didn't have much better passing IMO. Jrue and Lowry are better than White / Tatum, but overall I think those groups are comparable.

I am with you on the Bucks. Good call.

I'd give TOR an edge over us because of Marc Gasol. I thought he made a difference for them with his high post passing. Prior to acquiring M Gasol mid-season with Ibaka as the starting C, I see that Raps team as comparable to us.



Edit: I am starting to 2nd guess the Bucks.

So you have Giannis who is an above average passer, Middleton who is an above average passer at SF and Jrue who is a solid passer at PG. B Lopez is a below par passer. I forget who their SG was that year but I will assume that guy was a below average passer as well. Still, they had 3 guys who were plus passers in their starting lineup. And those 3 guys who were plus passers were their 3 main offensive players who had the ball in their hands most of the time.


I always remember being surprised at Middleton when he was with Team USA in 2019. That was a badly constructed team. It was PG centric with little passing from the wings. The only wing player on that team who really moved the ball well and could handle it well was Middleton. That impressed me. I don't think he gets enough credit for his secondary ball-handling and passing. He is quite good.

I can't remember but that might have also been the tournament where he looked awfully out of shape as well!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2023, 01:42:31 AM by Who »

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #667 on: June 22, 2023, 01:36:33 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Well I don’t love waking up to this roster move, but it’ll be interesting to see how we look on the floor next season
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Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #668 on: June 22, 2023, 01:39:23 AM »

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Trading Smart probably sent a message to the locker room that anyone is not untouchable, except if your name starts with Jayson.

Or maybe, don't talk sheet about the coach during a playoff series..

I kinda feel that this has something to do with him being traded. Marcus did seem to “undermine” Joe at times.

Yeah, I was wondering that too. Not at first but after seeing other posters talk about Smart's comments about Mazzula during the playoffs. Did PBS get rid of Smart because he felt Smart was undermining his coach?

A former coach himself PBS could be more senstive to such things.

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #669 on: June 22, 2023, 01:51:47 AM »

Offline stes

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I really hate to see Smart go. He was my favorite Celtic. ;( So what’s next? Brogdon+Horford+filler for Dame? I know Blazers reportedly informed other teams they’re not trading him, but whatever.

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #670 on: June 22, 2023, 02:01:44 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Went to sleep wishing it was Smart going instead of Brogdon, just woke and checked the board -  Hah!  My reasoning was less being upset about losing MB and more about liking the dynamic of Derrick White starting (and finishing) in place of Marcus.  That said, it could be that Brad is just getting started. 

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #671 on: June 22, 2023, 02:03:43 AM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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The question I have, does Stevens value defense the same anymore? Every move he has made since Udoka was let go has gone the opposite of that thinking. This reeks of Mazzulla ball.

I mean, as much as I love Smart people are underselling Zinger as a defensive player. If I remember correctly, he’s the top big in drop coverage PnR (and for God’s sake we know we love drop coverage), and his length gives him some excellent rim protection ability. His length is also something that could give players like Jokic and Embiid troubles as well as his floor spacing, though would have to see those matchups to know for sure.

Brad made a preemptive strike against Victor Wembanyama coming into the league.

I’m ready for the Celtics to run out a Porzingis/Kornet front line when the Spurs come to town. Victor is used to being a foot taller than his competitors. It would be interesting to see how he does against 2 guys that are almost his size.

Lol. Just joking. Wembanyama might end up being a generational talent or not but he’s probably not going to dominate anyone until he puts on a few pounds.

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #672 on: June 22, 2023, 02:10:53 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Can someone clarify for me — NBA.com article is confusing - indicates both Celtics AND Wiz receiving 25th pick from Griz’.   Are Cs picking 25 tonight?

Smart, Gallo, Muscala for KP, 25, and GS ‘24 1st looks great to me.

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #673 on: June 22, 2023, 02:13:01 AM »

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Can someone clarify for me — NBA.com article is confusing - indicates both Celtics AND Wiz receiving 25th pick from Griz’.   Are Cs picking 25 tonight?

Smart, Gallo, Muscala for KP, 25, and GS ‘24 1st looks great to me.

Yes, Boston gets #25 and the Wizards have #35.

Re: Shams: Porzingis to Boston?
« Reply #674 on: June 22, 2023, 02:15:51 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Can someone clarify for me — NBA.com article is confusing - indicates both Celtics AND Wiz receiving 25th pick from Griz’.   Are Cs picking 25 tonight?

Smart, Gallo, Muscala for KP, 25, and GS ‘24 1st looks great to me.

Yes, Boston gets #25 and the Wizards have #35.

Thanks - TP.   Amazing return for Smart.