Grant Williams Alternates?

[Moranis]

It seems that the Celtics front office and Williams are at an impasse in regards to his financial value. If this continues through the season perhaps he needs to be moved?

Grant Williams is such a polarizing figure, he can be surprisingly effective, then completely non-existent.

The problem with trading him if finding returning value and the fact his positional role is very hard to find.

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One idea I had was if the Hornets struggle early this season they might tank and look to retool their roster.

Hornet: Williams, Hauser, Celtics 1st round pick

Celtics: P.J Washington

Grant Williams is a better player than Washington. He's a much better defender and shooter.

No, he is not. Worse scorer, rebounder, and passer. Shooting difference is minute. Washington is a better career shooter on more attempts, and over the last two seasons the 3PT % is 2 points in Grant's favour (on nearly 2 less attempts).

Yes he is. He's been a signficant rotation player for a playoff team and won several games. PJ Washington continues to lose rotation minutes on a lottery team.

PJ Washington is a poor defender, which is the main reason he's been losing minutes. Williams blows him out of the water in that regard.

All other stats are jaded in the favor of the player who gets more time on a worse team.

Washington has essentially been a Terrance Jones or one of the Morris twins early in their career.

I'm a big fan of Washington and would love to have him in our rotation. I think he has potential to improve, but I think we will see that the market doesn't value what he brings as much as Williams when they get their next contracts.

It has absolutely nothing to do with their minutes. Per possession comparisons avoid minutes bias, and they are as equally incomparable because PJ is better at everything.

The defensive difference is being exaggerated by you, as the shooting one was initially too. Poor is an overstatement - he sits in the mediocre range for most defensive analytics, just like Grant does. Both have glaring weaknesses on D, but generally are okay.

Winning is entirely dependent on the situation. It's not PJ's fault he was drafted to a basket case.

This is exactly where advanced stats break down. I love advanced stats, but they often (not always) can't differentiate in situations like this. We see it over and over again.

Often, comparing a player on a lottery team to a player on a winning team is like comparing apples to oranges. The situation is completely different, the shot opportunities are different, the role is different.

Again, I argue that we will see how the NBA values each player in their next contract. I like Washington a lot, but to this point in his career he has not proven he can contribute to a winning situation. However, that's what makes him an excellent trade candidate. I think i was the first one last year to suggest that he may be a good player to target. I like the guy's potential a lot on a winning basketball team.

But at this point, Grant has proven to be able to have a significant and valuable role on a winning basketball team. He's a more proven commodity and that will come out in their next contracts (or lack thereof in Washington's case).

Playing on good teams can also artificially inflate stats of role players to make them seem better than they are.  We see this time and time again as well.  So it works both ways.  And given that Grant's worst season by most advanced metrics was the season the team was 36-36, I think Grant is simply just benefitting more from being on a good team than anything else.

[Vermont Green]

PJ Washington seems like a decent player.  Maybe a tick better than Grant based on general athleticism.  But not Hauser and a pick better. 

[Kuberski33]

I'm not concerned. I think Grant will be restricted as a FA next summer if he isn't extended tomorrow which means the Celtics can still just match if another team throws him a big bag and I'm skeptical there will be a team out there who wants Grant so much they'll offer him something the Celtics won't want to match.

For him to get a sizeable offer, he'd have to be excellent this season and if he's that good this year then we'll likely having a starting PF job waiting for him.

Someone will come in and overpay for him. Always happens in free agency. A young team will see him as a glue guy and will think that adding him will help change their defensive identity. Key role guys on good teams always get paid more than they're really worth once they hit the market.

To me the only way he's staying is if they can extend him now.

[Vermont Green]

I'm not concerned. I think Grant will be restricted as a FA next summer if he isn't extended tomorrow which means the Celtics can still just match if another team throws him a big bag and I'm skeptical there will be a team out there who wants Grant so much they'll offer him something the Celtics won't want to match.

For him to get a sizeable offer, he'd have to be excellent this season and if he's that good this year then we'll likely having a starting PF job waiting for him.

Someone will come in and overpay for him. Always happens in free agency. A young team will see him as a glue guy and will think that adding him will help change their defensive identity. Key role guys on good teams always get paid more than they're really worth once they hit the market.

To me the only way he's staying is if they can extend him now.

It is true that it may happen that someone comes in and overpays.  But we can match.  None of us know what numbers are being discussed but if extending him now means overpaying now instead of later, what is the difference?

And to overpay, a team will need cap space.  Or they can do a sign and trade with an exemption if they have one.  But at that point, we can either work out a sign and trade or just match, like PHO did with Ayton.  It would have been nice to work out an extension, but I don't see it as the only way he is staying.  There are plenty of other ways for him to stay.

Actually, the only way that he leaves is if the Celtics decide the offer is too high to match.  I see that as the least likely outcome.

[Kuberski33]

I'm not concerned. I think Grant will be restricted as a FA next summer if he isn't extended tomorrow which means the Celtics can still just match if another team throws him a big bag and I'm skeptical there will be a team out there who wants Grant so much they'll offer him something the Celtics won't want to match.

For him to get a sizeable offer, he'd have to be excellent this season and if he's that good this year then we'll likely having a starting PF job waiting for him.

Someone will come in and overpay for him. Always happens in free agency. A young team will see him as a glue guy and will think that adding him will help change their defensive identity. Key role guys on good teams always get paid more than they're really worth once they hit the market.

To me the only way he's staying is if they can extend him now.

It is true that it may happen that someone comes in and overpays.  But we can match.  None of us know what numbers are being discussed but if extending him now means overpaying now instead of later, what is the difference?

And to overpay, a team will need cap space.  Or they can do a sign and trade with an exemption if they have one.  But at that point, we can either work out a sign and trade or just match, like PHO did with Ayton.  It would have been nice to work out an extension, but I don't see it as the only way he is staying.  There are plenty of other ways for him to stay.

Actually, the only way that he leaves is if the Celtics decide the offer is too high to match.  I see that as the least likely outcome.

I see that as the more likely outcome, especially if he has a good season. If you're a team trying to lure someone like him, your best chance is to make an offer that's too high for the current team to match.  Just look at what happens the first week of free agency every year. 

And from Grant's standpoint, if the team is a crappy one, he just negotiates a player option for an opt out after year 2 to cover himself.