Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[tenn_smoothie]

Tonite's loss to a Denver team, which was also struggling from the 3-point line, is exactly the issue that CS critics of Joe are trying to point out to his apologists - it's great when the team is cruising thru stretches of regular season success (and not totally insignificant). But I am viewing this team thru the perspective of how what we are seeing now is going to succeed or not succeed in the playoffs, which is a completely different animal. There is new reason for hope this season due to personnel additions/subtractions which have produced obvious improvements in performance. But there are still repetitive nagging problems that can - and do - lead to losses in the more significant games.

You might point out some quality wins this year, which I gladly applaud. Problem is most of our quality wins are a result of red-hot shooting which cannot be sustained (by any team) throughout a long playoff season, which has the added dimension of opposing coaches having multiple games and additional time to adjust defensive schemes to attack our offensive strengths.

Then what are we left with ? Joe and his awful 3-point iso offense and another playoff exit for our very talented, very one-dimensional team.

[angryguy77]

Tonite's loss to a Denver team, which was also struggling from the 3-point line, is exactly the issue that CS critics of Joe are trying to point out to his apologists - it's great when the team is cruising thru stretches of regular season success (and not totally insignificant). But I am viewing this team thru the perspective of how what we are seeing now is going to succeed or not succeed in the playoffs, which is a completely different animal. There is new reason for hope this season due to personnel additions/subtractions which have produced obvious improvements in performance. But there are still repetitive nagging problems that can - and do - lead to losses in the more significant games.

You might point out some quality wins this year, which I gladly applaud. Problem is most of our quality wins are a result of red-hot shooting which cannot be sustained (by any team) throughout a long playoff season, which has the added dimension of opposing coaches having multiple games and additional time to adjust defensive schemes to attack our offensive strengths.

Then what are we left with ? Joe and his awful 3-point iso offense and another playoff exit for our very talented, very one-dimensional team.

Been trying to say that, not as well as you did here.

I've said this a couple times, but there were a couple instances al gave up a layup and passed for a 3 that we missed. If he scores instead we probably win. The mentality of this team is broken. As soon as they get pressure on defense at the 3, they just lose composure. Why is Joe not having guys cut when that happens?

I say this in all seriousness, I don't think he knows any other offensive scheme besides chucking 3's.

This team has way too much talent to be reliant on it as much as they are. We're over the cap and if they don't win it all its a massive fail. Imo it would be one of the biggest chokes in all of sports.

[DocomoCelts]

Tonite's loss to a Denver team, which was also struggling from the 3-point line, is exactly the issue that CS critics of Joe are trying to point out to his apologists - it's great when the team is cruising thru stretches of regular season success (and not totally insignificant). But I am viewing this team thru the perspective of how what we are seeing now is going to succeed or not succeed in the playoffs, which is a completely different animal. There is new reason for hope this season due to personnel additions/subtractions which have produced obvious improvements in performance. But there are still repetitive nagging problems that can - and do - lead to losses in the more significant games.

You might point out some quality wins this year, which I gladly applaud. Problem is most of our quality wins are a result of red-hot shooting which cannot be sustained (by any team) throughout a long playoff season, which has the added dimension of opposing coaches having multiple games and additional time to adjust defensive schemes to attack our offensive strengths.

Then what are we left with ? Joe and his awful 3-point iso offense and another playoff exit for our very talented, very one-dimensional team.

Completely agree with what you've said, but I guess we will see end of this season.  Hope this take turns out wrong, of course, and Joe and the team finds new levels in the playoffs to sort out their numerous recurring problems.

[Stig]

A loss like this hurts, even we win the next few. Denver just exposed us in one of the most anticipated game of the year. Loss like this is why people don’t fear the celtics.

[SparzWizard]

A loss like this hurts, even we win the next few. Denver just exposed us in one of the most anticipated game of the year. Loss like this is why people don’t fear the celtics.

Literally just challenge them to shoot 3's. Can they sustain perfect 3's for 7 games? Obviously not. Oh okay, take away that 3-point threat and they have nothing to bank on. Tatum ISOs? JB handles? Pass ball to Zinger? Teams will being exploiting that. They know JT and JB will fold when it counts most.

Denver just revealed the keys on how to beat Boston when future teams face us. They got the game tape to review to. But ofc, teams can also look back at last year's Miami series too. Outcoaching Joe, even a caveman can do it.

[tenn_smoothie]

Tonite's loss to a Denver team, which was also struggling from the 3-point line, is exactly the issue that CS critics of Joe are trying to point out to his apologists - it's great when the team is cruising thru stretches of regular season success (and not totally insignificant). But I am viewing this team thru the perspective of how what we are seeing now is going to succeed or not succeed in the playoffs, which is a completely different animal. There is new reason for hope this season due to personnel additions/subtractions which have produced obvious improvements in performance. But there are still repetitive nagging problems that can - and do - lead to losses in the more significant games.

You might point out some quality wins this year, which I gladly applaud. Problem is most of our quality wins are a result of red-hot shooting which cannot be sustained (by any team) throughout a long playoff season, which has the added dimension of opposing coaches having multiple games and additional time to adjust defensive schemes to attack our offensive strengths.

Then what are we left with ? Joe and his awful 3-point iso offense and another playoff exit for our very talented, very one-dimensional team.

Been trying to say that, not as well as you did here.

I've said this a couple times, but there were a couple instances al gave up a layup and passed for a 3 that we missed. If he scores instead we probably win. The mentality of this team is broken. As soon as they get pressure on defense at the 3, they just lose composure. Why is Joe not having guys cut when that happens?

I say this in all seriousness, I don't think he knows any other offensive scheme besides chucking 3's.

This team has way too much talent to be reliant on it as much as they are. We're over the cap and if they don't win it all its a massive fail. Imo it would be one of the biggest chokes in all of sports.

Yes, there is a group of us here that have all been trying to say this.
But we are dismissed as negative fans who cannot be pleased.
We can be pleased quite easily, by seeing this team play the right way led by a knowledgeable coach who adapts and plays to his team's strengths.
I can't quite fathom that a coach who has reached this level of his profession simply not having the requisite basketball knowledge to identify and then make adjustments to obvious failing schemes. What is going thru the guy's head during games like last nite ? The worst part to me is watching another prime season of the league's most storied franchise possibly end with the team going home empty-handed yet again.

[GetLucky]

Joe is the best coach the Celtics have had in decades. I'm not worried.

Off night for Tatum and Brown and Joker and Murray were red hot. 2 point losses happen to good teams.

[CelticSooner]

Tonite's loss to a Denver team, which was also struggling from the 3-point line, is exactly the issue that CS critics of Joe are trying to point out to his apologists - it's great when the team is cruising thru stretches of regular season success (and not totally insignificant). But I am viewing this team thru the perspective of how what we are seeing now is going to succeed or not succeed in the playoffs, which is a completely different animal. There is new reason for hope this season due to personnel additions/subtractions which have produced obvious improvements in performance. But there are still repetitive nagging problems that can - and do - lead to losses in the more significant games.

You might point out some quality wins this year, which I gladly applaud. Problem is most of our quality wins are a result of red-hot shooting which cannot be sustained (by any team) throughout a long playoff season, which has the added dimension of opposing coaches having multiple games and additional time to adjust defensive schemes to attack our offensive strengths.

Then what are we left with ? Joe and his awful 3-point iso offense and another playoff exit for our very talented, very one-dimensional team.

Been trying to say that, not as well as you did here.

I've said this a couple times, but there were a couple instances al gave up a layup and passed for a 3 that we missed. If he scores instead we probably win. The mentality of this team is broken. As soon as they get pressure on defense at the 3, they just lose composure. Why is Joe not having guys cut when that happens?

I say this in all seriousness, I don't think he knows any other offensive scheme besides chucking 3's.

This team has way too much talent to be reliant on it as much as they are. We're over the cap and if they don't win it all its a massive fail. Imo it would be one of the biggest chokes in all of sports.

Yes, there is a group of us here that have all been trying to say this.
But we are dismissed as negative fans who cannot be pleased.
We can be pleased quite easily, by seeing this team play the right way led by a knowledgeable coach who adapts and plays to his team's strengths.
I can't quite fathom that a coach who has reached this level of his profession simply not having the requisite basketball knowledge to identify and then make adjustments to obvious failing schemes. What is going thru the guy's head during games like last nite ? The worst part to me is watching another prime season of the league's most storied franchise possibly end with the team going home empty-handed yet again.

What new quip he was going to throw at Washburn.

[SparzWizard]

Joe is the best coach the Celtics have had in decades. I'm not worried.

Off night for Tatum and Brown and Joker and Murray were red hot. 2 point losses happen to good teams.

That's a reach lol. Better than the 70s and 80s coaches? Ime was the better coach these guys have had. Joe should be thankful of Tatum, Brown, and Porzingis for carrying him.

[Goldstar88]

Joe is the best coach the Celtics have had in decades. I'm not worried.

Off night for Tatum and Brown and Joker and Murray were red hot. 2 point losses happen to good teams.

That's a reach lol. Better than the 70s and 80s coaches? Ime was the better coach these guys have had. Joe should be thankful of Tatum, Brown, and Porzingis for carrying him.

He really wasn’t, though. C’s were extremely lucky to get by Miami in the postseason and they got embarrassed in the Finals. Udoka was basically out coached every round after the first series. Look at what Ime is doing in Houston right now. Rockets are 2 games under .500 with one of the worst offenses in the league. Defense is good, not great. Just inside the top 10.

[Neurotic Guy]

Tonite's loss to a Denver team, which was also struggling from the 3-point line, is exactly the issue that CS critics of Joe are trying to point out to his apologists - it's great when the team is cruising thru stretches of regular season success (and not totally insignificant). But I am viewing this team thru the perspective of how what we are seeing now is going to succeed or not succeed in the playoffs, which is a completely different animal. There is new reason for hope this season due to personnel additions/subtractions which have produced obvious improvements in performance. But there are still repetitive nagging problems that can - and do - lead to losses in the more significant games.

You might point out some quality wins this year, which I gladly applaud. Problem is most of our quality wins are a result of red-hot shooting which cannot be sustained (by any team) throughout a long playoff season, which has the added dimension of opposing coaches having multiple games and additional time to adjust defensive schemes to attack our offensive strengths.

Then what are we left with ? Joe and his awful 3-point iso offense and another playoff exit for our very talented, very one-dimensional team.

Been trying to say that, not as well as you did here.

I've said this a couple times, but there were a couple instances al gave up a layup and passed for a 3 that we missed. If he scores instead we probably win. The mentality of this team is broken. As soon as they get pressure on defense at the 3, they just lose composure. Why is Joe not having guys cut when that happens?

I say this in all seriousness, I don't think he knows any other offensive scheme besides chucking 3's.

This team has way too much talent to be reliant on it as much as they are. We're over the cap and if they don't win it all its a massive fail. Imo it would be one of the biggest chokes in all of sports.

Yes, there is a group of us here that have all been trying to say this.
But we are dismissed as negative fans who cannot be pleased.
We can be pleased quite easily, by seeing this team play the right way led by a knowledgeable coach who adapts and plays to his team's strengths.
I can't quite fathom that a coach who has reached this level of his profession simply not having the requisite basketball knowledge to identify and then make adjustments to obvious failing schemes. What is going thru the guy's head during games like last nite ? The worst part to me is watching another prime season of the league's most storied franchise possibly end with the team going home empty-handed yet again.

But I think everyone sees your point. It’s just that it would be a better point if the team wasn’t 32-10 and 20-1 at home.  Of course all of us are concerned about losing another prime Jays season. I certainly am. But they are playing regular season ball right now because that’s what this is. And they are playing better regular season ball than anyone else in the league. Of course there are concerns - I haven’t heard anyone here say that the 3-point focus feels good. But it’s working pretty well in terms of the most important regular season statistic.  Joe seems better to me overall than last year and he’s growing. Maybe fast enough, maybe not. Team has bounced back all season (a positive sign that I couldn’t say was true last regular season), we’ll see how they do in the next two weeks.

[Yuckabuck33]

Joe is the best coach the Celtics have had in decades. I'm not worried.

Off night for Tatum and Brown and Joker and Murray were red hot. 2 point losses happen to good teams.

That's a reach lol. Better than the 70s and 80s coaches? Ime was the better coach these guys have had. Joe should be thankful of Tatum, Brown, and Porzingis for carrying him.

He really wasn’t, though. C’s were extremely lucky to get by Miami in the postseason and they got embarrassed in the Finals. Udoka was basically out coached every round after the first series. Look at what Ime is doing in Houston right now. Rockets are 2 games under .500 with one of the worst offenses in the league. Defense is good, not great. Just inside the top 10.

This is ridiculous. So what if the C's were extremely lucky to get by Miami? They still did. You could say Joe was extremely lucky the C's got to game 7 of the ECF against Miami and then got embarrassed and eliminated short of the Finals.

[green_bballers13]

If the Celtics lose to the Nuggets in the Finals, should we scapegoat the coach, or blame the players when shots don't fall? Or maybe a little of both?

[Phantom255x]

The Jays shot poorly last night and we lost by 2.

Mazzulla wasn't perfect but at some point you kind of have to look at the players too. Some of these guys including the Jays have also choked or shot poorly during the Brad Stevens and Ime Udoka years. This isn't really new. There's never gonna be a perfect coach. As @nickagneta used to say, the players need to perform and execute too.

Tatum choked in the 2022 Finals. Jaylen has had some mediocre stretches over the last two postseasons as well. Brad Stevens has done his best to supplement them, but the Jays are gonna have to perform against these same kinds of teams to win Banner 18. If Jaylen can't dribble or turns it over a ton, or the Jays simply shoot poorly but don't adjust, then it's gonna be the same story.

If you replaced Mazzulla right now with Sam Cassell, what major changes do people here honestly expect?

I do agree the final shots need to be better and it can't be just Tatum. Design some open looks for other guys. But just talking about the whole game, it's hard to win when the Jays shoot poorly while Jokic + Murray go off. No coach is gonna overcome that and the C's nearly did last night. 

[Indocelts]

If I were DW/KP/JH, what whould I feel seeing Tatum firing blanks on those final shots this season?

Would I be OK? Mad? Indifference?

I believe that they feel ready to assume the great responsibility of taking those shots. But seeing Joe stubbornly choosing Tatum, although the result indicates otherwise, I'm afraid will erode those players' confidence in Joe a little bit.

This is another aspect that Joe must consider.

PS: I exclude JB because of his FT issue.