This team looks to have quit on Joe

[Roy H.]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

[Moranis]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

This thread is a byproduct of extreme emotions overtaking rational thought. The yo-yos are unsustainable l, and fans lose their minds. They’re the best! They’re the worst! Perspective people.

[SparzWizard]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

It not about losing in terms of standings. It's more about the lack of focus and lack of intensity. They lost like 7 or 8 games after the Phoenix game and lost twice on their road stretch so far. Beatdowns here and there once in a while I get, but losing games on a frequent basis then there's a concern.

[Roy H.]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

Outlier losses happen all of the time.  Those are different than sustained streaks of particularly good or bad play.  I don't disagree that such streaks happen, as well, but I think there's a root cause to them rather than random chance.

[Moranis]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

Outlier losses happen all of the time.  Those are different than sustained streaks of particularly good or bad play.  I don't disagree that such streaks happen, as well, but I think there's a root cause to them rather than random chance.

I don't know, look all of the top tier teams this year.  Bucks were 9-0, then went 3-5, then 7-1, then 4-7, and have now won 2 in a row.  The Nets were 9-11, reeled off 4 straight, lost 1, and then reeled off 12 in a row.  The Grizzlies have had two separate stints where they've lost 4 of 5 games. 

Basketball is just prone to significant shifts, both in game and game to game.  The C's may be a bit more extreme than is typical, but I think that is more that they were just so hot to start the year (well during that 17-2 period) that it makes the current 5-7 in the last 12 just seem so bad, but 5-7 periods happen every year from most of the good teams.  I suspect most 55 win level teams have a period that is similar to what the C's are currently doing.   

[JohnBoy65]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

Outlier losses happen all of the time.  Those are different than sustained streaks of particularly good or bad play.  I don't disagree that such streaks happen, as well, but I think there's a root cause to them rather than random chance.

I don't know, look all of the top tier teams this year.  Bucks were 9-0, then went 3-5, then 7-1, then 4-7, and have now won 2 in a row.  The Nets were 9-11, reeled off 4 straight, lost 1, and then reeled off 12 in a row.  The Grizzlies have had two separate stints where they've lost 4 of 5 games. 

Basketball is just prone to significant shifts, both in game and game to game.  The C's may be a bit more extreme than is typical, but I think that is more that they were just so hot to start the year (well during that 17-2 period) that it makes the current 5-7 in the last 12 just seem so bad, but 5-7 periods happen every year from most of the good teams.  I suspect most 55 win level teams have a period that is similar to what the C's are currently doing.   

Yeah I agree with you Moranis. So far this is a bad 12 game stretch. It does happen all the time. To me it looks like, at least through these last 12 games, we're a team that thinks we can coast against 'inferior' teams, but turn in on against 'good' teams.  We played great against the Clippers and Bucks. That's not a trait a championship level team can or should have.

[Kernewek]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

It not about losing in terms of standings. It's more about the lack of focus and lack of intensity. They lost like 7 or 8 games after the Phoenix game and lost twice on their road stretch so far. Beatdowns here and there once in a while I get, but losing games on a frequent basis then there's a concern.

I think this is getting closer to the issue - because 'losing games on a frequent basis' when the Celtics are sitting on a 26-12 record (a 68% win rate) is tricky. So, yeah, they have lost 7 games since Phoenix, but up to that point they'd only lost 5 games overall.

Sure, it's annoying that they've recently lost three in a row, won three, lost two more. That's not great, but the 2009 Celtics (who own the franchise's longest winning streak at 19) also lost three in a row coming back from the all star break. We just don't remember it because they won 62 games and they were coming off a championship season.

What's concerning is that it feels like these losses are 'piling up' early in the season, but we started the year so hot that any return to earth was going to feel bad.

[Vermont Green]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

Outlier losses happen all of the time.  Those are different than sustained streaks of particularly good or bad play.  I don't disagree that such streaks happen, as well, but I think there's a root cause to them rather than random chance.

I don't know, look all of the top tier teams this year.  Bucks were 9-0, then went 3-5, then 7-1, then 4-7, and have now won 2 in a row.  The Nets were 9-11, reeled off 4 straight, lost 1, and then reeled off 12 in a row.  The Grizzlies have had two separate stints where they've lost 4 of 5 games. 

Basketball is just prone to significant shifts, both in game and game to game.  The C's may be a bit more extreme than is typical, but I think that is more that they were just so hot to start the year (well during that 17-2 period) that it makes the current 5-7 in the last 12 just seem so bad, but 5-7 periods happen every year from most of the good teams.  I suspect most 55 win level teams have a period that is similar to what the C's are currently doing.   

Both these things are true.  Yes, teams have stretches, especially teams that rely on the 3 as  much as the Celtics do.  But I have reached the point where I am concerned.  When I watch the games (lately), I don't like what I see.  They need to make adjustments and fix this.  It would be very dangerous to me if the team is feeling like, yeah, this is just a bad stretch, we are fine, nothing to worry about.  We'll hit our 3s next game.  We can play defense when we need to.

In my mind, the team should be worried.  This needs to serve as a wake up call.  I think that overall the character of the team is very good so I think they will deal with this appropriately.  But the attitude needs to be "this is unacceptable" not "this is just a bad stretch, all teams have bad stretches".

[angryguy77]

I see no evidence of that.

The team was 7th in defense coming into OKC despite playing most of the year without their all-defense center. They were 2nd in offense despite shooting under 33% from three over the last 16ish games. The fundamentals are still there.

The most important issue right now is the three point shooting, its just completely fallen off a cliff. How many time's during these games has Scal gone "Okay, that was a good look. I'll take that" after a miss? like 3 times a game. The C's are still getting good shots, its just everybody has decided to start missing at the same time. I consider that mostly freakishly bad luck. I think the shooting will level out to somewhere between the first 22 and last 15 games.

Record when shooting <34% from 3: 5-9
Record when shooting >34% from 3: 21-3

All you have to do is not be terrible, league average is like 36% from three. Just shoot average and don't turn the ball over and the team will win.

That is how it goes when you live and die by the 3.  I would like to see the Celtics take less 3s (they are second behind GSW in 3PA).  Go to the hoop more, you get to the line more.  The Celtics are 22nd in FTA.  FTA lead to more consistent scoring, less fluctuation, less subject to chance.  I think this stems from not having any real inside presence, especially without RWill.  We are always going to be a team that takes a lot of 3s, that is fine, but you can do other things too.

Yes, this the refrain you hear quite often. But I think you sort of hit the point here. They don't really have the personnel to be a "punish the rim" team.

If it was just a matter of willing yourself to do it, every team would do it. those things are hard, they require a skill set that Boston doesn't have a lot of. They have one guy who gets to the line a lot in Tatum, one guy a moderate amount in Brown and almost nobody else who really does. Those two and Brogdon a little are the only guys who routinely beat people off the dribble at all.

The could put more pressure on the rim, its not clear to me that would lead to better outcomes given the personnel they have. They have a team designed to generate 3 point looks and guys who can hit that shot. They aren't hitting that shot. I know its boring but my analysis is this: They need to hit shots.

I would wager these guys didn't make it to the NBA by being one trick ponies.
You design plays for higher % shots. Not everything needs to be an attempted layup.

If this team is truly constructed the way you say, then Brad should be fired immediately for being a knucklehead.

The thing is, we were not like this last year. This is a coaching problem, not player.

Last year we were still in the absolute doldrums, and I seem to remember a few posters, yourself included, complaining about the undisciplined play back then as well.

Yes we were, and then they came out of it because Ime was the guy able to do what Brad wasn't capable of. The 1st half of last year shouldn't be something this team allows itself to go back to. Wins matter. Good habits matter. Hopefully they lose the bad habits they're falling into.

I'm not calling for Joe's head....yet. He should get some more time. Right now it's concerning because they have a better roster than last year, yet they're playing bad.

Hope they turn it around soon because HCA will matter.

[angryguy77]

I would've thought this team learned. But it's the same every year. Play down to the competition. A win against the bucks or nets in the regular season is the same against OKC or some other trash team.

Why this team still believes they can waltz in and beat a team with no effort just on talent alone baffles me.

I expect a totally different effort against the Mavs tonight. It's totally about the competition they face.

It’s not just this team though, it’s all teams in the league. Every top team has gotten thrashed by some bottom feeder and the fan base has flagellated itself as a result.

Yes, that part is true.  Even very good teams lose to bottom feeders once in awhile.  Opposing teams get hot, or there are distractions that shift focus.

Whatever the Celtics are dealing with, though, it's not a one game aberration.

But it happens all of the time.  Look at the 73 win Warriors.  They had 9 losses, one of those was to the 17 win Lakers and they lost that game by 17 points.  The 44 win Blazers beat them by 32 points, the 44 win Pistons beat them by 18, the 42 win Mavericks beat them by 25, and the 33 win Bucks beat them by 13.  That is the greatest regular season team the sport has ever seen and they got whipped by bad to mediocre teams multiple times that season.  Even the 72 win Bulls lost a game by 32 points (and all their starters played).   It happens to some of the greatest teams in the sports history, so of course it will happen to teams that aren't that.

Did the warriors lose a back to back series against a team like Orlando?

[Kernewek]

I see no evidence of that.

The team was 7th in defense coming into OKC despite playing most of the year without their all-defense center. They were 2nd in offense despite shooting under 33% from three over the last 16ish games. The fundamentals are still there.

The most important issue right now is the three point shooting, its just completely fallen off a cliff. How many time's during these games has Scal gone "Okay, that was a good look. I'll take that" after a miss? like 3 times a game. The C's are still getting good shots, its just everybody has decided to start missing at the same time. I consider that mostly freakishly bad luck. I think the shooting will level out to somewhere between the first 22 and last 15 games.

Record when shooting <34% from 3: 5-9
Record when shooting >34% from 3: 21-3

All you have to do is not be terrible, league average is like 36% from three. Just shoot average and don't turn the ball over and the team will win.

That is how it goes when you live and die by the 3.  I would like to see the Celtics take less 3s (they are second behind GSW in 3PA).  Go to the hoop more, you get to the line more.  The Celtics are 22nd in FTA.  FTA lead to more consistent scoring, less fluctuation, less subject to chance.  I think this stems from not having any real inside presence, especially without RWill.  We are always going to be a team that takes a lot of 3s, that is fine, but you can do other things too.

Yes, this the refrain you hear quite often. But I think you sort of hit the point here. They don't really have the personnel to be a "punish the rim" team.

If it was just a matter of willing yourself to do it, every team would do it. those things are hard, they require a skill set that Boston doesn't have a lot of. They have one guy who gets to the line a lot in Tatum, one guy a moderate amount in Brown and almost nobody else who really does. Those two and Brogdon a little are the only guys who routinely beat people off the dribble at all.

The could put more pressure on the rim, its not clear to me that would lead to better outcomes given the personnel they have. They have a team designed to generate 3 point looks and guys who can hit that shot. They aren't hitting that shot. I know its boring but my analysis is this: They need to hit shots.

I would wager these guys didn't make it to the NBA by being one trick ponies.
You design plays for higher % shots. Not everything needs to be an attempted layup.

If this team is truly constructed the way you say, then Brad should be fired immediately for being a knucklehead.

The thing is, we were not like this last year. This is a coaching problem, not player.

Last year we were still in the absolute doldrums, and I seem to remember a few posters, yourself included, complaining about the undisciplined play back then as well.

Yes we were, and then they came out of it because Ime was the guy able to do what Brad wasn't capable of. The 1st half of last year shouldn't be something this team allows itself to go back to. Wins matter. Good habits matter. Hopefully they lose the bad habits they're falling into.

I'm not calling for Joe's head....yet. He should get some more time. Right now it's concerning because they have a better roster than last year, yet they're playing bad.

Hope they turn it around soon because HCA will matter.

I do agree with you a bit - I think if you look at the great Celtics teams of years past not counting this current squad (i.e. the 60+ win squads from '09 and further back) what you usually see is that the more frequent sets of losses come closer to the end of the season, when guys are resting more and generally the pole position for the playoffs is more established.

Excuse the MSPaint but this is what I mean:



That said, at our current rate we're still a 55-win team, which would mean we're going to lose 15 more games by the end of the season. And each one is going to be hard to watch, but I think (as said earlier) that's mostly because the C's seem to be a high variance team in their level of play.

[Rikibellevie]

I think most players like coach Mazz (prob not Pritchard), he looks like a players coach.
Personally I don t like his media speech with Fake calm and some Real negation about Real coaching or identity interrogation. The Jays have a more mature speech than hum on assuming the problems. But it is just the visible part of the iceberg and with a 26 12 record entering in the League we can t fire him. We could very well win with our Big 2 and a coach who is just rolling the dice ala Lue in Cavs or Walton in warriors. Maybe Stevens looked this year for a Big step of leadership for the Jays and I like what si see on their attitude.
 But if we fall in feb behind our 3/4 Rivals then maybe look at the coach market esp if a Guy like Nurse become available.

[CelticSooner]

I see no evidence of that.

The team was 7th in defense coming into OKC despite playing most of the year without their all-defense center. They were 2nd in offense despite shooting under 33% from three over the last 16ish games. The fundamentals are still there.

The most important issue right now is the three point shooting, its just completely fallen off a cliff. How many time's during these games has Scal gone "Okay, that was a good look. I'll take that" after a miss? like 3 times a game. The C's are still getting good shots, its just everybody has decided to start missing at the same time. I consider that mostly freakishly bad luck. I think the shooting will level out to somewhere between the first 22 and last 15 games.

Record when shooting <34% from 3: 5-9
Record when shooting >34% from 3: 21-3

All you have to do is not be terrible, league average is like 36% from three. Just shoot average and don't turn the ball over and the team will win.

That is how it goes when you live and die by the 3.  I would like to see the Celtics take less 3s (they are second behind GSW in 3PA).  Go to the hoop more, you get to the line more.  The Celtics are 22nd in FTA.  FTA lead to more consistent scoring, less fluctuation, less subject to chance.  I think this stems from not having any real inside presence, especially without RWill.  We are always going to be a team that takes a lot of 3s, that is fine, but you can do other things too.

Yes, this the refrain you hear quite often. But I think you sort of hit the point here. They don't really have the personnel to be a "punish the rim" team.

If it was just a matter of willing yourself to do it, every team would do it. those things are hard, they require a skill set that Boston doesn't have a lot of. They have one guy who gets to the line a lot in Tatum, one guy a moderate amount in Brown and almost nobody else who really does. Those two and Brogdon a little are the only guys who routinely beat people off the dribble at all.

The could put more pressure on the rim, its not clear to me that would lead to better outcomes given the personnel they have. They have a team designed to generate 3 point looks and guys who can hit that shot. They aren't hitting that shot. I know its boring but my analysis is this: They need to hit shots.

I would wager these guys didn't make it to the NBA by being one trick ponies.
You design plays for higher % shots. Not everything needs to be an attempted layup.

If this team is truly constructed the way you say, then Brad should be fired immediately for being a knucklehead.

The thing is, we were not like this last year. This is a coaching problem, not player.

Last year we were still in the absolute doldrums, and I seem to remember a few posters, yourself included, complaining about the undisciplined play back then as well.

Yes we were, and then they came out of it because Ime was the guy able to do what Brad wasn't capable of. The 1st half of last year shouldn't be something this team allows itself to go back to. Wins matter. Good habits matter. Hopefully they lose the bad habits they're falling into.

I'm not calling for Joe's head....yet. He should get some more time. Right now it's concerning because they have a better roster than last year, yet they're playing bad.

Hope they turn it around soon because HCA will matter.

I don’t think HCA is all that important. Didn’t matter much last season. The C’s just need to get back to playing good defense. We are now halfway through the season and that hasn’t improved enough. It’s about playing the right way more so than wins or losses. Stop relying so much on hitting threes.

[Goldstar88]

Definitely. No question about it…