Author Topic: NBA Off-Season News  (Read 123432 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #420 on: September 03, 2023, 10:09:52 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3142
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
West was 6'3" 175 pounds.  Slightly taller but lighter than Curry.  That is the point I was making though.  They played in different eras so they developed their games differently.  Curry would have gone to the paint more in the 60's, while West would have shot the deep ball a lot more today.  Curry is an excellent ball handler with solid court vision.  And while he isn't a great defender, he does have quick defensive hands and a knack for getting steals (even leading the league once in spg and twice for total steals).  Curry would have been a superstar in any era, a different style of play to match the era, but a superstar nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj9jbyUlsPU

Jerry West himself saying his height. 6 foot 4 and a half with a 6-9 wingspan. Similar to D-Wade in height (taller Wade 6 foot 3 and 3/4ers) and length (Wade 6-10 three quarters wingspan) but not bulk (Wade 215lbs).

Curry is nowhere near West in height or athleticism.

Curry cannot get to the paint and finish at a high rate because he lacks the athleticism / quickness to do so. Curry cannot diversify his offense as well as other players as a result. He is more reliant on outside shooting / outside scoring.
I feel like you’re just asserting these things as true without actual evidence. Curry just shot 76% from 0-3 feet in the last season - he’s an unstoppable inside finisher. He’s impossible to compare to people from West’s era with the way people dribble these days vs the strictness of it back then.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #421 on: September 03, 2023, 10:13:00 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34535
  • Tommy Points: 1597
West was 6'3" 175 pounds.  Slightly taller but lighter than Curry.  That is the point I was making though.  They played in different eras so they developed their games differently.  Curry would have gone to the paint more in the 60's, while West would have shot the deep ball a lot more today.  Curry is an excellent ball handler with solid court vision.  And while he isn't a great defender, he does have quick defensive hands and a knack for getting steals (even leading the league once in spg and twice for total steals).  Curry would have been a superstar in any era, a different style of play to match the era, but a superstar nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj9jbyUlsPU

Jerry West himself saying his height. 6 foot 4 and a half with a 6-9 wingspan. Similar to D-Wade in height (taller Wade 6 foot 3 and 3/4ers) and length (Wade 6-10 three quarters wingspan) but not bulk (Wade 215lbs).

Curry is nowhere near West in height or athleticism.

Curry cannot get to the paint and finish at a high rate because he lacks the athleticism / quickness to do so. Curry cannot diversify his offense as well as other players as a result. He is more reliant on outside shooting / outside scoring.
I feel like you’re just asserting these things as true without actual evidence. Curry just shot 76% from 0-3 feet in the last season - he’s an unstoppable inside finisher. He’s impossible to compare to people from West’s era with the way people dribble these days vs the strictness of it back then.
And I'm willing to bet Curry is faster than West ever was.  The game was a lot slower in the 60's and the players weren't as athletic.

And West can claim he was 6'4" it doesn't make it so.  He may have been, but literally everwhere he is listed at 6'3".  I mean my mother-in-law swears she is 5'6" even though she is 5'4".
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #422 on: September 03, 2023, 10:28:41 PM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 52799
  • Tommy Points: 2568
West was 6'3" 175 pounds.  Slightly taller but lighter than Curry.  That is the point I was making though.  They played in different eras so they developed their games differently.  Curry would have gone to the paint more in the 60's, while West would have shot the deep ball a lot more today.  Curry is an excellent ball handler with solid court vision.  And while he isn't a great defender, he does have quick defensive hands and a knack for getting steals (even leading the league once in spg and twice for total steals).  Curry would have been a superstar in any era, a different style of play to match the era, but a superstar nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj9jbyUlsPU

Jerry West himself saying his height. 6 foot 4 and a half with a 6-9 wingspan. Similar to D-Wade in height (taller Wade 6 foot 3 and 3/4ers) and length (Wade 6-10 three quarters wingspan) but not bulk (Wade 215lbs).

Curry is nowhere near West in height or athleticism.

Curry cannot get to the paint and finish at a high rate because he lacks the athleticism / quickness to do so. Curry cannot diversify his offense as well as other players as a result. He is more reliant on outside shooting / outside scoring.
I feel like you’re just asserting these things as true without actual evidence. Curry just shot 76% from 0-3 feet in the last season - he’s an unstoppable inside finisher. He’s impossible to compare to people from West’s era with the way people dribble these days vs the strictness of it back then.

Yeah on small volume. Volume is the key here.

Guys like West and Tiny Archibald lived in the paint. They were far more dynamic athletes. Not all PGs live in the paint like that. Tiny was a freak in terms of his quickness. Nobody could stay in front of him. That is why he was able to get there so often. Quickness & aggressiveness off the bounce.


Steph is not like that. He is a moderate driver & finisher close the basket. He is that today. He was that as a young player in 2009-13. We have seen him in different times & different roles. We have a pretty good idea of how he fares in a role where the PG has more playmaking responsibilities vs off-ball responsibilities. We have a good idea of how well he drives the basketball. How well he finishes.

Steph is a solid but unexceptional driver. He gets around 25% of his buckets within 10 feet of the rim according to Bref.com which is similar today as in the 2009-13 period before he upped his 3s from 33-45% to 55-60% of his total shot attempts. Most of that difference came from changing long 2s into 3s. So just switching which outside shot he took. That his game = outside shooting & outside scoring of which he is among the very best (if not the single best) of all time.

That outside scoring & shooting threat translates well to other eras but he is not a well-rounded scorer who scores at a high level around the basket. He is not a top notch driver who beats people off the bounce at high frequency (only moderate frequency). That is not his game. He is not as good at that.

Tony Parker was a guy in recent times who could get into the paint at will. He lived there. Got there whenever he wanted. He took about 50% of his shots within 10 feet of the basket compared to 25% for Steph. Parker actually took 55% of his shots within 10 feet in his prime 2006-14. That is who Tiny Archibald was.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #423 on: September 04, 2023, 07:39:00 AM »

Offline LilRip

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6987
  • Tommy Points: 411
West was 6'3" 175 pounds.  Slightly taller but lighter than Curry.  That is the point I was making though.  They played in different eras so they developed their games differently.  Curry would have gone to the paint more in the 60's, while West would have shot the deep ball a lot more today.  Curry is an excellent ball handler with solid court vision.  And while he isn't a great defender, he does have quick defensive hands and a knack for getting steals (even leading the league once in spg and twice for total steals).  Curry would have been a superstar in any era, a different style of play to match the era, but a superstar nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj9jbyUlsPU

Jerry West himself saying his height. 6 foot 4 and a half with a 6-9 wingspan. Similar to D-Wade in height (taller Wade 6 foot 3 and 3/4ers) and length (Wade 6-10 three quarters wingspan) but not bulk (Wade 215lbs).

Curry is nowhere near West in height or athleticism.

Curry cannot get to the paint and finish at a high rate because he lacks the athleticism / quickness to do so. Curry cannot diversify his offense as well as other players as a result. He is more reliant on outside shooting / outside scoring.
I feel like you’re just asserting these things as true without actual evidence. Curry just shot 76% from 0-3 feet in the last season - he’s an unstoppable inside finisher. He’s impossible to compare to people from West’s era with the way people dribble these days vs the strictness of it back then.

Yeah on small volume. Volume is the key here.

Guys like West and Tiny Archibald lived in the paint. They were far more dynamic athletes. Not all PGs live in the paint like that. Tiny was a freak in terms of his quickness. Nobody could stay in front of him. That is why he was able to get there so often. Quickness & aggressiveness off the bounce.


Steph is not like that. He is a moderate driver & finisher close the basket. He is that today. He was that as a young player in 2009-13. We have seen him in different times & different roles. We have a pretty good idea of how he fares in a role where the PG has more playmaking responsibilities vs off-ball responsibilities. We have a good idea of how well he drives the basketball. How well he finishes.

Steph is a solid but unexceptional driver. He gets around 25% of his buckets within 10 feet of the rim according to Bref.com which is similar today as in the 2009-13 period before he upped his 3s from 33-45% to 55-60% of his total shot attempts. Most of that difference came from changing long 2s into 3s. So just switching which outside shot he took. That his game = outside shooting & outside scoring of which he is among the very best (if not the single best) of all time.

That outside scoring & shooting threat translates well to other eras but he is not a well-rounded scorer who scores at a high level around the basket. He is not a top notch driver who beats people off the bounce at high frequency (only moderate frequency). That is not his game. He is not as good at that.

Tony Parker was a guy in recent times who could get into the paint at will. He lived there. Got there whenever he wanted. He took about 50% of his shots within 10 feet of the basket compared to 25% for Steph. Parker actually took 55% of his shots within 10 feet in his prime 2006-14. That is who Tiny Archibald was.

Um… what?

Curry is an elite finisher in the paint. He’s just a deadly shooter and his team’s best chance at winning is when he shoots threes or draws attention when he’s popping open for three

If Tony Parker could shoot threes like Steph, he would’ve been taking more shots from the outside too
- LilRip

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #424 on: September 04, 2023, 09:49:36 AM »

Online Vermont Green

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13582
  • Tommy Points: 1023
It is really hard to compare players from different eras.  I am old enough that I got to see Magic play and I am really clear about what he was as a player.  I think Magic is clearly better than Curry, but that is just my opinion.  It is subjective.  One tangible thing is the had check rule.  If people could be more physical with Curry, that would make a difference.  Teams tried everything against Magic, and couldn't stop him.

One thing that is interesting to me is that Curry wasn't even always the best player on his team.  Durant was better for those few seasons.  Curry is the best shooter ever, and he did lead his team to a title twice as the best player (although not finals MVP in both cases).  The CLE year was helped considerably by injuries to Kyrie and Love, and he wasn't the finals MVP.  I asterisk that one.  Then he beat the Celtics of course, a team that probably wasn't quite ready for that big stage.  But you have to give that one to Curry.  He was the best player on the championship team.  He was the difference.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #425 on: September 04, 2023, 11:02:38 AM »

Offline Surferdad

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15241
  • Tommy Points: 1034
  • "He fiddles...and diddles..."
I agree with VG, and we are likely similar age. Magic is top10 all time. Curry is just a bit below that.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #426 on: September 04, 2023, 11:07:57 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13541
  • Tommy Points: 1711
Toni Kukoc: I wish that you could put today’s players in the 90’s and have that way of basketball with the hard fouls and everything else and when you’re talking about these guys obviously there’s going to be players that say, ‘Yeah but what about Magic and Bird? What about Bill Russell? What about Elgin Baylor?’ Because in their era those guys were so dominant, that nobody else came close. And then they say why would you and say disrespected and in a way it might be true because you’re not mentioning – especially now when you’re talking; people want to get on social media and these are all mid-20 or mid-30 years old that have never seen these guys play and they say, ‘Awww they were slower, they were not physically ready, they’re not this they’re not that…’ but they were scoring buckets from everywhere. They had so much skills; they knew basketball in their little finger. So it’s hard. It’s really hard and it’s not pleasant to try to say that this guy was better than the other if they never played against each other. If they had some kind of record – either the playing that their teams respectfully playing against each other or their records individually head-to-head, then you can say this one had more wins than the other but not such a case.” – via Twitter
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #427 on: September 04, 2023, 11:24:12 AM »

Offline Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32615
  • Tommy Points: 1730
  • What a Pub Should Be
Always thought Bird had a good perspective on things and certainly seems to differ from most former players.

Quote
"These old, broken-down NBA players talking about their era and how great they were back then, and the players today are not as good as they were back then," Bird said. "That's crazy, man. You haven't seen LeBron James in the last 17, 18 years? You haven't seen Klay Thompson score 37 points in one quarter. ... You don't see James Harden come down the lane and dunking on whoever's standing there.

"It's just amazing how these guys are playing the game today, and I couldn't be prouder of them. The game's in a good place. I tell all these young players coming in today, 'Keep the game the way you found it, and it can go on for generations to come.'"


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #428 on: September 04, 2023, 11:34:37 AM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 45920
  • Tommy Points: 3340
Always thought Bird had a good perspective on things and certainly seems to differ from most former players.

Quote
"These old, broken-down NBA players talking about their era and how great they were back then, and the players today are not as good as they were back then," Bird said. "That's crazy, man. You haven't seen LeBron James in the last 17, 18 years? You haven't seen Klay Thompson score 37 points in one quarter. ... You don't see James Harden come down the lane and dunking on whoever's standing there.

"It's just amazing how these guys are playing the game today, and I couldn't be prouder of them. The game's in a good place. I tell all these young players coming in today, 'Keep the game the way you found it, and it can go on for generations to come.'"

Bird left it all out there. He has no regrets about his play.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #429 on: September 04, 2023, 06:01:37 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3142
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
It is really hard to compare players from different eras.  I am old enough that I got to see Magic play and I am really clear about what he was as a player.  I think Magic is clearly better than Curry, but that is just my opinion.  It is subjective.  One tangible thing is the had check rule.  If people could be more physical with Curry, that would make a difference.  Teams tried everything against Magic, and couldn't stop him.

One thing that is interesting to me is that Curry wasn't even always the best player on his team.  Durant was better for those few seasons.  Curry is the best shooter ever, and he did lead his team to a title twice as the best player (although not finals MVP in both cases).  The CLE year was helped considerably by injuries to Kyrie and Love, and he wasn't the finals MVP.  I asterisk that one.  Then he beat the Celtics of course, a team that probably wasn't quite ready for that big stage.  But you have to give that one to Curry.  He was the best player on the championship team.  He was the difference.
I've never agreed that Durant was the better player on those teams. Go back and watch how opposition defences played Golden State during those years - Curry was the clear focal point of their efforts
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #430 on: September 04, 2023, 06:02:58 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3142
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
Always thought Bird had a good perspective on things and certainly seems to differ from most former players.

Quote
"These old, broken-down NBA players talking about their era and how great they were back then, and the players today are not as good as they were back then," Bird said. "That's crazy, man. You haven't seen LeBron James in the last 17, 18 years? You haven't seen Klay Thompson score 37 points in one quarter. ... You don't see James Harden come down the lane and dunking on whoever's standing there.

"It's just amazing how these guys are playing the game today, and I couldn't be prouder of them. The game's in a good place. I tell all these young players coming in today, 'Keep the game the way you found it, and it can go on for generations to come.'"
This is the perspective of someone with strong self-esteem and an ego that is not made of glass. Bird obviously knows how good he was, but it doesn't diminish from others
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #431 on: September 04, 2023, 09:42:13 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34535
  • Tommy Points: 1597
It is really hard to compare players from different eras.  I am old enough that I got to see Magic play and I am really clear about what he was as a player.  I think Magic is clearly better than Curry, but that is just my opinion.  It is subjective.  One tangible thing is the had check rule.  If people could be more physical with Curry, that would make a difference.  Teams tried everything against Magic, and couldn't stop him.

One thing that is interesting to me is that Curry wasn't even always the best player on his team.  Durant was better for those few seasons.  Curry is the best shooter ever, and he did lead his team to a title twice as the best player (although not finals MVP in both cases).  The CLE year was helped considerably by injuries to Kyrie and Love, and he wasn't the finals MVP.  I asterisk that one.  Then he beat the Celtics of course, a team that probably wasn't quite ready for that big stage.  But you have to give that one to Curry.  He was the best player on the championship team.  He was the difference.
Magic wasn't the best player on his team his first few years though either.  Guys like Bird, Jordan, and Lebron that come in immediately and are the best player on their team and remain so for basically the entirety of their careers are not the norm. 

And Curry absolutely was the best player on the Warriors the first year.  I'll give you that injuries to Love and Irving altered that series, but Curry was a near unanimous MVP that season (and was the unanimous MVP the next year).  There is no question at all he was the Warriors best player and he was very good in the finals going for 26/5.2/6.3 with by far the best GMSC on the Warriors.  Iggy winning that Finals MVP was a travesty and mistake.  It shouldn't have happened.  It was either Curry or Lebron (in the losing effort) that should have won it.

I have Magic ahead of Curry all time, so I think he was better.  He was also more accomplished and his size really allowed him to do things Curry couldn't. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #432 on: September 05, 2023, 06:55:32 AM »

Online Birdman

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10303
  • Tommy Points: 465
To me I never argue who’s best ever in any sport..got out lot of factors in like what era u played in, who else was on ur team, injuries, etc…players in the old days didn’t have the technology of course like workouts, traveling conditions, medicine & more
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #433 on: September 05, 2023, 07:48:26 AM »

Offline Surferdad

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15241
  • Tommy Points: 1034
  • "He fiddles...and diddles..."
To me I never argue who’s best ever in any sport..got out lot of factors in like what era u played in, who else was on ur team, injuries, etc…players in the old days didn’t have the technology of course like workouts, traveling conditions, medicine & more
Well, that's what makes it fun. This isn't meant to be easy and there are no simple answers, just spirited discussions.

Also, it's off-season and we are basketball junkies.

Re: NBA Off-Season News
« Reply #434 on: September 05, 2023, 07:48:31 AM »

Online Vermont Green

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13582
  • Tommy Points: 1023
It is really hard to compare players from different eras.  I am old enough that I got to see Magic play and I am really clear about what he was as a player.  I think Magic is clearly better than Curry, but that is just my opinion.  It is subjective.  One tangible thing is the had check rule.  If people could be more physical with Curry, that would make a difference.  Teams tried everything against Magic, and couldn't stop him.

One thing that is interesting to me is that Curry wasn't even always the best player on his team.  Durant was better for those few seasons.  Curry is the best shooter ever, and he did lead his team to a title twice as the best player (although not finals MVP in both cases).  The CLE year was helped considerably by injuries to Kyrie and Love, and he wasn't the finals MVP.  I asterisk that one.  Then he beat the Celtics of course, a team that probably wasn't quite ready for that big stage.  But you have to give that one to Curry.  He was the best player on the championship team.  He was the difference.
Magic wasn't the best player on his team his first few years though either.  Guys like Bird, Jordan, and Lebron that come in immediately and are the best player on their team and remain so for basically the entirety of their careers are not the norm. 

And Curry absolutely was the best player on the Warriors the first year.  I'll give you that injuries to Love and Irving altered that series, but Curry was a near unanimous MVP that season (and was the unanimous MVP the next year).  There is no question at all he was the Warriors best player and he was very good in the finals going for 26/5.2/6.3 with by far the best GMSC on the Warriors.  Iggy winning that Finals MVP was a travesty and mistake.  It shouldn't have happened.  It was either Curry or Lebron (in the losing effort) that should have won it.

I have Magic ahead of Curry all time, so I think he was better.  He was also more accomplished and his size really allowed him to do things Curry couldn't.

Isn't this what the whole discussion is about?  Who is better all time, or the best PG ever?  Sounds like we agree on the main point.

And Magic was the best player on the Lakers every year, including his rookie year where he was MVP of the finals while playing Center after Kareem got hurt.  Maybe not the whole season, but he was the best in the finals.  And even if he wasn't, how many 19 year old rookies are the best player on their team.  Curry certainly wasn't.

And I also agree that Curry was the best player on the team the season they beat CLE (2015), the asterisk is for the injuries to Kyrie and Love, primarily, but he technically was not the finals MVP.  It is arguable that he should have been, that is fair.  He played well but he did not dominate, and was lucky to have won the title that year.