Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Goldstar88]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

[Roy H.]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

[Vermont Green]

Current BOS vs. current HOU, the current BOS teams gives up fewer points than HOU (108.1 to 108.7) and the DRtg is 109.4 HOU and 109.6 BOS.

These are not mutually exclusive or zero-sum.  Udoka coached the team well to get to the finals in 2021-22 (4th in CotY).  Mazzulla coached well to get the team to a title in 2023-24 (4th in CotY).  I think most teams would be happy with either.

[Goldstar88]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

That was their rotation game 1, which they won. Again, that roster was good enough. Maybe it was just Ime that wasn?t.

Edit* Brogdon was hurt. Still a good enough roster.

[Roy H.]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

That was their rotation game 1, which they won. Again, that roster was good enough. Maybe it was just Ime that wasn?t.

Still incorrect.  You might want to check that list again.

[Roy H.]

Brogdon wasn't on the team.

[Goldstar88]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

That was their rotation game 1, which they won. Again, that roster was good enough. Maybe it was just Ime that wasn?t.

Still incorrect.  You might want to check that list again.

Even without Brogdon, they had enough. Ime just wasn?t good enough.

[Roy H.]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

That was their rotation game 1, which they won. Again, that roster was good enough. Maybe it was just Ime that wasn?t.

Still incorrect.  You might want to check that list again.

Even without Brogdon, they had enough. Ime just wasn?t good enough.

And Joe did even less with more.  So extra not good enough?

But ultimately, it's useless to debate with somebody who thought that Ime had Brogdon on the team, you know?  The profound lack of knowledge just undercuts even the most basic of reasoning and makes the argument silly.  🤷🏻‍♂️

[wdleehi]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

That was their rotation game 1, which they won. Again, that roster was good enough. Maybe it was just Ime that wasn?t.

Still incorrect.  You might want to check that list again.

Even without Brogdon, they had enough. Ime just wasn?t good enough.

And Joe did even less with more.  So extra not good enough?

But ultimately, it's useless to debate with somebody who thought that Ime had Brogdon on the team, you know?  The profound lack of knowledge just undercuts even the most basic of reasoning and makes the argument silly.  🤷🏻‍♂️

Joe did more.  Title vs. no title.

You keep ignoring Joe's first year was ruined because the previous coach was fired right before the season began because of an unprofessional actions.   

I rather have the coach who won the title then the coach that may have won a title if he didn't ruin his job here.

[SparzWizard]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

That was their rotation game 1, which they won. Again, that roster was good enough. Maybe it was just Ime that wasn?t.

Still incorrect.  You might want to check that list again.

Even without Brogdon, they had enough. Ime just wasn?t good enough.

That was Jaylen Brown and/or the Celtics players turning the ball over 10+ times each game spelling recipe for disaster. That series loss was on the players choking. Ime may have his flaws, but that wasn't on Ime.

2024's win was on acquiring Jrue Holiday and some benefits of injuries from other teams and Denver losing. But let's talk 2023, where they trailed 3-2 against the 76ers and 0-3 against the Heat where they shouldn't have been trailing in either series being the superior team. They had trouble putting the Hawks away in the first-round which should have never went past 5 games. Those were on mostly Joe and some on Smart.

[Roy H.]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Imes rotation in the Finals: Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, R-Williams with a bench of D-White, Brogdon, Pritchard, Hauser, Theis and G-Will.

That roster was good enough to win the Finals.

Try again?

That was their rotation game 1, which they won. Again, that roster was good enough. Maybe it was just Ime that wasn?t.

Still incorrect.  You might want to check that list again.

Even without Brogdon, they had enough. Ime just wasn?t good enough.

And Joe did even less with more.  So extra not good enough?

But ultimately, it's useless to debate with somebody who thought that Ime had Brogdon on the team, you know?  The profound lack of knowledge just undercuts even the most basic of reasoning and makes the argument silly.  🤷🏻‍♂️

Joe did more.  Title vs. no title.

You keep ignoring Joe's first year was ruined because the previous coach was fired right before the season began because of an unprofessional actions.   

I rather have the coach who won the title then the coach that may have won a title if he didn't ruin his job here.

I'm not sure what happened to reading comprehension on this blog?

This is getting silly. What fanbase prefers the coach that loses the championship vs winning the championship? The same guy that lost the championship was being a creep with a younger woman at work, putting his team's future chances of a championship at risk.

What is the likable trait that I'm missing?

Look at the complete picture.

Last year of Brad:  .500 team, 1st round playoff loss
Only year of Ime:  No personnel changes; Finals appearance; dominant run from January through April
First year of Joe:  Add 6MOY; Net Rtg decreases from prior year; lose in ECF to #8 seed
Second year of Joe:  Add Porzingis, Jrue, Charles Lee, Sam Cassell, JVG; 64 wins, cruise to championship
Third year of Joe:  No personnel changes; disappointing regular season; playoffs TBD

All you can really say is that Ime's team performed better than Joe's team performed in their first seasons.  The Celts went further with a lesser team.  Those are facts.  It's also true that Ime had more time to prepare.  Ime was hired on June 23, 2021.  Joe took over around September 22, 2022.  Ime built his own staff; Joe inherited his assistant coaches.  Those are also facts.

Anything after their first year is an extrapolation.  Joe has gone on to tremendous success while being provided with superb personnel and a first class coaching staff; Ime has the Rockets playing over their heads.

It's fair for fans to have an opinion that Ime is better, because he's done more with less.  It's fair for fans to have an opinion that Joe is better, because he won a title.

What's probably unfair is the strawman arguments that led people (you) to resurrect this thread and to continually post in it, claiming imaginary grievances.

As always, please don't quote people's argument if you're going to get it wrong.  It's better to not jump into an existing conversation and start alleging things that aren't true.

[mobilija]

How about this:

Ime with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, losses in the finals

Joe with a full offseason to plan and his own coaching staff, wins in the finals. 


Ime's "successful one season" win % < Joe's (3rd season) "disappointing season" win %

Sure, in a world where rosters don't matter at all.

Why make comparisons at all then? When have 2 coaches had the exact same rosters n separate years?

It?s not like Ime didn?t have talent to work with. Most of the big pieces were the same. Rob Williams at his best was a huge difference maker, an absolute ceiling raiser.

Joe got a lesser Timelord, a better Derrick White, and Malcolm Brogdon.  He had more to work with than Ime in his first year, and lost to a #8 seed. 

Comparing Joe's roster with KP and Jrue and saying they've got a better record than Ime did is a silly, meaningless argument.

I?m not sure Joe had a better roster his first year than Ime did. To me, good Timelord > bad Timelord and Brogdon. A healthy RWill was an absolute difference maker, on a gimpy knee he was average at best, Brogdon doesn?t make up that difference. A better White for sure but also a much worse version of Smart. Smart had his best year by a mile under Ime, it?s been down hill ever since. GWill dissolved Joes 1st year as well. Horford prolly stayed steady. Pritchard got no minutes as a result of Brogdon?s arrival making Brogdon more of a net negative on the team. Hauser, I don?t recall much difference, he blossomed last year. Brown and Tatum, prolly better versions a year older, I think Tatum made a leap that year but Brown didn?t make his leap till last year. So, I don?t see those roster differences having that great of a talent disparity. What was different about the roster that was a lack of happiness and focus. Several players, namely Smart and GWill and likely Brogdon, were malcontents. Locker room had a huge effect on that team. You can put some blame on Joe for not bringing them together but then you also have to blame Ime for breaking it in the 1st place.

All that being said, if you have to place so much emphasis on the roster to swing an argument about who a better coach is then maybe it?s the roster that matters and not the coaches at all.

[Vermont Green]

I don't think it is fair to compare Mazzulla's first season with Udoka's first.  It clearly should be acknowledged that Mazzulla took over the team at the last minute of preseason and under clearly difficult circumstances.  Inherited assistant coaches that didn't want to be there.  The team was blindsided by the firing of a coach they liked, and in comes Mazzulla.

I see it as fair to say that Mazzulla had more talent in 2023-24 when they won the title than Udoka had in 2021-22 when they lost in the finals.  But I see it as both seasons were really good coaching jobs.  I don't think you can say that a coach that gets the team to the finals or wins in the finals is not a good coach.  So many people said that Tatum could never win a title.  He didn't playing for Udoka, did playing for Mazzulla.  Or that Brown and Tatum together were too similar and couldn't win a title.  Mazzulla got them there.

They probably win a title in 2023-24 with Udoka, but you don't know that.  They did win a title with Mazzulla.  It was a talented roster, but bringing in a bunch of new players is a test for a coach.  Mazzulla passed that test.  The reason that the team probably still wins the title in 2023-24 with Udoka is that the NBA is more about the players than the coach.  When is the last time Popovich won a title?  How is Spoelsta doing without good players?  Kerr continues but is it him or the players?

[droopdog7]

What the heck is this argument about?  Joe has a title and Ime doesn't.  Game. Set. Match.

End of story.

[Roy H.]

All that being said, if you have to place so much emphasis on the roster to swing an argument about who a better coach is then maybe it?s the roster that matters and not the coaches at all.

This is an odd argument in the present context.

Of course, teams with better players should win more.  But if a coach fall short, despite having more talent, that says something about the coaching. And if the next coach improves the team despite a similar amount of talent, it also says something about the coaching.

What is meaningless is looking at a team that made huge talent upgrades that then goes farther, and arguing "this coach is better because he won a title".  That's not an intellectually honest argument.