Tired of tatum not showing up

[Who]

These criticisms of Tatum listed on this thread remind me a lot of the Vince Carter years in Toronto. Similar issues.

Some of it was on point. Some of it was unfair.

I go back to the Jimmy Butler vs Tatum conversation above. Butler is always going to look more aggressive because he is a slasher by trade. He does not possess a great jump-shot merely an adequate one. Tatum in contrast is a jump-shooter first and a slasher second. He plays a more finesse game as a result. It is less physical, less aggressive, less attacks to the basket, less trips to the foul line.

This reminds of Vince because it was a similar situation with him in Toronto. Everyone saw the spectacular athleticism and wondered why he did not drive to the basket more often. Why does he take so many long jump-shots? why is he settling? Why doesn't he drive the ball like Kobe Bryant does? Like Michael Jordan did?

Well, Vince was always a jump-shooter first (as a star in the NBA) and a slasher second. He was always going to rely more heavily on his outside shot than taking it to the basket. He did not have that mentality.

This is what reminds me of Tatum. And like I said, some of this criticism is fair = Tatum does settle too much, he does take too many long jump shots and he does not drive the ball enough.

But some is also unfair = it lacks respect for Tatum's large contributions to the team & his individuality as a basketball player. He is not who we want him to be. But what he is ... is spectacular in it's own right.

Large sections of Raptors fans were turning on Vince even before he started to play badly and later asked for a trade. Largely because he was not who they thought he should be. Yet, Vince was still the best player Toronto had ever had up until that time (and the 2nd best behind Kawhi in their 25yr history). Vince was a top 10 player in the league. He was the guy that gave them the best chance of winning of any player on the team. He was one of the best players in league to build a team around and every fan-base around the rest of the league would have loved to have him.

[angryguy77]

Something else i want to get off my chest:

I think we intentionally let teams hang around after we've built a lead.

I think our guys do love to play, and they put up stats. So when we get a decent lead, the mindset is to conserve energy, take the foot off the pedal, then play hard again when the other team comes back.

Which is COMPLETELY BACKWARDS.

Why not just continue to play hard and push the gane out of reach, then rest while the bench finishes things off? Maybe because you can't accumulate stats sitting on the bench?

IMO Smart and Tatum are the ringleaders for this. Smart is great when the game is hanging in the balance. But he's awful when we're ahead. There have been so many games that should have been blowouts but stayed close due to sheer laziness.

Joe needs to start benching guys for complacency.

Honest question: how do we square this thinking with the reality that the other team is comprised of talented basketball players who are also trying to win the game?

Because it consistently happens to us. When a 30 pt lead makes you less comfortable than a 10 pt lead, it's telling.

tatum won't be the first, nore last of a a guy who has the sky as a limit, but doesn't get there because of having a weak mind. How many games has he willed them to win? GM 6 against the bucks last year is the only one I can think of. I'm not saying theres not others, but its the only one that really stands out.

IMO, he doesn't belong on a 1st team all NBA at this point in time.

I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating: watching the Celtics blow comfortable leads when playing against 'worse' teams is something that goes back to the end of the Big 3 era. It's hardly a new development for the team - and, in fact, it basically happens to every team in the NBA.

I'm fairly agnostic on Tatum, but he's pretty clearly the best player we've drafted since Pierce, and it's hard to think of a player that's had this type of career by 25 who didn't wind up with a ring or two (barring injury).

Yes  teams blow leads, but this team has a crazy amount of youth and talent to not be like other teams. Saying it's just a thing doesn't absolve them of playing lazy and down to their opponent. You can talk about stats and accolades all they want, but what matters is what he does when his team needs him most.

I brought it up last night, we need Tatum to be more like Butler. Look at the way Butler plays vs Tatum. Butler goes and takes it, Tatum fills a stat sheet by default followed with a presser that always ends in "I got to play better."

I agree with you to some degree, but I think it's important to acknowledge that the actual difference between Butler and Tatum is essentially just aesthetics - Butler has the same kind of insane competitive streak that shades MJ and Kobe, but he's not actually done all that much in the league except be 'pretty good'. Tatum's already more or less Butler's equivalent and he's, what, eight years younger?

It's not aesthetics. Butler can command the floor and take over. Kawahi, Dame are examples of dudes how just turn it up a notch. Tatum steps back for 3, or complains to the ref after a drive.

He's wasting prime years and it's a shame.

Again, not really disagreeing with you, but Jimmy Butler's career has essentially been a long succession of burnt bridges and first- and second- round exits (plus a bubble appearance in the Finals and one lone ECF appearance on top of that). He probably had the game of his life against Milwaukee, but overall he's just a fine basketball player? He looks like he plays hard, which is important for people, but he definitely hasn't had the success that Tatum has had as the best player on their respective teams.

I'm not comparing talent, tatum has more. I'm comparing leadership and being more than walking the ball up in crunch and settling for a bad 3. It has to stop.


Having all these accomplishments he has makes him look worse because he should be grown out of these habits by now.


I see a guy who showed more intensity and desire in the ASG than these playoffs.

that is concerning.

[SparzWizard]

Well, if he's not showing up in the playoffs then maybe it's time to start up the trade machine and trade ideas. But I'd replace the coach first and then give JT one last chance to redeem himself.

[kraidstar]

Something else i want to get off my chest:

I think we intentionally let teams hang around after we've built a lead.

I think our guys do love to play, and they put up stats. So when we get a decent lead, the mindset is to conserve energy, take the foot off the pedal, then play hard again when the other team comes back.

Which is COMPLETELY BACKWARDS.

Why not just continue to play hard and push the gane out of reach, then rest while the bench finishes things off? Maybe because you can't accumulate stats sitting on the bench?

IMO Smart and Tatum are the ringleaders for this. Smart is great when the game is hanging in the balance. But he's awful when we're ahead. There have been so many games that should have been blowouts but stayed close due to sheer laziness.

Joe needs to start benching guys for complacency.

Honest question: how do we square this thinking with the reality that the other team is comprised of talented basketball players who are also trying to win the game?

The way that I square it is that if you start playing iso ball, stat hunting, sulking, coasting, that is a great way to let other teams back into the game.

[Phantom255x]

I feel like every other game I see from Tatum, his box score in the 3rd or 4th quarter will show he's something like 1-9 from 3, or 2-11. Like forget the shooting %, but why is he even taking that many 3s?? He definitely doesn't have to do the sidestep 3s, or early shotclock stepback or pullup 3s.

It also kills momentum and forces us to scramble back on defense which is letting the other team have some life immediately

[SparzWizard]

Well, if he's not showing up in the playoffs then maybe it's time to start up the trade machine and trade ideas. But I'd replace the coach first and then give JT one last chance to redeem himself.

Now that I've seen tonight's game between MIA/MIL, I dunno. Maybe I'm drunk or high tonight, but, I visuals of Jimmy Butler donning in Celtics green and Jayson Tatum in Miami red.

Don't get me wrong tho, Butler has that killer-mindset in the playoffs and he's been phenomenal. Pretty MJ-esque performance in that series. Even though he's like several years older than JT. BUT YUP. Just some thoughts flying about, maybe I've seen too much. 

[Kernewek]

These criticisms of Tatum listed on this thread remind me a lot of the Vince Carter years in Toronto. Similar issues.

Some of it was on point. Some of it was unfair.

I go back to the Jimmy Butler vs Tatum conversation above. Butler is always going to look more aggressive because he is a slasher by trade. He does not possess a great jump-shot merely an adequate one. Tatum in contrast is a jump-shooter first and a slasher second. He plays a more finesse game as a result. It is less physical, less aggressive, less attacks to the basket, less trips to the foul line.

This reminds of Vince because it was a similar situation with him in Toronto. Everyone saw the spectacular athleticism and wondered why he did not drive to the basket more often. Why does he take so many long jump-shots? why is he settling? Why doesn't he drive the ball like Kobe Bryant does? Like Michael Jordan did?

Well, Vince was always a jump-shooter first (as a star in the NBA) and a slasher second. He was always going to rely more heavily on his outside shot than taking it to the basket. He did not have that mentality.

This is what reminds me of Tatum. And like I said, some of this criticism is fair = Tatum does settle too much, he does take too many long jump shots and he does not drive the ball enough.

But some is also unfair = it lacks respect for Tatum's large contributions to the team & his individuality as a basketball player. He is not who we want him to be. But what he is ... is spectacular in it's own right.

Large sections of Raptors fans were turning on Vince even before he started to play badly and later asked for a trade. Largely because he was not who they thought he should be. Yet, Vince was still the best player Toronto had ever had up until that time (and the 2nd best behind Kawhi in their 25yr history). Vince was a top 10 player in the league. He was the guy that gave them the best chance of winning of any player on the team. He was one of the best players in league to build a team around and every fan-base around the rest of the league would have loved to have him.

This is a very good post.

I'm not comparing talent, tatum has more. I'm comparing leadership and being more than walking the ball up in crunch and settling for a bad 3. It has to stop.


Having all these accomplishments he has makes him look worse because he should be grown out of these habits by now.


I see a guy who showed more intensity and desire in the ASG than these playoffs.

that is concerning.

What if we increase the contrast on the broadcast so his sweat is more visible?

[ozgod]

These criticisms of Tatum listed on this thread remind me a lot of the Vince Carter years in Toronto. Similar issues.

Some of it was on point. Some of it was unfair.

I go back to the Jimmy Butler vs Tatum conversation above. Butler is always going to look more aggressive because he is a slasher by trade. He does not possess a great jump-shot merely an adequate one. Tatum in contrast is a jump-shooter first and a slasher second. He plays a more finesse game as a result. It is less physical, less aggressive, less attacks to the basket, less trips to the foul line.

This reminds of Vince because it was a similar situation with him in Toronto. Everyone saw the spectacular athleticism and wondered why he did not drive to the basket more often. Why does he take so many long jump-shots? why is he settling? Why doesn't he drive the ball like Kobe Bryant does? Like Michael Jordan did?

Well, Vince was always a jump-shooter first (as a star in the NBA) and a slasher second. He was always going to rely more heavily on his outside shot than taking it to the basket. He did not have that mentality.

This is what reminds me of Tatum. And like I said, some of this criticism is fair = Tatum does settle too much, he does take too many long jump shots and he does not drive the ball enough.

But some is also unfair = it lacks respect for Tatum's large contributions to the team & his individuality as a basketball player. He is not who we want him to be. But what he is ... is spectacular in it's own right.

Large sections of Raptors fans were turning on Vince even before he started to play badly and later asked for a trade. Largely because he was not who they thought he should be. Yet, Vince was still the best player Toronto had ever had up until that time (and the 2nd best behind Kawhi in their 25yr history). Vince was a top 10 player in the league. He was the guy that gave them the best chance of winning of any player on the team. He was one of the best players in league to build a team around and every fan-base around the rest of the league would have loved to have him.

This is a very good post.

I'm not comparing talent, tatum has more. I'm comparing leadership and being more than walking the ball up in crunch and settling for a bad 3. It has to stop.


Having all these accomplishments he has makes him look worse because he should be grown out of these habits by now.


I see a guy who showed more intensity and desire in the ASG than these playoffs.

that is concerning.

What if we increase the contrast on the broadcast so his sweat is more visible?

Fans are instant gratification people [dang it] 

And you know that song? "You don't know what you got till it's gone" 

Let us wallow in our misery and call for everyone to be fired for at least a night...they will be all back on Thursday cheering on the team mark my words...because we're suckers for punishment

[tenn_smoothie]

"I'm fairly agnostic on Tatum, but he's pretty clearly the best player we've drafted since Pierce, and it's hard to think of a player that's had this type of career by 25 who didn't wind up with a ring or two (barring injury)."

Pierce needed Garnett to grow up and be about winning titles more than just scoring a bunch of points.
Without Garnett, Pierce never wins anything.

Tatum will never be the guts and heart of this team - just not in him.
I don't blame him for that. He cannot change his basic nature.

Management needs to see this and bring in what we need to change the personality of this team.
We all thought Marcus Smart was that guy, but he is just too dumb of a player to be a Garnett-type leader.
Same could be said for Brown, though he is more talented than Smart.

Garnett needed to win like Bird did, like Cowens and Havlicek did, like Russell did (though no one could quite be his equal).

Yes, Jimmy Butler would do wonders for this team and we would win titles with him. He has never had the talent around him that these Celtics would provide. A few have labeled him a playoff failure, but he hasn't had enough help where he has been.

This Celtics team has been so frustrating and their failures very painful to watch, since the acquisition of Kyrie Irving til now.

[Kernewek]

I think everyone loves Butler's attitude as a player. That's not really in dispute.

It should also be pointed out that Paul Pierce, at 33, had achieved considerably more than Jimmy Butler had at this comparative point in their relative NBA careers - as you point out, this was once a better player (KG) joined his team

There's an alternate universe where Butler and Embiid are terrorizing the East, but we don't live in that one. He's already 33, he's going to be making 52 million dollars on a player option at 36. Most NBA players age like milk, even if LeBron and CP3 have been bucking the trend - absolutely do not want him on the Celtics under these circumstances, since you'd be necessarily trading away 'the talent the Celtics could put around him'.


Oz - of course, we can all support the team however we want. I just think it's better for the blood pressure to try and stay a bit chilled after the buzzer 

[bricone29]

The heck with these meaningless playoff games. I can't wait for Tatum to dominate in next year's All-Star game.

[Neurotic Guy]

Butler looks great after his virtuoso performance to sink the Bucks. But I still wouldn’t give up Brown for him.  Tatum for Luka is intriguing though.

Cs took a shot in the mouth on Tuesday night and we’ll see how they respond tonight. 

I admit that the 10-15 second Tatum dance around the 3-point line that the world knows will result in a 3 attempt is agonizing.  Though it feels like insanity to hope that “play” is stricken from the playbook, I hope not to see it tonight or I hope he has at least an an average night from the arc.

[cman88]

My god the overreactions in some of these posts are over the top. Now we are talking about trading Tatum?

Criticism is one thing but let's not get over the top here.

[TheTruth34]

Some of the takes in this thread are mind-boggling to me.  Feel like there's quite a bit of recency bias going on.  Yes, last game there was a degree of laziness - in particular jacking 10 threes, many of which were in ISO situations and/or not in the flow of the offense.  It was a bad game for him and he was clearly out of sorts for whatever reason.

That said, and in Tatum's defense - the dude scored 46 points on the road in an elimination game against the defending champs.  It's not like he's been lollygagging it.  And then there's this
-> "Jayson Tatum is the only player in NBA history to shoot at least 50% a game tying or go-ahead shots with less than 24 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter among players with at least 25 such attempts."

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/11c5sij/oc_jayson_tatums_clutch_stats_are_elite/

To say the guy doesn't have a killer instinct might just be a narrative.  And while we're heaping praise on Butler for these otherworldly playoff performances - it's not like we see this version of Jimmy Buckets often in the regular season.  Does he save this "killer instinct" just for the playoffs? 

Let's give Tatum a mulligan for this past game.  Dude just turned 25 and we're very lucky to have him on the Boston Celtics.

[Phantom255x]

I still love Tatum. Glad we have him. But yeah, I wish he had the fire of a Jimmy Butler or even a Jaylen Brown. If he came out with a monster performance tonight to make sure we win and advance, I'd be encouraged. But idk, I feel it's more likely it'll be another annoying night where he has 25 points, but on like 9-25 shooting and 2-12 behind the arc (with some turnovers too).