Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Roy H.]

This thread has become a bit of a joke.  28-7, .800 winning percentage.

You don't like the title of the thread. There are plenty of people defending Joe.

I think 60% of the comments in this thread are sarcastic drivebys, or people complaining about the thread existing.  Another 35% are from last year's playoffs, when even the players and Wyc were pretty upset with Joe.

But, I modified the title so that people can stop being so triggered.

[Kernewek]

There's been some good conversation, too. Same with it's spiritual successor (the Ime thread).

[Vermont Green]

Three coaches who have won titles.  Seems like a good place to start.

Joe looked terrible in last year's playoffs.  Winning regular season games means nothing.  Hopefully he'll do better this year.

Did he?  Or did a bunch of MIA career bench players step in and shoot 50% from 3?  And then Tatum hurt his ankle and missed game 7.  I guess that is all people have left to criticize, yeah sure, the team has the best record, and he was voted coach of the month, but we didn't win the championship last season so he should be fired?

Do you really think the team would be better served by Nurse or Rivers or some else?  Even if you stretch this, are there 5 coaches you think are better?  10?

[ozgod]

This thread has become a bit of a joke.  28-7, .800 winning percentage.

You don't like the title of the thread. There are plenty of people defending Joe.

I think 60% of the comments in this thread are sarcastic drivebys, or people complaining about the thread existing.  Another 35% are from last year's playoffs, when even the players and Wyc were pretty upset with Joe.

But, I modified the title so that people can stop being so triggered.

The Ultimate Joe Compendium...I don't know if any coach of the Celtics has broken 100 pages like he has 

[Donoghus]

This thread has become a bit of a joke.  28-7, .800 winning percentage.

You don't like the title of the thread. There are plenty of people defending Joe.

I think 60% of the comments in this thread are sarcastic drivebys, or people complaining about the thread existing.  Another 35% are from last year's playoffs, when even the players and Wyc were pretty upset with Joe.

But, I modified the title so that people can stop being so triggered.

The Ultimate Joe Compendium...I don't know if any coach of the Celtics has broken 100 pages like he has 

He's definitely up there.

I wish I could go back to pre-Accidental Purge but there was a TON of stuff on Doc pre title too.

[Roy H.]

This thread has become a bit of a joke.  28-7, .800 winning percentage.

You don't like the title of the thread. There are plenty of people defending Joe.

I think 60% of the comments in this thread are sarcastic drivebys, or people complaining about the thread existing.  Another 35% are from last year's playoffs, when even the players and Wyc were pretty upset with Joe.

But, I modified the title so that people can stop being so triggered.

The Ultimate Joe Compendium...I don't know if any coach of the Celtics has broken 100 pages like he has 

He's definitely up there.

I wish I could go back to pre-Accidental Purge but there was a TON of stuff on Doc pre title too.

Pre-KG, Doc was pretty hated, yeah.  It inspired wdleehi's signature / avatar, among other takes.

Doc was a good coach for a team of veterans, but the real difference on that coaching staff will always be Thibs. 

[Roy H.]

Three coaches who have won titles.  Seems like a good place to start.

Joe looked terrible in last year's playoffs.  Winning regular season games means nothing.  Hopefully he'll do better this year.

Did he?  Or did a bunch of MIA career bench players step in and shoot 50% from 3?  And then Tatum hurt his ankle and missed game 7.  I guess that is all people have left to criticize, yeah sure, the team has the best record, and he was voted coach of the month, but we didn't win the championship last season so he should be fired?

Do you really think the team would be better served by Nurse or Rivers or some else?  Even if you stretch this, are there 5 coaches you think are better?  10?

I don't really think regular season wins matter a whole lot.  I think that my daughter's middle school coach would probably win 55 games with this roster, particularly if Cassell and Lee were on the staff.  Maybe 60.

And yes, he was lousy in the playoffs.  It wasn't just against the Heat, either.  Bad rotations, bad timeout usage,bad play calls, the team not looking prepared, Smart drawing up plays in practice and saying Joe was "rightfully" criticized, Wyc yelling at Joe on the sideline, etc. I'd encourage you to read back through this thread, the game threads, the contemporaneous media reports, etc.

----------------------

Regarding his staff, Mazzulla identified some of the things he delegates:

"Does [the COTM award] mean something to me? In the past, I probably would have said no. But I think it's a testament to what we're building and what we're creating. So, it's a testament to the staff. I wish they would change it to Staff of the Month because I'm not doing it by myself. I'm not the one controlling the scouts. I'm not the one making the edits. I'm not the one doing the matchups during the game or coming up with lineup suggestions. So, that's the entire staff.

[Vermont Green]

Three coaches who have won titles.  Seems like a good place to start.

Joe looked terrible in last year's playoffs.  Winning regular season games means nothing.  Hopefully he'll do better this year.

Did he?  Or did a bunch of MIA career bench players step in and shoot 50% from 3?  And then Tatum hurt his ankle and missed game 7.  I guess that is all people have left to criticize, yeah sure, the team has the best record, and he was voted coach of the month, but we didn't win the championship last season so he should be fired?

Do you really think the team would be better served by Nurse or Rivers or some else?  Even if you stretch this, are there 5 coaches you think are better?  10?

I don't really think regular season wins matter a whole lot.  I think that my daughter's middle school coach would probably win 55 games with this roster, particularly if Cassell and Lee were on the staff.  Maybe 60.

And yes, he was lousy in the playoffs.  It wasn't just against the Heat, either.  Bad rotations, bad timeout usage,bad play calls, the team not looking prepared, Smart drawing up plays in practice and saying Joe was "rightfully" criticized, Wyc yelling at Joe on the sideline, etc. I'd encourage you to read back through this thread, the game threads, the contemporaneous media reports, etc.

----------------------

Regarding his staff, Mazzulla identified some of the things he delegates:

"Does [the COTM award] mean something to me? In the past, I probably would have said no. But I think it's a testament to what we're building and what we're creating. So, it's a testament to the staff. I wish they would change it to Staff of the Month because I'm not doing it by myself. I'm not the one controlling the scouts. I'm not the one making the edits. I'm not the one doing the matchups during the game or coming up with lineup suggestions. So, that's the entire staff.

So was Mazzulla "Terrible" or "lousy" in the playoffs or was the issue what was left of the assistant coaches?  It is impossible to specifically quantify how a coach did in a given playoff series, everyone can have their own opinion, I remain unconvinced that Mazzulla was the reason or even the primary we lost to MIA.

[Roy H.]

Three coaches who have won titles.  Seems like a good place to start.

Joe looked terrible in last year's playoffs.  Winning regular season games means nothing.  Hopefully he'll do better this year.

Did he?  Or did a bunch of MIA career bench players step in and shoot 50% from 3?  And then Tatum hurt his ankle and missed game 7.  I guess that is all people have left to criticize, yeah sure, the team has the best record, and he was voted coach of the month, but we didn't win the championship last season so he should be fired?

Do you really think the team would be better served by Nurse or Rivers or some else?  Even if you stretch this, are there 5 coaches you think are better?  10?

I don't really think regular season wins matter a whole lot.  I think that my daughter's middle school coach would probably win 55 games with this roster, particularly if Cassell and Lee were on the staff.  Maybe 60.

And yes, he was lousy in the playoffs.  It wasn't just against the Heat, either.  Bad rotations, bad timeout usage,bad play calls, the team not looking prepared, Smart drawing up plays in practice and saying Joe was "rightfully" criticized, Wyc yelling at Joe on the sideline, etc. I'd encourage you to read back through this thread, the game threads, the contemporaneous media reports, etc.

----------------------

Regarding his staff, Mazzulla identified some of the things he delegates:

"Does [the COTM award] mean something to me? In the past, I probably would have said no. But I think it's a testament to what we're building and what we're creating. So, it's a testament to the staff. I wish they would change it to Staff of the Month because I'm not doing it by myself. I'm not the one controlling the scouts. I'm not the one making the edits. I'm not the one doing the matchups during the game or coming up with lineup suggestions. So, that's the entire staff.

So was Mazzulla "Terrible" or "lousy" in the playoffs or was the issue what was left of the assistant coaches?  It is impossible to specifically quantify how a coach did in a given playoff series, everyone can have their own opinion, I remain unconvinced that Mazzulla was the reason or even the primary we lost to MIA.

Why is the standard that the coach needs to be the primary reason a team loses before he should be fired?  If the coach handicaps the team even a little, an upgrade should be sought.

But, since you seem to disagree:  what do you think Joe did well last year in the playoffs?  What was he better at than a replacement level NBA coach?

[Kernewek]

I enjoyed his rapport with the media. I seem to remember that you did, as well. 

[SparzWizard]

Any real ones would know Tatum and Kristaps are carrying Joe behind it all. Joe should buy them each a car or something.

I'll change my tune if we win banner 18 this year. Still regular season, a lot can happen. 3-4 game losing streaks happen with every team, and knock on wood, we haven't had a skid yet.

Fact of the matter is, we was down 0-3 against the 8th seed last year and Marcus Smart and some others have called him out, and rightfully so.

[mobilija]

Any real ones would know Tatum and Kristaps are carrying Joe behind it all. Joe should buy them each a car or something.

I'll change my tune if we win banner 18 this year. Still regular season, a lot can happen. 3-4 game losing streaks happen with every team, and knock on wood, we haven't had a skid yet.

Fact of the matter is, we was down 0-3 against the 8th seed last year and Marcus Smart and some others have called him out, and rightfully so.

Why does that make Joe the problem and not Smart? Brad shipped Smart out, Joe is still here…

[Yuckabuck33]

Any real ones would know Tatum and Kristaps are carrying Joe behind it all. Joe should buy them each a car or something.

I'll change my tune if we win banner 18 this year. Still regular season, a lot can happen. 3-4 game losing streaks happen with every team, and knock on wood, we haven't had a skid yet.

Fact of the matter is, we was down 0-3 against the 8th seed last year and Marcus Smart and some others have called him out, and rightfully so.

   We talk about the Celtics being mentally tough or not, and I want to bring up something that I've mentioned before somewhere else here (I don't know how to search here). I am wondering if this is something that Joe is influencing or not.
   A psychologist did a study of optimism in sports, and used how a team functions after a loss as a significant marker. Mentally weak teams react to a loss by dropping the next 2 or 3 games, mentally strong teams lose too, but not in bunches. (His book, Learned Optimism, has a chapter on sports and he uses the 84 Celtics as an example.)
   This year's team has lost 2 in a row ONCE, in December. This is a championship winning mindset, and from what I hear Joe say in interviews I think he has a lot to do with this. (As does Tatum, Brown, Jrue, KP, and DWhite too.) If they can maintain that level of confidence, I expect Banner 18 this year.
   In contrast, the Bucks have dropped 2 in a row twice and the 76rs FOUR times. I predict that the Bucks will do better than we expect despite their lack of defense, though the way Giannis is talking recently has a chance to sink his team mentally. The 76rs will underachieve as they always do because they are mentally weak. (The exception is when they had the mentally strong Jimmy Butler, who is now a part of an exceptionally mentally strong team in Miami who will always overachieve relative to their talent.)

At this point I am giving credit to Joe for helping the team maintain an attitude that comes back hard after a defeat.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think I'm bad (or at least subpar) at evaluating coaches, because 1) I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and 2) I feel like teams generally go as far as their top-end players take them. I know that there are little details—ATOs, for example—that coaches heavily factor into, but I feel like championship teams have a lot more to do with the talent on the court.

[bdm860]

Three coaches who have won titles.  Seems like a good place to start.

Joe looked terrible in last year's playoffs.  Winning regular season games means nothing.  Hopefully he'll do better this year.

Did he?  Or did a bunch of MIA career bench players step in and shoot 50% from 3?  And then Tatum hurt his ankle and missed game 7.  I guess that is all people have left to criticize, yeah sure, the team has the best record, and he was voted coach of the month, but we didn't win the championship last season so he should be fired?

Do you really think the team would be better served by Nurse or Rivers or some else?  Even if you stretch this, are there 5 coaches you think are better?  10?

I don't really think regular season wins matter a whole lot.  I think that my daughter's middle school coach would probably win 55 games with this roster, particularly if Cassell and Lee were on the staff.  Maybe 60.

And yes, he was lousy in the playoffs.  It wasn't just against the Heat, either.  Bad rotations, bad timeout usage,bad play calls, the team not looking prepared, Smart drawing up plays in practice and saying Joe was "rightfully" criticized, Wyc yelling at Joe on the sideline, etc. I'd encourage you to read back through this thread, the game threads, the contemporaneous media reports, etc.

----------------------

Regarding his staff, Mazzulla identified some of the things he delegates:

"Does [the COTM award] mean something to me? In the past, I probably would have said no. But I think it's a testament to what we're building and what we're creating. So, it's a testament to the staff. I wish they would change it to Staff of the Month because I'm not doing it by myself. I'm not the one controlling the scouts. I'm not the one making the edits. I'm not the one doing the matchups during the game or coming up with lineup suggestions. So, that's the entire staff.

So was Mazzulla "Terrible" or "lousy" in the playoffs or was the issue what was left of the assistant coaches?  It is impossible to specifically quantify how a coach did in a given playoff series, everyone can have their own opinion, I remain unconvinced that Mazzulla was the reason or even the primary we lost to MIA.

Why is the standard that the coach needs to be the primary reason a team loses before he should be fired?  If the coach handicaps the team even a little, an upgrade should be sought.

But, since you seem to disagree:  what do you think Joe did well last year in the playoffs?  What was he better at than a replacement level NBA coach?

Joe seemed great at digging himself out of holes.  Down 3-2 to Philly and maybe a Tatum ankle sprain away from the 3-0 comeback vs Miami 


More seriously though, Joe seems to be pretty good at defense.

Credited with the 2022 team's D.  Brogdon said the players told him this last year.  And here's a tweet from March 2022 of an NBA trainer calling out Joe as the mastermind while Udoka was still firmly cemented as the teams coach (I think this is important because it's not a retroactive take trying to validate Joe becoming head coach).

There seemed to be several great adjustments during the Philly series last year:

He reinserted Rob Williams into the lineup (for White) down 3-2 to Philly (of course the counter is he should have been there all along, but then took him out again down 2-0 to Miami for White who was a positive factor in Boston's wins in Games 4-6).  Joe changed up the PnR coverage too.

Here's a Thinking Basketball video on the Celtics defensive adjustments vs Philly (Rob Williams and PnR coverage).

Another video demonstrating the Celtics changing PnR coverage.

Jared Weiss talking about a Smart adjustment in Game 6: "Just going back through the tape & this may be one of Marcus Smart's most vital defensive games of his life. They reworked their PnR scheme mid-game by moving his matchup around & changing the way they switched across the middle. Sixers didn't hit a single shot in crunch time."

Maybe just lip service, but this is Horford for Game 7 vs PHI : "Al Horford said Joe Mazzulla put together a good plan to put the Celtics in position to switch up coverages against Embiid and slow the 76ers down."  Embiid went 5-18 and Harden 3-11.


Here's a recent example of Joe's D schemes (and will be interested to see if they do this again tonight): Holiday playing the Center spot in Boston's 2-3 zone vs Indiana.




Really noticing this year how quickly assistants seem to sign with teams (happens when the playoffs are ongoing).  I really think the team/Joe was hamstrung with a lack of assistants last year.  The first unavoidable problem was that they went to the Finals in '22, so when the Jazz sign Hardy away, all quality replacements would have likely already been snatched up by the other 28 teams already eliminated.  Being down 1 quality  assistant wouldn't be a problem, but then the Udoka dismissal (and later Stoudemire leaving) exasperated it.  And it doesn't seem like there's quality coaches to poach mid-season.  C's look good so far, hopefully growth from Mazzulla and a full staff of assistants (and non-Udoka guys) and none of us have any complaints in June.