Joeball - What's the Difference?

[Sophomore]

Off-ball screens and cuts seem a lot more common. If players are willing passers, there are more open shooters to find.

Tatum has leveled up in a very noticeable way. His finishing and ability to draw fouls is much better.

Obviously, the shooting is a lot better, and Brogdon means there is never a lull. We can catch fire at any point of the game.

[Hoopvortex]

Off-ball movement and pace seem to be the biggest differences to me on offence. Reminding me a bit of Golden State's offence over the last decade or so, with lots of double screens set for shooters. Either get an open shooter, or the defence over-corrects and one of the screeners flashes to the rim for an easier shot.

I always remember a couple of useful quotations from Chuck Daly, who was something of a quote factory:

"Defense can't guard two things in a row."

"Defense doesn't break down on the help, it breaks down on the recovery."

Your connection with the recent Golden State offense is a good one, I think. In fact, that reminds me of another Chuck Daly quotation:

"Offense is spacing and spacing is offense."

[Hoopvortex]

Tatum has leveled up in a very noticeable way. His finishing and ability to draw fouls is much better.

Yes, that’s kind of a big deal. His FTr is currently a stratospheric .409, which is miles beyond his career high (.300 last year). For this stat, the golden threshold is .300 or something (league average is like .260 right now).

On top of that, he’s shooting .873 from the line.

[Hoopvortex]

Essentially you have White and Brogdon instead of Shroder and Richardson (and to a lesser extent, Nesmith and Langford).

Good point.

By the way, Nesmith has started the last several games for Indianapolis.

[PAOBoston]

1. Overall talent. Brogdon was a huge get and White has been the White we expected last year to start the season.

2. Tatum and his aggressiveness and ability to get FTs.

3. Better pace on offense.

[Hoopvortex]

Your Boston Celtics currently have the best offense in NBA history. According to Basketball Reference's algorithm, they're scoring 122.2 points per 100 possessions. NBA.com's algorithm has them at 121.5 - either way, an astonishing number.

I think that I'm not alone in ranking Brad Stevens' personnel decisions highly; certainly the addition of a major shot-creator and scorer off the bench in Malcolm Brogdon has made a big difference (true to his word, that fulfilled a need that Brad identified in his post-season press conference).

Then, too, you could point to the development of players, above all of Jayson Tatum.

I'm interested to know what you see about anything having to do with the offense - why is it better? Why is it so much better than last season? It would be interesting to look at the Celtics' offense after the trade deadline last year.

But the main thing I'm interested in here is:

How is Joeball different than Imeball, and how much is it contributing to how good the offense has been? Those are two separate questions.

A few things stand out:

1. Marcus Smart has the ball more. This is especially interesting because his usage% has gone down. He has never had a usage over 20%, but as of today he's at a minuscule 16.6%. His assist% just went up over the golden threshold of 30, the highest of his career. Add to that the stellar Ast/TO ratio, over 3.5, and he's looking a lot like a classic pass-first point guard these days. More than assists, he does a great job of just being a connector, making the next pass.

2. There is more ball movement than last year. But equally or more important, there's more man movement. There are like a LOT more off-ball screens; almost 60 per game compared to about 48 last year. We're seeing a lot of variations on a Strong set, with two staggered screeners on the wing. Out of that, a lot of 45 cuts by one of the screeners into the lane, or if Brown is one of the screeners, taking a pass and driving.

3. Marcus Smart is posting up more. Especially striking is a postup in the lane - meaning that he's making a quick decision, including attacking the basket. In the lane outside the restricted area, Marcus is shooting an excellent .550, but he's more likely to pass to a shooter or a cutter. They're even running a pick and roll with Smart as the screener and Tatum as ballhandler to get them both a mismatch.

4. Jaylen Brown is getting to the rim more. Fewer threes and fewer lane shots outside the restricted area. His more efficient midrange game is a powerful weapon, since most defenses aren't geared toward defending it. But he isn't shooting it more, just better. Same thing with his FT shooting; his FTr is good but not elite at .261 - about the same as last year; but he's shooting a career-high from the line: .832, which is A-plus.  That's a huge achievement, looking at his career; it's just because of patient, steady work.

5. The Two Jays® have usage rates comparable to last season, with assist rates slightly lower.

What else?

Great post! Would like to add that Smart isn't really playing like a classic tablesetting point guard - a lot of his passes come from being a connective passer rather than your PG from the 90s pounding the ball for 15 seconds before making a Stockton/Rondo pass - he's much closer to Draymond than those guys in this regard.

I do want to make it clear that this isn't a bad thing - quick connective passing is one of the most valuable things for a high-end offence because you don't want players to hold the ball and keep it away from your stars/the actions you want to run.

Excellent observations, I think.

The game has changed profoundly since the far-reaching rule changes of 20 years ago. It has become more open and more athletic, and hence getting open shots means moving the ball in a bigger space.

Another big change is that the old 1-5 designations for players don’t fit the modern game very well.

[Hoopvortex]

3. Better pace on offense.

Definitely better space.

As for pace, I’ll bet what you mean is something like, more man and ball movement. This is definitely not “seven seconds or less”.

[RockinRyA]

3. Better pace on offense.

Definitely better space.

As for pace, I’ll bet what you mean is something like, more man and ball movement. This is definitely not “seven seconds or less”.

I dont know what he means but in my case it means making decisions quicker, allowing defenses less time to react. Getting into your sets faster also means you make them defend longer. This is why Im not a fan of walking the ball up. Even if you want to slow it down, you bring it up faster and have more time on the clock.

[PAOBoston]

3. Better pace on offense.

Definitely better space.

As for pace, I’ll bet what you mean is something like, more man and ball movement. This is definitely not “seven seconds or less”.

Correct. Pushing the ball, cutting, etc. The offense doesn’t feel stagnant like it did at times last year.

[Somebody]

Your Boston Celtics currently have the best offense in NBA history. According to Basketball Reference's algorithm, they're scoring 122.2 points per 100 possessions. NBA.com's algorithm has them at 121.5 - either way, an astonishing number.

I think that I'm not alone in ranking Brad Stevens' personnel decisions highly; certainly the addition of a major shot-creator and scorer off the bench in Malcolm Brogdon has made a big difference (true to his word, that fulfilled a need that Brad identified in his post-season press conference).

Then, too, you could point to the development of players, above all of Jayson Tatum.

I'm interested to know what you see about anything having to do with the offense - why is it better? Why is it so much better than last season? It would be interesting to look at the Celtics' offense after the trade deadline last year.

But the main thing I'm interested in here is:

How is Joeball different than Imeball, and how much is it contributing to how good the offense has been? Those are two separate questions.

A few things stand out:

1. Marcus Smart has the ball more. This is especially interesting because his usage% has gone down. He has never had a usage over 20%, but as of today he's at a minuscule 16.6%. His assist% just went up over the golden threshold of 30, the highest of his career. Add to that the stellar Ast/TO ratio, over 3.5, and he's looking a lot like a classic pass-first point guard these days. More than assists, he does a great job of just being a connector, making the next pass.

2. There is more ball movement than last year. But equally or more important, there's more man movement. There are like a LOT more off-ball screens; almost 60 per game compared to about 48 last year. We're seeing a lot of variations on a Strong set, with two staggered screeners on the wing. Out of that, a lot of 45 cuts by one of the screeners into the lane, or if Brown is one of the screeners, taking a pass and driving.

3. Marcus Smart is posting up more. Especially striking is a postup in the lane - meaning that he's making a quick decision, including attacking the basket. In the lane outside the restricted area, Marcus is shooting an excellent .550, but he's more likely to pass to a shooter or a cutter. They're even running a pick and roll with Smart as the screener and Tatum as ballhandler to get them both a mismatch.

4. Jaylen Brown is getting to the rim more. Fewer threes and fewer lane shots outside the restricted area. His more efficient midrange game is a powerful weapon, since most defenses aren't geared toward defending it. But he isn't shooting it more, just better. Same thing with his FT shooting; his FTr is good but not elite at .261 - about the same as last year; but he's shooting a career-high from the line: .832, which is A-plus.  That's a huge achievement, looking at his career; it's just because of patient, steady work.

5. The Two Jays® have usage rates comparable to last season, with assist rates slightly lower.

What else?

Great post! Would like to add that Smart isn't really playing like a classic tablesetting point guard - a lot of his passes come from being a connective passer rather than your PG from the 90s pounding the ball for 15 seconds before making a Stockton/Rondo pass - he's much closer to Draymond than those guys in this regard.

I do want to make it clear that this isn't a bad thing - quick connective passing is one of the most valuable things for a high-end offence because you don't want players to hold the ball and keep it away from your stars/the actions you want to run.

Excellent observations, I think.

The game has changed profoundly since the far-reaching rule changes of 20 years ago. It has become more open and more athletic, and hence getting open shots means moving the ball in a bigger space.

Another big change is that the old 1-5 designations for players don’t fit the modern game very well.

I just think that basketball is returning to its roots - positions were very fluid before the 80s/90s. You can turn on any old basketball game from the 60s/70s and see some interesting stuff that you will find in the modern game: a good example would be those mid-70s Braves teams that used Bob McAdoo as a weakside helper ala Robert Williams last season by putting him on weaker offensive forwards and using their forward to guard the centre. It yielded decent defences in '75 and '76, which was impressive given that teams without dominant defensive big men (McAdoo was an above average/good defender, but he was certainly not an anchor) were usually terrible on defence in that era.

Someone on this forum also posted a snippet from an old newspaper that noted the 60s Lakers playing Jerry West (a Wade-esque combo guard on defence) at forward in a win against our beloved Celtics in a regular season game!

[SHAQATTACK]

I like his consistent  level of intensity  personal playerfocus as he coaches.  While Not trying to over coach or hinder the teams natural cohesion they have worked so hard to achieve.

[Yuckabuck33]

Agree about Smart. The guy was mired in a stubborn style of play for years, and somehow has improved much more at 27 and 28 than he did his entire prior career. I admit I had given up on him.

In fairness to Marcus, his style of play was exactly what hid coaches wanted him to do. Ime was the 1st to firmly put him at the point and he has prospered. He is on record last year that it frustrated him that he was never trusted him to be the #1 point guard until Ime.

[Hoopvortex]

I like his consistent  level of intensity  personal playerfocus as he coaches.  While Not trying to over coach or hinder the teams natural cohesion they have worked so hard to achieve.

I think you’re right. He’s a player’s coach who doesn’t call a lot of plays. Recently there was a debate on here about his timeout tactics; however you might feel about it, his restraint about calling them is consistent with being a player’s coach.

As young as the team is, they’ve gone deep in the playoffs for several years now. Maybe Joe is exactly the coach they need.

[Silas]

His decision to shoot more 3s is a huge difference.  It's one helluva weapon when the team shoots 40.2% and your top four bench players all shoot at least 43%.  In addition, the FG% for the team is 49.4% along with FT% being 84.4%.  Bottom line is it's easy to be good when you have players that make a high percentage of their shots and know how to play good defense (credit Ime).

[hpantazo]

His decision to shoot more 3s is a huge difference.  It's one helluva weapon when the team shoots 40.2% and your top four bench players all shoot at least 43%.  In addition, the FG% for the team is 49.4% along with FT% being 84.4%.  Bottom line is it's easy to be good when you have players that make a high percentage of their shots and know how to play good defense (credit Ime).

That percentage is high because the ball movement is vastly improved though. The team has also done a much better job of cutting without the ball and keeping the defenses spread out to create space.

Playing with a much faster pace has also created more open looks.