How good is Coach Maz? (Update: Interim Removed)

[SparzWizard]

Not good.

[Yuckabuck33]

We're really not going to know until the playoffs.

Until then, I have him as top 10.  Justified or not, this team has the best record in the NBA at the moment and has emerged from the Ime debacle without much detriment.   People can certainly nitpick his schemes and the decisions but, at the end of the day right now, this team has the best record in the NBA nearly 50 games in.

I have the same opinion. I don't think you can tell until you've seen his full body of work, including the playoffs. If we had asked the same question of Ime this time last year the Celtics were 24-24 and Ime would probably have been ranked in the bottom 10. In fact many were calling for him to be fired. Here's an example of some posts from that time period in late January:

Anyone else taking a break from watching?
Is our coach/front office better or worse than last year? (Hint: the majority answer to the poll was both were worse)
How much longer can this team endure this level of performance without imploding?
This team is unwatchable
Perk slams Ime in game

Obviously we are all creatures of the moment, and we're on a 2 game losing streak, and so far most of us have struggled with Joe Mazz's in game management, which is the part of his coaching that we see. We judge coaches by timeouts, substitutions, plays drawn up and by that metric he doesn't match up to many people's expectations of what a good coach should be. But we should also remember that a) we're halfway through the season and b) we are 35-14 after 49 games vs 24-24 after 48 games last season. This time last season a lot of people were advocating for Ime to be fired, just click on any of those links or do a search of the forum around January 2022. Here are a few examples:

"I love Perk’s frankness and insight. Anybody see Perk pre-game? He said Ime needs to be held accountable by Brad. Perk likened Ime to a parent who has lost control of his kids. “ You give them too much rope and they play with you all the time. He has to draw the line [with the players]. Uchoka is in way over his head."

"TBH, I feel like we’re stuck on the treadmill, so getting higher picks may be the only chance to improve/become a contender.  But judging how this is wearing on the fans, you can only imagine what’s it’s doing to the players."

"I can't do this anymore. I have seen them blow games all season long. This team is poorly constructed and they don't believe in each other.. Their body language shows it."

"A viable head coach might have a bigger impact!"

"The whole Tatum bringing up the ball was a disaster when Brad did it, it is still a disaster with Ime."

"Coach is certainly worse in my opinion. We’ve got a fairly substantial sample size to be able to say that with confidence. He just has no idea on the offensive side of things."

"They have decent talent. They just have a head coach who doesn’t know how to use that talent effectively, either short or long term, and he especially doesn’t have the coaching skills to get them to perform by holding them accountable."

This is not to embarrass anyone, at the time those comments were made the Cs were playing terrible and everyone thought Ime was a fail. You can only comment based on how you felt at the time, and those comments were 100% valid based on how the team was performing. The point I'm trying to make is that 4 months later everyone's opinions on the team and the coach completely turned around so let's not give up on Joe too soon. It's premature to write someone off before they've been given the same opportunity every coach we've had was given, which is to complete a season and see where he and the team end up.

Right now the evidence suggests he's more of a facilitator than a coach. He's got an excessively hands off approach. But I think his coaching philosophy is to empower the players to take responsibility rather than tell them what to do. Even if it costs them games, I suspect he's looking at the bigger picture and trying to prepare them to make decisions in the cauldron of the playoffs, so even if they make mistakes now the experience they gain is worth it to him. It could also be because he doesn't have the gravitas of someone like a Pop or a D'Antoni who has been in the league for decades, or even an Ime or a Juwan Howard who has been an NBA assistant for many years, and he's coming in coaching a team that made it to the NBA finals and was 2 games away from winning it all. I also suspect his in game management will change come playoff time - he'll never be a Pop type coach, I just don't think he's built that way - but in the playoffs when every win matters I doubt he would throw games away to "teach someone a lesson".

I'm inclined to give him a little bit of rope until his full body of work has been completed.

Ozgod said, "Even if it costs them games, I suspect he's looking at the bigger picture and trying to prepare them to make decisions in the cauldron of the playoffs, so even if they make mistakes now the experience they gain is worth it to him."

I'm a big believer in the idea that you can tell what the question was when you see the answer. That means that Joe is trying to continue everything good from last year,  plus correct what he thinks Ime GOT WRONG. Something about the Cs playoff run last year made Joe think that the key to them getting over the hump this year is the team being able to think for themselves. And he obviously IS willing to lose games now if it will correct this perceived problem.

[jpotter33]

We're really not going to know until the playoffs.

Until then, I have him as top 10.  Justified or not, this team has the best record in the NBA at the moment and has emerged from the Ime debacle without much detriment.   People can certainly nitpick his schemes and the decisions but, at the end of the day right now, this team has the best record in the NBA nearly 50 games in.

I have the same opinion. I don't think you can tell until you've seen his full body of work, including the playoffs. If we had asked the same question of Ime this time last year the Celtics were 24-24 and Ime would probably have been ranked in the bottom 10. In fact many were calling for him to be fired. Here's an example of some posts from that time period in late January:

Anyone else taking a break from watching?
Is our coach/front office better or worse than last year? (Hint: the majority answer to the poll was both were worse)
How much longer can this team endure this level of performance without imploding?
This team is unwatchable
Perk slams Ime in game

Obviously we are all creatures of the moment, and we're on a 2 game losing streak, and so far most of us have struggled with Joe Mazz's in game management, which is the part of his coaching that we see. We judge coaches by timeouts, substitutions, plays drawn up and by that metric he doesn't match up to many people's expectations of what a good coach should be. But we should also remember that a) we're halfway through the season and b) we are 35-14 after 49 games vs 24-24 after 48 games last season. This time last season a lot of people were advocating for Ime to be fired, just click on any of those links or do a search of the forum around January 2022. Here are a few examples:

"I love Perk’s frankness and insight. Anybody see Perk pre-game? He said Ime needs to be held accountable by Brad. Perk likened Ime to a parent who has lost control of his kids. “ You give them too much rope and they play with you all the time. He has to draw the line [with the players]. Uchoka is in way over his head."

"TBH, I feel like we’re stuck on the treadmill, so getting higher picks may be the only chance to improve/become a contender.  But judging how this is wearing on the fans, you can only imagine what’s it’s doing to the players."

"I can't do this anymore. I have seen them blow games all season long. This team is poorly constructed and they don't believe in each other.. Their body language shows it."

"A viable head coach might have a bigger impact!"

"The whole Tatum bringing up the ball was a disaster when Brad did it, it is still a disaster with Ime."

"Coach is certainly worse in my opinion. We’ve got a fairly substantial sample size to be able to say that with confidence. He just has no idea on the offensive side of things."

"They have decent talent. They just have a head coach who doesn’t know how to use that talent effectively, either short or long term, and he especially doesn’t have the coaching skills to get them to perform by holding them accountable."

This is not to embarrass anyone, at the time those comments were made the Cs were playing terrible and everyone thought Ime was a fail. You can only comment based on how you felt at the time, and those comments were 100% valid based on how the team was performing. The point I'm trying to make is that 4 months later everyone's opinions on the team and the coach completely turned around so let's not give up on Joe too soon. It's premature to write someone off before they've been given the same opportunity every coach we've had was given, which is to complete a season and see where he and the team end up.

Right now the evidence suggests he's more of a facilitator than a coach. He's got an excessively hands off approach. But I think his coaching philosophy is to empower the players to take responsibility rather than tell them what to do. Even if it costs them games, I suspect he's looking at the bigger picture and trying to prepare them to make decisions in the cauldron of the playoffs, so even if they make mistakes now the experience they gain is worth it to him. It could also be because he doesn't have the gravitas of someone like a Pop or a D'Antoni who has been in the league for decades, or even an Ime or a Juwan Howard who has been an NBA assistant for many years, and he's coming in coaching a team that made it to the NBA finals and was 2 games away from winning it all. I also suspect his in game management will change come playoff time - he'll never be a Pop type coach, I just don't think he's built that way - but in the playoffs when every win matters I doubt he would throw games away to "teach someone a lesson".

I'm inclined to give him a little bit of rope until his full body of work has been completed.

Ozgod said, "Even if it costs them games, I suspect he's looking at the bigger picture and trying to prepare them to make decisions in the cauldron of the playoffs, so even if they make mistakes now the experience they gain is worth it to him."

I'm a big believer in the idea that you can tell what the question was when you see the answer. That means that Joe is trying to continue everything good from last year,  plus correct what he thinks Ime GOT WRONG. Something about the Cs playoff run last year made Joe think that the key to them getting over the hump this year is the team being able to think for themselves. And he obviously IS willing to lose games now if it will correct this perceived problem.

1) If that's his perspective, that's a truly idiotic position to take. You don't lose games to fix a perceived problem, particularly when you have a chance to hold home court throughout the playoffs. There's 82 games in a season; there's plenty of time and chances to give them learning opportunities without throwing games.

2) If that's his perspective, what purpose does not calling the timeout in last night's situation serve? When would we ever have that collection of guys out there in an end of game situation? It's the dumbest thing you could ever imagine. Yes, let's make Tatum learn how to make a game-winning play with Timelord and a handful of deep bench players, on the second night of a back to back, when they've scored 13 whole points the entire quarter. That's not a learning opportunity; that's setting your team up to fail.

3) I do think that's his perspective about timeouts, but I also think he's overly dogmatic with it, as well as stubborn with little else to compensate beyond that strategy. Look, nobody is saying you have to call a timeout at every single run, and they don't always work. If you or the players don't appropriately respond out of the timeout, it's worthless. And, yes, there is at least some value in letting the guys go through some struggles and not bailing them out with a timeout each time. But it's the extreme that he takes this philosophy that is so frustrating. He regularly lets 12, 14, 16-0 runs and longer extended runs go without calling a timeout - giving the other team momentum and destroying any ground we've gained on the lead - or he does end of game crap like last night and the Toronto game that are so mind-numbingly bonkers that even pee wee coaches shake their head at it.

Joe even admitted it himself. While he didn't say he should've called the timeout, he admitted that it was the wrong move to not do anything at all with play-calling and let them figure it out themselves, which should be just mind-blowing to anyone who watched that fourth quarter last night. Nobody in their right mind at that point would think letting Tatum figure that situation out without a set play - on the second night of a back to back with a primary deep bench unit, mind you - was the right call, yet ole Green Joe let them make their own death bed leading to a TO and the loss.

And that's ultimately the problem with Joe - he's way too green and inexperienced to be a professional head coach at this point in his career. The people making comparisons with Ime are so off-base. Ime was a NBA player AND an NBA assistant for many seasons before taking the head coach job. That's a significant difference than ole Green Joe with barely any coaching experience at all, NBA or otherwise. Ime's situation coming in was also way different. He came into a first round series exit team with lots of question marks about them, and he turned them around with his toughness and defensive-minded philosophy. He wasn't perfect, but he's lightyears ahead of where Joe is in his recognition and understanding of the NBA game. Ime also showed tremendous growth. At the start of the year, he was very bad with calling out the players in ways that weren't constructive after losses, but he grew and learned how to be more constructive in his criticism and build trust with the players. I haven't seen any of that kind of growth at all from Joe yet.

Regarding the record, this is mostly due to Ime's (and Brad's) hard work over last year and the summer, with Joe's success thus far primarily being a result of the talent of his team, not his quality coaching.  With the amount of talent that we have, he really just has to be an average coach and not royally screw up for us to be where we are at this point in the season. It's the playoffs where the coaching truly matters, and I don't think there's anyone that is comfortable with Joe as he is today leading us through a playoff push. Perhaps he grows significantly before the playoffs, but that's a heck of a leap in my eyes.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Why is Ime getting credit for these wins?

[tenn_smoothie]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be, "How bad is Coach Maz ?"

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be, "How bad is Coach Maz ?"

The Celtics are the best team. Their coach must suck.

[bdm860]

I'm both not surprised and surprised by the reactions here.  All seem to be stemming from the lack of a timeout.

I'm not surprised people are upset about the lack of a timeout, that seems to be a common gripe.  Personally, I've long been a fan of no timeouts in situations like that.  Don't give the defense a chance to set up.  Offense usually has the upper hand in these situations, don't give that up.  I realize I tend to be in the minority with this opinion though.

What I'm surprised about is people's expectation of the play that would be called coming out of a timeout here.  I feel like any play coming out of a timeout here is going to be a Tatum iso where he holds the ball running a lot of time off the clock, it's not going to be some quick shot or complex play.

The guy you want to have the ball has the ball where you want him to have the ball against a bench guy who was only playing because Jimmy Butler was out (he played 0, 5, 5 minutes in his last 3 games).  You want to call a timeout and give the D a chance to deny Tatum the ball?

When I was watching the game, I felt pretty good at the time.  Tatum with the ball, ~15 seconds left, this is about as good a set up as you could hope for given the situation.

Also saving the timeout gave the C's a decent look for a final shot.  They were able to call 2 timeouts with 0.6 left, one to advance the ball, and one after they couldn't inbound the first time.  Had Joe called a timeout earlier, they wouldn't have been able to do that, and the C's don't even get a shot off.  Of course the obvious counter is C's wouldn't have been down with 0.6 left if Joe called a timeout on the previous play, but that still could have ended with a miss or steal by the Heat, putting the C's in the same situation but with only one timeout.

Not calling a timeout worked pretty well for Ime vs the Nets in Game 1.  Someone will say this is a more experienced lineup, true, I have no counter.  I remember watching this live and thought Stevens would have called a timeout soon as the play started to breakdown when Jaylen drove and got cut off at the baseline.

Not calling a timeout worked pretty well for Joe vs the Lakers.  Was this not the same situation, down 2, ~20 seconds left, give the ball to Tatum and let him do his thing?  Similar oddball lineup too (actually the Tatum/White/Pritchard/GWill/RWill lineup has played together more than the Tatum/Smart/Brown/GWill/Kornet lineup).

Here Ime called a timeout to set up a Tatum iso against the reigning DPOY.  But Joe already had a Tatum iso, against a worse defender, an undrafted guy who was only playing because Jimmy Butler was out.

This is Brad calling a timeout to advance the ball, with the play being just give the ball to Tatum.  No special play drawn up (unless you consider the Hayward pick special).  The play was give the ball to Tatum.

I have my doubts a timeout would have changed things last night.  A good chance the play would be very similar to what we got (Tatum iso, Rob pick, Pritchard/White/Grant spacing).  Tatum with the ball is a good place to be closing out games.

[tenn_smoothie]

The one positive Maz brought to the team this season was a vastly improved offensive approach, running more and putting in lots of off-ball motion and screening to alleviate the stagnant isolation we suffered thru too many times last year.

But lately, even that seems to have declined since the first month of the season. When Tatum and Brown (and maybe Smart) are all out of the lineup, the bench guys run more team offense with more motion. But the J's are more and more reverting to bad habits and stopping ball movement only to go into their dribble & juke show, which often leads to a bad shot. Of course, it is Mazzulla's job to reverse this trend and get the offense back on track.

[TheTruth34]

Good enough to be officially named head coach of your Boston Celtics!

[Donoghus]

Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
1m
The Boston Celtics have promoted interim head coach Joe Mazzula to Head Coach.

[Donoghus]

Jay King
@ByJayKing
The Celtics also announced that they have extended Joe Mazzulla’s contract.

[celticinorlando]

Alright. He’s the guy going forward. I’m sure he will be more comfortable and continue to grow within the job.

[Roy H.]

Congrats Coach Mazz.  Now, hire an assistant who is only in charge of time outs.

[Phantom255x]

Congrats Mazz! 

So I assume Ime is officially fired right? Basically a free agent now as well?

[jpotter33]

Interesting.

I wonder what that means for the Ime situation? We all knew this was coming, but figured it would be once he was hired elsewhere.