JB states his case for All-NBA

[Kernewek]

Jaylen Brown has emerged this year as one of the best scorers in basketball. He’s making 58 percent of his 2-point shots and remains a torpedo in transition (only Giannis and LeBron have more fast-break points) where his effective field goal percentage is a blistering 66.9. Since breaking his face in early February, Brown is averaging 27.1 points, 6.2 rebounds, 4.0 assists, and 1.2 steals per game, as the second-best player on a team with the second-best record. Brown’s advanced numbers aren’t great, but some of that’s due to how well the Celtics play when he’s on the bench (Boston staggers Jaylen and Tatum).

"remains a torpedo in transition"

Had to laugh at that description. .... And it's true, Brown goes at the basket in those fast breaks like few others in the league. He often, like a torpedo, hits his target in dramatic fashion, IF he doesn't blow up before by forcing the play and getting out of control and turning the ball over. I'd be real interested to see the ratio for Brown in terms of fast break opportunities that are converted vs opportunities that are lost due to a turnover.

Hard to say at an individual level with the tools to hand quickly, but the C's score 14 fast break points per game (48 minutes) as a team and Jaylen's averaging just under 3 turnovers per game (35.9 MPG thus far), so we're likely looking at a positive ratio when he's on the floor for fast breaks in general.

[Moranis]

With all the injuries, I'd say Brown has an excellent shot at 3rd team forward, especially if the voters use next years' 65 game rule this year.

[jbpats]

Jaylen should absolutely be all NBA this year. The Celtics were dominant for the majority of the season in due part to his efforts. I feel he should have been an all star starter over Kyrie, but the fan vote clearly impacted that.

He's proven to be a top 15 player in the NBA all season and the accolades should go by performance on the court and not name on the back of the jersey (James/Durant/Curry)

[Vermont Green]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

I am not sure that is how it works.  Last year, both Embiid and Jokic got a lot of first team votes as a forward.  Those points still count.  The position for the player is determined based on what position the player got the most points/votes.  At least I think that is how it works (maybe someone can confirm).

So if Jaylen Brown ends up with 70 points from the guard position and 80 points from forward, I believe his total in the ranking will be 150 points/votes, but he would be ranked against other forwards as that is the position where he received the most points/votes.  But all the points/votes still count.

[tazzmaniac]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

I am not sure that is how it works.  Last year, both Embiid and Jokic got a lot of first team votes as a forward.  Those points still count.  The position for the player is determined based on what position the player got the most points/votes.  At least I think that is how it works (maybe someone can confirm).

So if Jaylen Brown ends up with 70 points from the guard position and 80 points from forward, I believe his total in the ranking will be 150 points/votes, but he would be ranked against other forwards as that is the position where he received the most points/votes.  But all the points/votes still count.

This is from Wikipedia. 

In 2020, Khris Middleton garnered votes at both forward and guard, yet he was not on the third team despite having more points overall than Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook, who were selected at guard.

Edit:  Looking at last year's voting, I think you're right.  Jokic had 88 1st team votes and Embiid had 57 1st team votes.  Only 100 voters so some of those had to be at forward. 

[Celtics2021]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

So in the case of Brown, he probably wants to have a majority of his votes come in at forward, because the point totals for 3rd team forwards will probably be lower than those for 3rd team guards, meaning his total is more likely to qualify at forward.

[Moranis]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

I am not sure that is how it works.  Last year, both Embiid and Jokic got a lot of first team votes as a forward.  Those points still count.  The position for the player is determined based on what position the player got the most points/votes.  At least I think that is how it works (maybe someone can confirm).

So if Jaylen Brown ends up with 70 points from the guard position and 80 points from forward, I believe his total in the ranking will be 150 points/votes, but he would be ranked against other forwards as that is the position where he received the most points/votes.  But all the points/votes still count.

This is from Wikipedia. 

In 2020, Khris Middleton garnered votes at both forward and guard, yet he was not on the third team despite having more points overall than Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook, who were selected at guard.

Edit:  Looking at last year's voting, I think you're right.  Jokic had 88 1st team votes and Embiid had 57 1st team votes.  Only 100 voters so some of those had to be at forward.

Yes because Middleton had more votes at forward he was considered a forward and he had less votes total than the 2 guys that made the team as a forward. 

[tazzmaniac]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

I am not sure that is how it works.  Last year, both Embiid and Jokic got a lot of first team votes as a forward.  Those points still count.  The position for the player is determined based on what position the player got the most points/votes.  At least I think that is how it works (maybe someone can confirm).

So if Jaylen Brown ends up with 70 points from the guard position and 80 points from forward, I believe his total in the ranking will be 150 points/votes, but he would be ranked against other forwards as that is the position where he received the most points/votes.  But all the points/votes still count.

This is from Wikipedia. 

In 2020, Khris Middleton garnered votes at both forward and guard, yet he was not on the third team despite having more points overall than Ben Simmons and Russell Westbrook, who were selected at guard.

Edit:  Looking at last year's voting, I think you're right.  Jokic had 88 1st team votes and Embiid had 57 1st team votes.  Only 100 voters so some of those had to be at forward.

Yes because Middleton had more votes at forward he was considered a forward and he had less votes total than the 2 guys that made the team as a forward.

Which is screwed up but not as screwed up as I thought it was.  Glad they're making it non-positional voting. 

[Kernewek]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

[bdm860]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot. 

I've known that since the reasoning he gave for not voting Avery Bradley to All-D back in 2017 was because Devin Booker scored 70 on the C's in a game Avery Bradley didn't even play.

[Celtics2021]

Assuming the spreadsheet is correct, Chris Broussard is an idiot.  He put Tatum as 1st team Guard, Embiid as 1st team forward and Luka as 2nd team forward.  So he's given them 0 points at their real positions and hurt their chances.

That’s not how it works.  Your points count regardless of the position you’re voted into.  When comparing your total, however, you’re classified as the position to which a majority of your votes (not points) came from.  So Tatum’s 1st place vote still counts towards his point total, for example, and whether he is compared against other guards vs. forwards when all the votes are in depends whether more of those votes came in at forward vs. guard.

Tatum would only be hurt if Broussard and a majority of other voters put Tatum at guard, and if, thus being considered a guard, Tatum had fewer points than two other guards, dropping him to 2nd team instead of first team.

More importantly, we don't have to rely on a spreadsheet to prove Chris"Multiple Sources" Brussard is an idiot.

That spreadsheet taught me two things about Chris Broussard.  Firstly, he's not a total idiot, as he nicely gave Jaylen a 2nd-team forward vote.  Secondly, his media outlet is listed as FOX.  I had no idea he switched from ESPN, and I didn't know FOX covered NBA basketball.

[Vermont Green]

I think the positionless approach will lead to cases where it isn't fair either.  I am fine with positions, in fact I think there should be 5 defined positions (traditional PG, SG, SF, PF, C).  Allow players to have a primary position and a secondary position. Brown would be primary SG, secondary SF.  Embiid could be primary C, secondary PF.  Voters have to put them into one of the two positions, but they can do either.  Doncic for example could be PG or SG but you couldn't stick him in a forward.

Then rank them the same way they do now but start with the highest point getter and put him into his primary position.  Then the next highest point getter.  If that person's primary position is already full, slot them in the secondary.  If the secondary is already full (with someone with more points) to, tough luck, you go to second team.

For Embiid, it may not make any difference.  Giannis is likely the PF and Jokic is likely the center but if Embiid ended up with more points than Giannis, Embiid would be the PF and Giannis could be a SF (if that was his secondary position).  Or one of these 3 has to go to second team.

For Brown, voters would have the flexibility to vote him is as either as SG or a SF.  Then, if he has more points than all the other SG and SF, he gets in to one or the other.  But Embiid couldn't take his spot.

My approach wouldn't solve every problem but I think it would result in the most overall fairness.  Someone like Embiid would get a second chance at a realistic position, but you also don't end up with 2 PGs and 3 Cs or something like that as the first team all NBA line up.  You still end up with a first team all NBA that could actually work on the court.

[Roy H.]

I think the positionless approach will lead to cases where it isn't fair either.  I am fine with positions, in fact I think there should be 5 defined positions (traditional PG, SG, SF, PF, C).  Allow players to have a primary position and a secondary position. Brown would be primary SG, secondary SF.  Embiid could be primary C, secondary PF.  Voters have to put them into one of the two positions, but they can do either.  Doncic for example could be PG or SG but you couldn't stick him in a forward.

Then rank them the same way they do now but start with the highest point getter and put him into his primary position.  Then the next highest point getter.  If that person's primary position is already full, slot them in the secondary.  If the secondary is already full (with someone with more points) to, tough luck, you go to second team.

For Embiid, it may not make any difference.  Giannis is likely the PF and Jokic is likely the center but if Embiid ended up with more points than Giannis, Embiid would be the PF and Giannis could be a SF (if that was his secondary position).  Or one of these 3 has to go to second team.

For Brown, voters would have the flexibility to vote him is as either as SG or a SF.  Then, if he has more points than all the other SG and SF, he gets in to one or the other.  But Embiid couldn't take his spot.

My approach wouldn't solve every problem but I think it would result in the most overall fairness.  Someone like Embiid would get a second chance at a realistic position, but you also don't end up with 2 PGs and 3 Cs or something like that as the first team all NBA line up.  You still end up with a first team all NBA that could actually work on the court.

I agree that positionless could lead to some weird outcomes.  It's possible that a future team could have five guards, for instance.  But, ultimately it's about rewarding the best players (especially where there are contract incentives involves), so I'm fine with the change. 

[slamtheking]

I think the positionless approach will lead to cases where it isn't fair either.  I am fine with positions, in fact I think there should be 5 defined positions (traditional PG, SG, SF, PF, C).  Allow players to have a primary position and a secondary position. Brown would be primary SG, secondary SF.  Embiid could be primary C, secondary PF.  Voters have to put them into one of the two positions, but they can do either.  Doncic for example could be PG or SG but you couldn't stick him in a forward.

Then rank them the same way they do now but start with the highest point getter and put him into his primary position.  Then the next highest point getter.  If that person's primary position is already full, slot them in the secondary.  If the secondary is already full (with someone with more points) to, tough luck, you go to second team.

For Embiid, it may not make any difference.  Giannis is likely the PF and Jokic is likely the center but if Embiid ended up with more points than Giannis, Embiid would be the PF and Giannis could be a SF (if that was his secondary position).  Or one of these 3 has to go to second team.

For Brown, voters would have the flexibility to vote him is as either as SG or a SF.  Then, if he has more points than all the other SG and SF, he gets in to one or the other.  But Embiid couldn't take his spot.

My approach wouldn't solve every problem but I think it would result in the most overall fairness.  Someone like Embiid would get a second chance at a realistic position, but you also don't end up with 2 PGs and 3 Cs or something like that as the first team all NBA line up.  You still end up with a first team all NBA that could actually work on the court.

I agree that positionless could lead to some weird outcomes.  It's possible that a future team could have five guards, for instance.  But, ultimately it's about rewarding the best players (especially where there are contract incentives involves), so I'm fine with the change.

agreed.  at this point with so much of the game basically being position-less, All-NBA teams should go that route as well particularly with the contract implications nowadays

[Celtics2021]

I think the positionless approach will lead to cases where it isn't fair either.  I am fine with positions, in fact I think there should be 5 defined positions (traditional PG, SG, SF, PF, C).  Allow players to have a primary position and a secondary position. Brown would be primary SG, secondary SF.  Embiid could be primary C, secondary PF.  Voters have to put them into one of the two positions, but they can do either.  Doncic for example could be PG or SG but you couldn't stick him in a forward.

Then rank them the same way they do now but start with the highest point getter and put him into his primary position.  Then the next highest point getter.  If that person's primary position is already full, slot them in the secondary.  If the secondary is already full (with someone with more points) to, tough luck, you go to second team.

For Embiid, it may not make any difference.  Giannis is likely the PF and Jokic is likely the center but if Embiid ended up with more points than Giannis, Embiid would be the PF and Giannis could be a SF (if that was his secondary position).  Or one of these 3 has to go to second team.

For Brown, voters would have the flexibility to vote him is as either as SG or a SF.  Then, if he has more points than all the other SG and SF, he gets in to one or the other.  But Embiid couldn't take his spot.

My approach wouldn't solve every problem but I think it would result in the most overall fairness.  Someone like Embiid would get a second chance at a realistic position, but you also don't end up with 2 PGs and 3 Cs or something like that as the first team all NBA line up.  You still end up with a first team all NBA that could actually work on the court.

I agree that positionless could lead to some weird outcomes.  It's possible that a future team could have five guards, for instance.  But, ultimately it's about rewarding the best players (especially where there are contract incentives involves), so I'm fine with the change.

It's certain there will be some weird outcomes, but it's definitely better.  Positions are so fluid in today's NBA -- very few players outside of a handful of centers and points guards play all their minutes at a singly defined position -- most will find themselves in 2 or 3 different spots throughout the year.  As far as Jaylen is concerned, he started 41 of his 67 games with two other guards in the lineup (typically Smart and White, one time with Pritchard in there instead).  If we're still hewing to the traditional 2 guards, 2 forward, 1 center for positions this season, he should rightfully be considered a forward based on where he started games.