Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million

[GreenlyGreeny]

Does this mean LeBron and some Hollywood cabal will not be able to steal the Suns for pennies on the dollar and relocate them to Las Vegas? What will they think of next? Oh, I kid.

In all seriousness, Anthony Edwards has a much bigger impact on boys and teenagers than Sarver, who has been hounded by allegations without any audio/visual evidence (the Commissioner knows all the details, including the hearsay, and feels the punishment is commensurate with the clearly inappropriate behavior, so we really ought to move on here…dude is losing an entire year of his franchise in its prime contending for a title and $10 million…that’s quite a bit of money to anybody still…and keep in mind how the media likes to blow things out of proportion without everybody having all the evidence/facts…and so many people insist on being self-righteous and holier than thou…the Commish has ruled after reviewing all facts, so let’s move on, right?)

Now what message is the NBA going to send by not really responding to Anthony Edwards’ recorded comments? Where’s LeBron’s commentary on that, BTW? Oh, that does not serve his business interests? My, oh, my.

[gouki88]

Does this mean LeBron and some Hollywood cabal will not be able to steal the Suns for pennies on the dollar and relocate them to Las Vegas? What will they think of next? Oh, I kid.

In all seriousness, Anthony Edwards has a much bigger impact on boys and teenagers than Sarver, who has been hounded by allegations without any audio/visual evidence (the Commissioner knows all the details, including the hearsay, and feels the punishment is commensurate with the clearly inappropriate behavior, so we really ought to move on here…dude is losing an entire year of his franchise in its prime contending for a title and $10 million…that’s quite a bit of money to anybody still…and keep in mind how the media likes to blow things out of proportion without everybody having all the evidence/facts…and so many people insist on being self-righteous and holier than thou…the Commish has ruled after reviewing all facts, so let’s move on, right?)

Now what message is the NBA going to send by not really responding to Anthony Edwards’ recorded comments? Where’s LeBron’s commentary on that, BTW? Oh, that does not serve his business interests? My, oh, my.

You're not seriously equating consistent, repeat patterns of sexual and other misconduct from a near-billionaire to one comment from Edwards, are you?

[Kernewek]

Getting back on topic here, does anyone think the players will rise up and force an upgrade in punishment for Sarver? I think it would be hard for a Chris Paul to step up a year + later with outrage. I don’t expect Lebron to do much more than his tweet tonight, but would be interesting if he stayed after it.

I think it's a very tricky situation for the players to be in, because at the end of the day ownership has a vast majority of the power in the NBA - people complain that players can choose where the want to play, et al, but at the end of the day the people signing the cheques are the ones who are in control, and they very legitimately control these guys' earning potential outside of a handful of absolute superstars who are good enough to be immune to blackballing.

Not to draw an equivocation between the two, but I wouldn't discount Chris Paul coming out the same way loads of people spoke up about Harvey Weinstein years (or decades) after the fact. Lots of people stay silent about bad things that happen at the workplace, because the friction & damage to your job prospects isn't worth it. In fact, that's usually what allows guys like Sterling and Sarver to get away with it in the first place.

[Moranis]

Kern,  Chris Paul has already come out against Sarver.  He is quoted in the article I quoted focused on Lebron. Here are his tweets.

.https://twitter.com/CP3/status/1570220418191228928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1570220418191228928%7Ctwgr%5E10dec3c2e8974eda73308aefe82dfe94725c1d8d%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.espn.com%2Fnba%2Fstory%2F_%2Fid%2F34593743%2Fafter-robert-sarver-investigation-lebron-james-adamant-nba-definitely-got-wrong

[Kernewek]

Kern,  Chris Paul has already come out against Sarver.  He is quoted in the article I quoted focused on Lebron. Here are his tweets.

.https://twitter.com/CP3/status/1570220418191228928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1570220418191228928%7Ctwgr%5E10dec3c2e8974eda73308aefe82dfe94725c1d8d%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.espn.com%2Fnba%2Fstory%2F_%2Fid%2F34593743%2Fafter-robert-sarver-investigation-lebron-james-adamant-nba-definitely-got-wrong

Tp for that - haven't had much time to read anything beyond this thread unfortunately.

[Moranis]

Kern,  Chris Paul has already come out against Sarver.  He is quoted in the article I quoted focused on Lebron. Here are his tweets.

.https://twitter.com/CP3/status/1570220418191228928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1570220418191228928%7Ctwgr%5E10dec3c2e8974eda73308aefe82dfe94725c1d8d%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.espn.com%2Fnba%2Fstory%2F_%2Fid%2F34593743%2Fafter-robert-sarver-investigation-lebron-james-adamant-nba-definitely-got-wrong

Tp for that - haven't had much time to read anything beyond this thread unfortunately.

Yeah.  Once Lebron went public it opened up the flood gates a bit more.  So with Paul and James, you now have probably the 2 most vocal and respected player leaders coming out and saying the punishment wasn't enough.  I do wonder if Paul is going to force the issue since he actually plays for the Suns.  If he came out and said he didn't want to play for Sarver again, I think the NBA would have a very real problem that they have to deal with.

[Kernewek]

Absolutely agreed - again, I've not got the time to follow this as closely as I would like, but ultimately what forced Sterling out was the pressure from the players to refuse to play for/against the Clippers as long as he was owner. If it follows suit with the Suns, I think a sale is inevitable (it's not as if the waiting list for NBA teams is particularly wanting for interested groups).

[Roy H.]

Absolutely agreed - again, I've not got the time to follow this as closely as I would like, but ultimately what forced Sterling out was the pressure from the players to refuse to play for/against the Clippers as long as he was owner. If it follows suit with the Suns, I think a sale is inevitable (it's not as if the waiting list for NBA teams is particularly wanting for interested groups).

There are two avenues to that:  Sarver agreeing to sell, or the owners forcing him out.

I don't know a ton about Sarver, other than he doesn't strike me as the type of guy who will voluntarily sell.  I mean, this is a guy who uses the N-word even when he knows its taboo, thinking its funny to use it in anecdotes.  He waves his junk in the face of other employees.  The report says he thrives on conflict. 

At the same time, will owners force him out?  How many of them are secretly thinking, I could be next?

[Kernewek]

Absolutely agreed - again, I've not got the time to follow this as closely as I would like, but ultimately what forced Sterling out was the pressure from the players to refuse to play for/against the Clippers as long as he was owner. If it follows suit with the Suns, I think a sale is inevitable (it's not as if the waiting list for NBA teams is particularly wanting for interested groups).

There are two avenues to that:  Sarver agreeing to sell, or the owners forcing him out.

I don't know a ton about Sarver, other than he doesn't strike me as the type of guy who will voluntarily sell.  I mean, this is a guy who uses the N-word even when he knows its taboo, thinking its funny to use it in anecdotes.  He waves his junk in the face of other employees.  The report says he thrives on conflict. 

At the same time, will owners force him out?  How many of them are secretly thinking, I could be next?

No doubt - and the NBA is (obviously) trying to dodge a lawsuit where Sarver's lawyers say "his behaviour is no worse than the other owners, they aren't being forced to sell" and all the skeletons come out to play. But why not (for example) issue a lifetime ban for him in addition to the 'maximum' financial penalty, or do other things to effectively force a sale if they're not willing to do it explicitly?

edit: definitely not the type to voluntarily sell: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1569726526899322887

[Moranis]

Absolutely agreed - again, I've not got the time to follow this as closely as I would like, but ultimately what forced Sterling out was the pressure from the players to refuse to play for/against the Clippers as long as he was owner. If it follows suit with the Suns, I think a sale is inevitable (it's not as if the waiting list for NBA teams is particularly wanting for interested groups).

There are two avenues to that:  Sarver agreeing to sell, or the owners forcing him out.

I don't know a ton about Sarver, other than he doesn't strike me as the type of guy who will voluntarily sell.  I mean, this is a guy who uses the N-word even when he knows its taboo, thinking its funny to use it in anecdotes.  He waves his junk in the face of other employees.  The report says he thrives on conflict. 

At the same time, will owners force him out?  How many of them are secretly thinking, I could be next?

No doubt - and the NBA is (obviously) trying to dodge a lawsuit where Sarver's lawyers say "his behaviour is no worse than the other owners, they aren't being forced to sell" and all the skeletons come out to play. But why not (for example) issue a lifetime ban for him in addition to the 'maximum' financial penalty, or do other things to effectively force a sale if they're not willing to do it explicitly?

I'm fairly confident that he got banned a year because that is all Sarver would agree to, so to do more would have been a lawsuit. 

And here is the thing, if other owners are doing the same kind of stuff Sarver was doing, then they should be forced out as well.  That type of toxic work environment, which is caused almost solely by the owner, shouldn't exist and certainly shouldn't be tolerated.  Even in Dallas, it wasn't Cuban, it was the CEO, who they fired and replaced with a highly respected black female CEO from AT&T.  In the 4 years since, she has completely revamped the Mavericks culture, but had it been Cuban and not the former CEO that created the toxic environment, I think he should have been forced to sell, just as they did with Sterling, and just as they should do with Sarver. 

[GreenlyGreeny]

Does this mean LeBron and some Hollywood cabal will not be able to steal the Suns for pennies on the dollar and relocate them to Las Vegas? What will they think of next? Oh, I kid.

In all seriousness, Anthony Edwards has a much bigger impact on boys and teenagers than Sarver, who has been hounded by allegations without any audio/visual evidence (the Commissioner knows all the details, including the hearsay, and feels the punishment is commensurate with the clearly inappropriate behavior, so we really ought to move on here…dude is losing an entire year of his franchise in its prime contending for a title and $10 million…that’s quite a bit of money to anybody still…and keep in mind how the media likes to blow things out of proportion without everybody having all the evidence/facts…and so many people insist on being self-righteous and holier than thou…the Commish has ruled after reviewing all facts, so let’s move on, right?)

Now what message is the NBA going to send by not really responding to Anthony Edwards’ recorded comments? Where’s LeBron’s commentary on that, BTW? Oh, that does not serve his business interests? My, oh, my.

You're not seriously equating consistent, repeat patterns of sexual and other misconduct from a near-billionaire to one comment from Edwards, are you?

We have audio/visual evidence of what Edwards did, and anybody who thinks this is a one-time thing is some naive. Where’s the A/V evidence of what Sarver did? And who has more of an impact on youth, some old owner most kids have never heard of, or a number one overall pick who is one of the biggest basketball players between Minneapolis and California? Do you really think that no kid has seen the video of what Edwards said and emulated it since? Do you really think bullied/denigrated LGBTQ youth who are exposed to such comments just shrug and are not mentally affected by a hostile environment? LGBTQ youth who have been bullied and/or feel unwelcome by their environment die of suicide everyday. Who did Sarver affect that decided to die by suicide as a result? Which of the two has contributed to a problem that results in suicides of youth?

No, the two situations are not at all comparable. Edwards’ comment has considerably affected LGBTQ teenagers. Why is the NBA focused on Sarver after the Commish gave the maximum allowable penalty, when one of their players’ behavior is considerably affecting youth in America?

Oh, is it because some people know people who want to force a sale of the Suns? Oh, it’s just business. Well, is business more important than helping America’s LGBTQ youth feel safe and welcome in America?

[Kernewek]

The only real line to be drawn between Edwards and Sarver is that the number of players who are engage in homophobic behaviour & language is likely much larger than the league would like to admit.

Just like most of the owners are much worse in their behaviour than the league would like to admit.

Otherwise we should leave the Edwards discussion in the Edwards thread, I think.

[GreenlyGreeny]

The only real line to be drawn between Edwards and Sarver is that the number of players who are engage in homophobic behaviour & language is likely much larger than the league would like to admit.

Just like most of the owners are much worse in their behaviour than the league would like to admit.

Otherwise we should leave the Edwards discussion in the Edwards thread, I think.

Everyone is trying to act outraged by Sarver, but there’s no A/V evidence and nobody died by suicide as a result of Sarver’s behavior. Bullying of LGBTQ youth has been a thing forever because of nonsense like Edwards’ comments being tolerated. NBA players need to police Edwards before thinking they have some standing to question the Commissioner’s maximum penalty for Sarver. And anybody who is just so outraged by Sarver’s reported behavior has to look in the mirror and ask them self why they think Sarver should be banned from the NBA for life but Edwards should be given a $50K fine, particularly given the absolute absence of audio/visual evidence against Sarver and how Edwards’ comments do considerable harm to minors (minors were obviously not impacted by Sarver’s behavior).

Let’s help LGBTQ youth by being outraged such that Edwards gets banned for a year, and not be another puppet in someone’s quest to essentially steal the Suns from Sarver, which is probably what most of this is all about. The owners know if Sarver goes down over this without any A/V evidence and no jury finding him guilty of a crime or civil wrongdoing, any one of them could be next.

We literally have a video of an NBA player with anti-gay slurs that was posted online by the player. It’s being emulated by some wayward youth, and affecting LGBTQ youth. The NBAPA should request the NBA suspend Edwards for a year for this. This should be the moment to show this is no longer tolerated. Like Sarver, Edwards can spend the next year thinking about how his behaviors affected others and can come back rehabilitated with a second chance given.

[Kernewek]

I refuse to entertain the idea that two bad things cannot be judged separately, and I remain surprised by just how controversial this take seems to be for certain people.

It's almost as ridiculous as this incessant equivocation between 'dislike' or 'disagreement' and 'outrage.'

So - what people think about Edwards does not necessarily have a real place in any discussion they may have about Sarver. There's absolutely no reason for the opposite to be the case.

And, while what I think about Edwards has no real place in anything I post about Sarver, I do think Edwards is an idiot, and have said as much.

Am I now in the clear to say "Sarver sucks and should sell the team"? Or do I have to jump through more imaginary and arbitrary purity tests?

[GreenlyGreeny]

So - what people think about Edwards does not necessarily have a real place in any discussion they may have about Sarver. There's absolutely no reason for the opposite to be the case.

One instance has A/V evidence and the other does not. One affects youth, and contributes to future bullying of LGBTQ youth who choose to die by suicide; the other does not affect youth or indirectly cause suicides.

It’s pretty clear which instance is actually worse in terms of impact on society. But Nobody is calling for Edwards to be forced to leave the NBA. So many are, like, “oh, players will be players - $50,000 fine and move on.” Yet because certain actors try to insist that Sarver must sell, because there are actors behind the scenes who are using the media to try to manipulate a sale at discount, we act more outraged about Sarver?

An NBA player has contributed to a problem that causes LGBTQ youth to die by suicide. That’s blood. Sarver does not have blood on his hands. Where’s the calls for a one year suspension for Edwards so the penalty is comparable to Sarver? It’s coming from here. But not from others. And I see nobody saying both Sarver and Edwards deserve a lifetime ban, but plenty of folks saying Sarver should receive such treatment. Again, he has no blood on his hands…