Will the celtics make a coaching change?

[cman88]

i'm going to make a rational thread here and not all these "TRaDe Brown! Trade tatum!" type takes.

We are signing Brown either way. hes 26 years old, made the all NBA team. any competent GM knows you don't change how you view a player based on one series. he was good in the Atlanta/philly series, is 26 years and old and we have NO other options to replace him with someone better. that would be a franchise killing move that the same fans here calling for it would be lambasting ownership for selling early. it would be like OKC trading harden and then he became a stud.

okay, back to the question at hand. before game 3, I thought stevens would stubbornly stick with Mazzulla next year and chalk it up to "growing pains". But after that game 3 performanc, mazzulla saying he lost the locker-room I don't see how you bring him back.

its clear hes lost the lockerroom and the players have tuned him out. The defense of last year is gone (coaching). and you have Horford coaching the team in time-outs. that is just bad

Coach Bud, Doc rivers, nick nurse, monty williams were all fired for MUCH LESS than this. those teams weren't embarrassed. and now all these quality coaches are on the market. its a perfect opportunity to bring someone in experienced.

[Kernewek]

I said it in another thread, but the situations that Williams and Budenholzer, in particular, found themselves in are not particularly relevant to the situation Mazzulla will be in at the end of the series, win or lose. Doc's situation is also pretty different, because he's had years of second-round exits under his belt now, across two different star-studded lineups.

Now, having said that, I would view swapping Mazzulla for Williams, in particular, as an upgrade for sure.

[cman88]

I said it in another thread, but the situations that Williams and Budenholzer, in particular, found themselves in are not particularly relevant to the situation Mazzulla will be in at the end of the series, win or lose. Doc's situation is also pretty different, because he's had years of second-round exits under his belt now, across two different star-studded lineups.

Now, having said that, I would view swapping Mazzulla for Williams, in particular, as an upgrade for sure.

It's actually worse. those guys never lost the locker-room. their teams just fired them for the sake of maybe a change will shake it up. in Hindsight, Milwaukee firing Bud seems like a bad decision. The miami team is legit

Mazzulla clearly isn't an NBA caliber head coach. and with statements like he lost the locker-room you think they will keep him?? once the players lose faith and tune out the coach its over. doesn't matter how much stevens likes him. They aren't going to follow him next year.

its why Stevens moved to the front office. Team tuned him out at some point and he knew he had to step back from coaching.

[bricone29]

But, Joe was 4th in Coach of the year this year! Lol

[Kernewek]

I said it in another thread, but the situations that Williams and Budenholzer, in particular, found themselves in are not particularly relevant to the situation Mazzulla will be in at the end of the series, win or lose. Doc's situation is also pretty different, because he's had years of second-round exits under his belt now, across two different star-studded lineups.

Now, having said that, I would view swapping Mazzulla for Williams, in particular, as an upgrade for sure.

It's actually worse. those guys never lost the locker-room. their teams just fired them for the sake of maybe a change will shake it up. in Hindsight, Milwaukee firing Bud seems like a bad decision. The miami team is legit

Mazzulla clearly isn't an NBA caliber head coach. and with statements like he lost the locker-room you think they will keep him?? once the players lose faith and tune out the coach its over. doesn't matter how much stevens likes him. They aren't going to follow him next year.

its why Stevens moved to the front office. Team tuned him out at some point and he knew he had to step back from coaching.

You are correct about Stevens, but your timeline is off - he lost the lockerroom in the 2020 playoffs, incidentally when we lost to the Miami Heat in the ECF. Remember the widely-cited Smart & Brown argument after we went down 2-0 in that series?

Point being, Stevens played out another year as HC. It didn't end well, but he didn't move on immediately after Miami:

https://theathletic.com/2660873/2021/06/19/an-inside-look-at-the-factors-that-led-to-the-inevitable-break-up-between-kemba-walker-and-the-celtics/
https://theathletic.com/2076247/2020/09/18/shams-inside-the-celtics-heated-locker-room-scene-following-game-2/

[cman88]

I said it in another thread, but the situations that Williams and Budenholzer, in particular, found themselves in are not particularly relevant to the situation Mazzulla will be in at the end of the series, win or lose. Doc's situation is also pretty different, because he's had years of second-round exits under his belt now, across two different star-studded lineups.

Now, having said that, I would view swapping Mazzulla for Williams, in particular, as an upgrade for sure.

It's actually worse. those guys never lost the locker-room. their teams just fired them for the sake of maybe a change will shake it up. in Hindsight, Milwaukee firing Bud seems like a bad decision. The miami team is legit

Mazzulla clearly isn't an NBA caliber head coach. and with statements like he lost the locker-room you think they will keep him?? once the players lose faith and tune out the coach its over. doesn't matter how much stevens likes him. They aren't going to follow him next year.

its why Stevens moved to the front office. Team tuned him out at some point and he knew he had to step back from coaching.

You are correct about Stevens, but your timeline is off - he lost the lockerroom in the 2020 playoffs, incidentally when we lost to the Miami Heat in the ECF. Remember the widely-cited Smart & Brown argument after we went down 2-0 in that series?

Point being, Stevens played out another year as HC. It didn't end well, but he didn't move on immediately after Miami:

https://theathletic.com/2660873/2021/06/19/an-inside-look-at-the-factors-that-led-to-the-inevitable-break-up-between-kemba-walker-and-the-celtics/
https://theathletic.com/2076247/2020/09/18/shams-inside-the-celtics-heated-locker-room-scene-following-game-2/

Stevens was an experienced coach at that point though who had years of success in the league. I don't think its fair to compare the two situations in that year.  the year before they chalked up to it being because of "kyrie" so gave him another chance with a new team minus kyrie.

here, you have a team that was amazing defensively last year that made it to the NBA finals. you upgraded the roster and only thing you changed was the coaching. and instead of advancing/improving on last year you are getting swept by an 8th seed.

I'm not sure how you believe they should just roll out mazzulla next year when the team is publicly calling him out, he is publicly saying he lost the locker room and they are getting swept by an 8th seed. he's lost the locker-room its over.

championship winning coaches were fired for MUCH LESS. yet many on the board want us to hang onto joe for....well im not sure why..

[Kernewek]

I think this conversation would be much more productive if you stopped inserting incorrect presumptions about what I believe or 'want'.

[cman88]

I think this conversation would be much more productive if you stopped inserting incorrect presumptions about what I believe or 'want'.

okay, maybe you don't "want" mazzulla back. but you  at least think that he will be back.

i'm just stating why I believe he wont. As much as Brad may like him, once you lose the locker-room its over. I dont think Brad ever lost "trust" from the celtics roster. I think at some point they just stopped listening to him. I don't recall any players calling him out publicly.

I just think there is a big difference between Brads situation (and many of the other veteran coaches) to the celtics situation.

[Roy H.]

To answer the question:  I don't know. 

If they don't, it shows that ownership / management doesn't really care about winning.  We'd essentially be committing to a really high-level treadmill team, because Joe will never get it done.

[mobilija]

Does anyone have a link to Mazzulla or the players saying that the locker room is lost or players don't trust?

[boscel33]

Does anyone have a link to Mazzulla or the players saying that the locker room is lost or players don't trust?

Jared Weiss is reporting it.  Here's one link:

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/joe-mazzulla-celtics-coach-heat-game-3-quote-locker-room/qgvp9fbddjhngpmccasmwxkz

[jambr380]

I keep hearing people say they won't make a change because 4 head coaches in 4 years is too much, but I think that is looking at it too broadly. First of all, the coach most all of the core players know is still very much in the organization and is available to talk to players whenever they want. Brad has been a constant for years.

With Ime, they let our top players give input on the decision. It was a smooth transition out of coaching for Brad and the players actually got what they want.

And with Joe, if you take out the fact that he wasn't officially named head coach, then it isn't bad at all. First, he was on Brad's staff, so he was a constant (not just the 3rd coach in 3 years). And, 2nd, he was thrown into a situation he wasn't ready for and players were well aware of this from the beginning.

If you go back to how they handled things with Ime, I think the players would welcome that opportunity again. You can tell they like Joe and would like to have him back on the staff, but they really don't seem to think he is a great leader for this team. It's too bad they actually signed him, because it could have been looked at as him really stepping up and we wouldn't have to fire him and remove him from our organization completely.

[Roy H.]

Does anyone have a link to Mazzulla or the players saying that the locker room is lost or players don't trust?

I think this is as close as you'll see:

Jared Weiss @JaredWeissNBA

Joe Mazzulla was asked if he has lost the locker room: "Yeah, it’s why I need to be better to figure out what this team needs." Why has that happened? "I’m not sure."

“Yeah, that’s where I have to be better, figure out what this team needs to make sure that they’re connected, they’re physical and they’re together by the time we step on the floor,” Mazzulla said.

When asked about what had led to the potential disconnect, Mazzulla replied, “I’m not sure.”

That's Joe suggesting the team is not connected and together right now.  After that, it just gets vague, presumably because nobody wants to call anybody out directly with the series still going on:

Jaylen Brown: "We can point fingers. In reality, it’s just embarrassing."

Al Horford on defensive identity: "We have lost it."

[celticinorlando]

Should they? Yes

Will they? No

I think Brad won't do anything to be honest with you. He seems like a guy that holds on too long instead of making a tough choice.

[Banner18now!]

Does anyone have a link to Mazzulla or the players saying that the locker room is lost or players don't trust?

I think this is as close as you'll see:

Jared Weiss @JaredWeissNBA

Joe Mazzulla was asked if he has lost the locker room: "Yeah, it’s why I need to be better to figure out what this team needs." Why has that happened? "I’m not sure."

“Yeah, that’s where I have to be better, figure out what this team needs to make sure that they’re connected, they’re physical and they’re together by the time we step on the floor,” Mazzulla said.

When asked about what had led to the potential disconnect, Mazzulla replied, “I’m not sure.”

That's Joe suggesting the team is not connected and together right now.  After that, it just gets vague, presumably because nobody wants to call anybody out directly with the series still going on:

Jaylen Brown: "We can point fingers. In reality, it’s just embarrassing."

Al Horford on defensive identity: "We have lost it."

The quote by Mazzula saying he needs to figure out what they need to be connected says it all for me. He had all year to figure that out and he still doesn’t know. Again this is on Brad and Wyc for throwing this guy at the helm with a championship roster. But now you have to question how fragile the two J’s are.