True or False: We Play Better as a Team Without JB

[liam]

When people talk about trading Brown, I see perpetually hurt guys like AF or Kawhi offered, or frequent trade block guys like Hield or Myles Turner.

For those that don’t appreciate Jaylen here, is there a trade that makes sense for the Celtics?

If you can trade Jaylen for Luka, Joker, or Giannis then you do it but barring that you keep him.

[slamtheking]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

a. cowherd's an idiot
b. no one cares what observers who aren't C's fans think.  they're typically uninformed about the C's if you listen to what they say.
c. trading a young and improving all-star for rookie contracts is a BAD idea. 
d. C's are moving away from being a dynasty if they trade Jaylen for anyone other than the handful of players in this league who are actually better than him. 

[Moranis]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

The best duo in NBA history did alright despite a somewhat “duplicate” nature. It’s a nonsense point. We are the best team in the NBA after making a trip to the Finals last season, yet people like yourself are hellbent on burning that down on a total gamble.

What is with the obsession with the potential, and perhaps an unlikely one at that, with the grass being greener on the other side?

Jordan and Pippen weren't that duplicative in the sense that Pippen clearly had a #2 mentality and was an excellent passer (nearly a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio in his career and over, in some cases well over, 2 to 1 during the 6 title seasons).  Jordan was the #1 guy and also an excellent passer.  They are both also clearly better than Tatum and Brown, respectively.  If they were lesser talented players perhaps their fit would have been questioned more.  When you have the best player in the world you don't need a perfect fitting roster around that guy and you can get by with a more questionable fit (see also Miami with Lebron and Wade).  If Tatum elevates into the unquestioned best player on the planet, then you don't need to worry about Brown's fit as much.

[Phantom255x]

There's so much nitpicking going on in this thread

So if we play better without JB, are people suggesting we just trade him this offseason and roll with what we have? Or is there another #2 option out there we can trade Jaylen for?

[todd_days_41]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

The best duo in NBA history did alright despite a somewhat “duplicate” nature. It’s a nonsense point. We are the best team in the NBA after making a trip to the Finals last season, yet people like yourself are hellbent on burning that down on a total gamble.

What is with the obsession with the potential, and perhaps an unlikely one at that, with the grass being greener on the other side?

I’m hellbent on what now? Seems pretty obvious that my post is the opposite of passionate. It’s simple business — nothing more, nothing less.

You on the other hard sound a little hellbent on the alternative, which may very well be losing Brown in Free Agency for nothing — which would be utterly stupid.

And Scottie Pippen? Jaylen Brown is… not.

[RodyTur10]

When people talk about trading Brown, I see perpetually hurt guys like AD or Kawhi offered, or frequent trade block guys like Hield or Myles Turner.

For those that don’t appreciate Jaylen here, is there a trade that makes sense for the Celtics?

I don't think we have to trade Jaylen. But it's an option. Due to the scarcity on the wing position his trading value should be really high. On the other hand the market we're looking for consists of players who generally get traded when they're disgruntled.

Yes

Guards: Haliburton, Morant, Gilgeous-Alexander, Curry, Garland, Mitchell
Wings: Doncic, Antetokounmpo, Leonard, Durant
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Sabonis

Maybe

Guards: Lillard
Wings: Barnes, Edwards, Bane
Bigs: Mobley, Davis, Adebayo

[gouki88]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

The best duo in NBA history did alright despite a somewhat “duplicate” nature. It’s a nonsense point. We are the best team in the NBA after making a trip to the Finals last season, yet people like yourself are hellbent on burning that down on a total gamble.

What is with the obsession with the potential, and perhaps an unlikely one at that, with the grass being greener on the other side?

I’m hellbent on what now? Seems pretty obvious that my post is the opposite of passionate. It’s simple business — nothing more, nothing less.

You on the other hard sound a little hellbent on the alternative, which may very well be losing Brown in Free Agency for nothing — which would be utterly stupid.

And Scottie Pippen? Jaylen Brown is… not.

If taking Colin Cowherd's garbage as anything of worth is "simply business", then count me out.

Where did I say that? I think Stevens and co. have a much better read on the likelihood of retaining Brown than Cowturd. Even if we get to the deadline next season and Brown wants out, his value will be higher than Kyrie's, who netted a good return.

[Roy H.]

The Celtics have an identity crisis?  Because they have two guys who can get buckets in the fourth?

That’s just fiction.

[KG Living Legend]

 False. The goal is to win. Brown gives us the best chance to win, a game, a series,  a championship.

[todd_days_41]

I haven't voted either way. But I do think there's a VERY good chance the Cs trade JB this summer, for a number of reasons.

Recently, Colin Cowherd said something that interested me, which went a little like this (and I'm paraphrasing):

I don't trust the Celtics because of the duplicate nature of Tatum and Brown. All we hear is that this is now 'Tatum's team', but then at the end of games, Jaylen Brown feels compelled to play hero ball to prove that it's not. And he's not as good as Tatum, so that's just dumb. The Warriors are Steph's team. The Bucks are Giannis' team. The Nuggets are Jokic's team. The Sixers are Embiid's team. The Mavs are Luka's team. The Celtics should be Tatum's team, because he's that good. But they have an identity crisis and it's going to hurt them in the end.

The man has a point.

The perpetual chip on Brown's shoulder has its value.... but also its cost. I advocated a bit in the middle of last season on this board for trading Brown for two very good rookie contract players, and I still think from a hierarchy and cap management perspective -- there's still a lot of sense in that. Tatum, Smart and Timelord is the foundation of a championship caliber team. The Cs don't really need a lesser version of Tatum (Brown). It's nice to have, but I think they should consider alternatives before Brown sniffs Free Agency.

I think a LOT of observers who aren't Cs fans agree with that notion. It's just harder for fans to accept but you grow to love the player, which I totally get.

I just think the Cs could be a true dynasty if they very smartly traded Brown for maximum value.

The best duo in NBA history did alright despite a somewhat “duplicate” nature. It’s a nonsense point. We are the best team in the NBA after making a trip to the Finals last season, yet people like yourself are hellbent on burning that down on a total gamble.

What is with the obsession with the potential, and perhaps an unlikely one at that, with the grass being greener on the other side?

I’m hellbent on what now? Seems pretty obvious that my post is the opposite of passionate. It’s simple business — nothing more, nothing less.

You on the other hard sound a little hellbent on the alternative, which may very well be losing Brown in Free Agency for nothing — which would be utterly stupid.

And Scottie Pippen? Jaylen Brown is… not.

If taking Colin Cowherd's garbage as anything of worth is "simply business", then count me out.

Where did I say that? I think Stevens and co. have a much better read on the likelihood of retaining Brown than Cowturd. Even if we get to the deadline next season and Brown wants out, his value will be higher than Kyrie's, who netted a good return.

What does Cowherd have to do with business? I just quoted something he said — something that has some relevance, and is not “garbage” whether you like him or not (do they even have his show in Australia?).

If the Cs trade Brown at next year Trade Deadline, this too would be stupid. If they’re going to trade him, they should do it this summer — and probably only will if he won’t commit to staying long term — which there’s a 100% chance they’re going to discuss with him as soon as the season ends if they don’t win a title.

Generally, I think Celtics fans are too passionate about Brown and it clouds objectivity. The vim & vigor in the responses here support that.

It’s not like I suggested they be open to trading Tatum or Timelord….

[todd_days_41]

False. The goal is to win. Brown gives us the best chance to win, a game, a series,  a championship.

Certainly. The notion that simply subtracting Brown makes the Cs better is silly.

[tazzmaniac]

The Celtics have an identity crisis?  Because they have two guys who can get buckets in the fourth?

That’s just fiction.

Having two guys who can get buckets in the 4th is good.  The crisis occurs when both guys think they are #1 stars and one of them gets disgruntled about being the #2 guy.  This is Tatum's team.  So the question is will JB be satisfied with being the #2 guy for the foreseeable future?   

[todd_days_41]

The Celtics have an identity crisis?  Because they have two guys who can get buckets in the fourth?

That’s just fiction.

Does Jaylen Brown? Is he not jealous that Tatum has emerged as an MVP candidate, and he’s seen more as a #2? Sure seems like it’s a distinct possibility — and it might cause him to look for a team where he can be the lead dog in 2024.

[tazzmaniac]

When people talk about trading Brown, I see perpetually hurt guys like AD or Kawhi offered, or frequent trade block guys like Hield or Myles Turner.

For those that don’t appreciate Jaylen here, is there a trade that makes sense for the Celtics?

I don't think we have to trade Jaylen. But it's an option. Due to the scarcity on the wing position his trading value should be really high. On the other hand the market we're looking for consists of players who generally get traded when they're disgruntled.

Yes

Guards: Haliburton, Morant, Gilgeous-Alexander, Curry, Garland, Mitchell
Wings: Doncic, Antetokounmpo, Leonard, Durant
Bigs: Jokic, Embiid, Sabonis

Maybe

Guards: Lillard
Wings: Barnes, Edwards, Bane
Bigs: Mobley, Davis, Adebayo

I'd add Mikal Bridges to your list.  There are some on your list (e.g. Morant and Lillard) who I'd remove. 

[ozgod]

TP Todd_days. That's an excellent point made.
If Brown would accept his role as a secondary option and embrace his defensive qualities he would be much more valuable to the team.

Is there any evidence that he is not accepting this? I hear this brought up a lot but I’m finding it hard to find any evidence supporting this narrative.