Celtics (2-3) at 76ers (3-2) Round 2 Game #6 5/11/23

[ozgod]

I have a lot of respect for how Tatum played tonight on a bad shooting night. It is nights like this where you show your character.

Do you stop playing defense? Do you keep showing effort for lose balls? Do you attack the glass? Do you find a way to help offensively with your handles and passing? Tatum did all that.

He never stopped competing. Hustling.

He can't buy a bucket until late but he never stopped trying to find a way to help his team. That is character. That is not giving up. That is fighting through adversity. That is finding a way to get it done.

TP, You have to give him a lot of credit. It took him till the last 4 minutes to get his shot to fall but he never gave up. It really does show character. Obviously in an ideal world we would want him to score 30 points and shoot 60% and make it a Gino night but playoff games are rarely like that, because the other team is trying to win too and make it hard for us. He's not had the series he or we would want to have but he's still averaged 25pts, 10 rebounds and 5 assists even shooting 41% overall and 31% from 3.

I don't think he's deliberately trying to play bad, as frustrating as it looks to us - he's kind of a streaky player, once he makes a shot it really helps his rhythm. I agree with Mahk it's not sustainable to have him be inconsistent and we would love him to be the dominant player we know he can be but I feel like playoffs, it's about scrapping for what you can get and to his credit he never gave him, he still had the courage to take those shots and cop all the criticism that was going to come his way if he kept missing.

[Celtics4ever]

I thought it played hard but pressed too much. 

He had a great finish.

[Phantom255x]

So the schedules are released. IF Golden State wins tonight and forces Game 7, Boston vs Philly is Sunday 8 PM on TNT. If the Lakers win and advance tonight, Game 7 is Sunday 3:30 PM on ABC

The ECF starts next Wednesday and it’s an “every other day” schedule with ALL games on TNT at 8:30 PM EST (ugh)

https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1656882837520281600?cxt=HHwWgMCzzbCKt_4tAAAA

[Kernewek]

anyone backing off the notion that joe should have benched tatum is drunk on the emotion of the “win.” if hauser or pp or grant replace jt during the game and hit just a few pedestrian buckets, the c’s win going away and they don’t need his last minute “heroics.”

this was bad coaching and if the sixers don’t completely melt down in epic doc fashion, the c’s lose handily. 

our future super max finally hit a few shots, after disappearing for most of the playoffs, including last year’s finals, and suddenly he’s the man? go sell crazy some place else.

i’m glad the c’s won and everyone can revel in the moment, but this isn’t sustainable, winning basketball.

This is a bad time for an 'I told you so' moment. Perhaps not starting Tatum would have yielded different results, but by the time we knew Tatum was bad (end of the 1st), it was already official. It had happened.

Give the man his dues. He was a punching bag all night and came up big when we needed him the most. That is the definition of a superstar.

this is the exact opposite of an “i told you so moment,” as the C’s pulled it out. had the C’s lost and tatum continued his putrid play, then it’s an “i told you moment.”

i get the euphoria and i’m thrilled the C’s won to stay alive but joe has to be willing to hold tatum accountable for not showing up consistently. it’s not as if tatum had an unusually poor shooting night and we’re calling for him to be benched for one bad night. the dude has been worse than a no-show; he’s hurting the team with his epic run of disappearing acts.

if tatum knew there were consequences for consistent poor play, we might not see it as much. that’s called accountability and coaching. even “superstars” need to be held accountable and coached.

When your data points for “a consistent run of poor play” include last years finals, you’re stretching.

Like I said, broadly speaking you’re not wrong about playing time - but Tatum’s consistent poor play is averaging 27/10/5 this postseason. We think our bench guys who aren’t playing currently can replicate that when they’re not playing with Tatum? I have my doubts.

Not to mention he played well tonight, even if his shot wasn’t falling.

it’s not stretching; it’s fact. he disappeared several
times in this series, the hawks series, and the finals last year. those are the last three playoff series the C’s have played, making it a trend.

i noticed you quoted box score stats but not efficiency, which has been extremely poor. his disappearing acts for multiple quarters per game, only to fill the box score when it’s too late, is not winning basketball. the hawks series should not have extended to six games but tatum kept them in it. same tonight with the sixers, who played extremely poorly and were begging to be put away.

tatum did play well, outside of scoring, in the first half only. the second half he was a complete no-show (except for horrible shots and turnovers) until the final 3-4 minutes. did he pull it out? yes. is it sustainable? as i stated, no.

What I am suggesting to you with quick box score numbers (and this is validated by whatever metric you care to choose) is that replacing Tatum's production across the floor, not just his shooting, with the 8-10 guys in our rotation is less realistic than you might think.

You brought up Grant's great game 7, which was phenomenal, but he scored two points in games 5 and 6 combined, which is part of the reason why his game 7 was so extraordinary. And, in that game, he played nearly all of his minutes with Tatum, including all 12 minutes of the third quarter. Does he have that great shooting second and third with Tatum on the bench? I'm doubtful.

Do I wish Tatum had even shot 30% from the field for the first three quarters of the game? Of course. It would have been a blowout. Do I expect him to continue to shoot 1-13? Not really.

[ozgod]

anyone backing off the notion that joe should have benched tatum is drunk on the emotion of the “win.” if hauser or pp or grant replace jt during the game and hit just a few pedestrian buckets, the c’s win going away and they don’t need his last minute “heroics.”

this was bad coaching and if the sixers don’t completely melt down in epic doc fashion, the c’s lose handily. 

our future super max finally hit a few shots, after disappearing for most of the playoffs, including last year’s finals, and suddenly he’s the man? go sell crazy some place else.

i’m glad the c’s won and everyone can revel in the moment, but this isn’t sustainable, winning basketball.

This is a bad time for an 'I told you so' moment. Perhaps not starting Tatum would have yielded different results, but by the time we knew Tatum was bad (end of the 1st), it was already official. It had happened.

Give the man his dues. He was a punching bag all night and came up big when we needed him the most. That is the definition of a superstar.

this is the exact opposite of an “i told you so moment,” as the C’s pulled it out. had the C’s lost and tatum continued his putrid play, then it’s an “i told you moment.”

i get the euphoria and i’m thrilled the C’s won to stay alive but joe has to be willing to hold tatum accountable for not showing up consistently. it’s not as if tatum had an unusually poor shooting night and we’re calling for him to be benched for one bad night. the dude has been worse than a no-show; he’s hurting the team with his epic run of disappearing acts.

if tatum knew there were consequences for consistent poor play, we might not see it as much. that’s called accountability and coaching. even “superstars” need to be held accountable and coached.

When your data points for “a consistent run of poor play” include last years finals, you’re stretching.

Like I said, broadly speaking you’re not wrong about playing time - but Tatum’s consistent poor play is averaging 27/10/5 this postseason. We think our bench guys who aren’t playing currently can replicate that when they’re not playing with Tatum? I have my doubts.

Not to mention he played well tonight, even if his shot wasn’t falling.

it’s not stretching; it’s fact. he disappeared several
times in this series, the hawks series, and the finals last year. those are the last three playoff series the C’s have played, making it a trend.

i noticed you quoted box score stats but not efficiency, which has been extremely poor. his disappearing acts for multiple quarters per game, only to fill the box score when it’s too late, is not winning basketball. the hawks series should not have extended to six games but tatum kept them in it. same tonight with the sixers, who played extremely poorly and were begging to be put away.

tatum did play well, outside of scoring, in the first half only. the second half he was a complete no-show (except for horrible shots and turnovers) until the final 3-4 minutes. did he pull it out? yes. is it sustainable? as i stated, no.

What I am suggesting to you with quick box score numbers (and this is validated by whatever metric you care to choose) is that replacing Tatum's production across the floor, not just his shooting, with the 8-10 guys in our rotation is less realistic than you might think.

You brought up Grant's great game 7, which was phenomenal, but he scored two points in games 5 and 6 combined, which is part of the reason why his game 7 was so extraordinary. And, in that game, he played nearly all of his minutes with Tatum, including all 12 minutes of the third quarter. Does he have that great shooting second and third with Tatum on the bench? I'm doubtful.

Do I wish Tatum had even shot 30% from the field for the first three quarters of the game? Of course. It would have been a blowout. Do I expect him to continue to shoot 1-13? Not really.

It’s easy to get frustrated with guys like Tatum because sometimes, especially because they have somewhat passive personalities, it seems like they are cruising or don’t care or are jacking up bad shots or whatever. Send him a message thst he sucks and sit the barstard that’ll learn him to be casual! But it’s all relative - it only works if you have someone who can replace the production at the level of consistency thst you want Tatum to have in the first place. And not only that, who has the mental fortitude to perform in the pressure of the playoffs and who has the gravity to attract the kind of defensive attention that a star like Tatum attracts. As bad as Tatum has shot he still attracts traps and doubles that free up other players.

Ultimately you could ask the question - who would be happier if we sat Tatum, his own team or the opposing team? If we sat Tatum for the Game 7 decider I think Doc Rivers would think all his Christmases had come at once 

I can see where Mahk is coming from, he’s probably frustrated at the underperformance of a team that a lot of fans here think should be winning by 20+ each game but instead each game has been a struggle, and Tatums struggles have been a highlight. But sitting a guy who is still providing 25ppg, 10rpg and 5apg probably creates bigger problems than it solves.

[Neurotic Guy]

So the schedules are released. IF Golden State wins tonight and forces Game 7, Boston vs Philly is Sunday 8 PM on TNT. If the Lakers win and advance tonight, Game 7 is Sunday 3:30 PM on ABC

The ECF starts next Wednesday and it’s an “every other day” schedule with ALL games on TNT at 8:30 PM EST (ugh)

https://twitter.com/ChrisForsberg_/status/1656882837520281600?cxt=HHwWgMCzzbCKt_4tAAAA

I didn’t need another reason to hope GSW wins tonight, but got one. 3:30 on Mother’s Day is wrong. 

[cman88]

I thought it played hard but pressed too much. 

He had a great finish.

its like some sort of switch went off. as horrible as he played all game he just put the sixers away by himself in those last 4 minutes. to me thats a step forward, its what the great ones do. forget the last 3 quarters. its about now.

celtics need to find a way to get him some easy buckets in the first. seems like once he sees one go in he is much looser.

[Birdman]

A win is a win especially on the road..let’s take game 7!!!!

[Redz]

Not that I’ve watched every superstar play every game in the history of the league, but I can’t remember a first team all nba level guy (who’s know as a scorer) have so many complete disappearing acts -  escoecially in crucial games. 

He’s also had a bunch of huge games too.

I want to love Tatum like I loved Bird.  I really do.  He could be that guy.  But man the disappearing acts are so tough.

[gouki88]

Not that I’ve watched every superstar play every game in the history of the league, but I can’t remember a first team all nba level guy (who’s know as a scorer) have so many complete disappearing acts -  escoecially in crucial games. 

He’s also had a bunch of huge games too.

I want to love Tatum like I loved Bird.  I really do.  He could be that guy.  But man the disappearing acts are so tough.

You don't need to look very hard.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01/gamelog-playoffs/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog-playoffs/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog-playoffs/

Filtering by ascending game score reveals plenty of genuinely terrible games. Kobe is a very natural comparison for me.

[Kernewek]

It’s easy to get frustrated with guys like Tatum because sometimes, especially because they have somewhat passive personalities, it seems like they are cruising or don’t care or are jacking up bad shots or whatever. Send him a message thst he sucks and sit the barstard that’ll learn him to be casual! But it’s all relative - it only works if you have someone who can replace the production at the level of consistency thst you want Tatum to have in the first place. And not only that, who has the mental fortitude to perform in the pressure of the playoffs and who has the gravity to attract the kind of defensive attention that a star like Tatum attracts. As bad as Tatum has shot he still attracts traps and doubles that free up other players.

Ultimately you could ask the question - who would be happier if we sat Tatum, his own team or the opposing team? If we sat Tatum for the Game 7 decider I think Doc Rivers would think all his Christmases had come at once 

I can see where Mahk is coming from, he’s probably frustrated at the underperformance of a team that a lot of fans here think should be winning by 20+ each game but instead each game has been a struggle, and Tatums struggles have been a highlight. But sitting a guy who is still providing 25ppg, 10rpg and 5apg probably creates bigger problems than it solves.

Very good post.

As far as superstars and bad games, the game tonight reminded me a bit of Jordan* in the 1997 ECF - when he went 2-22 over three quarters in a pretty ugly loss to Miami. Still wound up with a 20 point fourth quarter, but I remember being absolutely shocked at how badly MJ was performing on the big stage in that game, and furiously hoping that the fourth quarter comeback would result in a Bulls win:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705260MIA.html


*Jordan, obviously, is a solid tier or two above Tatum, but as far as disastrous shooting performances, this is what I went to first. That said, we're in a series against a team with James Harden, who's no stranger to shirking under bright lights.

[gouki88]

It’s easy to get frustrated with guys like Tatum because sometimes, especially because they have somewhat passive personalities, it seems like they are cruising or don’t care or are jacking up bad shots or whatever. Send him a message thst he sucks and sit the barstard that’ll learn him to be casual! But it’s all relative - it only works if you have someone who can replace the production at the level of consistency thst you want Tatum to have in the first place. And not only that, who has the mental fortitude to perform in the pressure of the playoffs and who has the gravity to attract the kind of defensive attention that a star like Tatum attracts. As bad as Tatum has shot he still attracts traps and doubles that free up other players.

Ultimately you could ask the question - who would be happier if we sat Tatum, his own team or the opposing team? If we sat Tatum for the Game 7 decider I think Doc Rivers would think all his Christmases had come at once 

I can see where Mahk is coming from, he’s probably frustrated at the underperformance of a team that a lot of fans here think should be winning by 20+ each game but instead each game has been a struggle, and Tatums struggles have been a highlight. But sitting a guy who is still providing 25ppg, 10rpg and 5apg probably creates bigger problems than it solves.

Very good post.

As far as superstars and bad games, the game tonight reminded me a bit of Jordan* in the 1997 ECF - when he went 2-22 over three quarters in a pretty ugly loss to Miami. Still wound up with a 20 point fourth quarter, but I remember being absolutely shocked at how badly MJ was performing on the big stage in that game, and furiously hoping that the fourth quarter comeback would result in a Bulls win:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705260MIA.html


*Jordan, obviously, is a solid tier or two above Tatum, but as far as disastrous shooting performances, this is what I went to first. That said, we're in a series against a team with James Harden, who's no stranger to shirking under bright lights.

Jordan had a fantastic ability to will himself into damaging the opponent through foul shots, even if he was bricking. Tatum has improved there, but if he could draw fouls like MJ he would be even better

[Redz]

Not that I’ve watched every superstar play every game in the history of the league, but I can’t remember a first team all nba level guy (who’s know as a scorer) have so many complete disappearing acts -  escoecially in crucial games. 

He’s also had a bunch of huge games too.

I want to love Tatum like I loved Bird.  I really do.  He could be that guy.  But man the disappearing acts are so tough.

You don't need to look very hard.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01/gamelog-playoffs/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog-playoffs/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog-playoffs/

Filtering by ascending game score reveals plenty of genuinely terrible games. Kobe is a very natural comparison for me.

I guess there's stuff that doesn't show up in the box score too.  In this regard, I'd buy Durant more than Kobe, for disappearing.

And don't get me wrong.  I love Tatum as a Celtic.  I just want to love him more.

Only way to get there is to get a ring I guess. 

[ChillyWilly]

Tatum with 4 minutes left

[Donoghus]

Oops