Is Horford a top-25 PF?

[liam]

Sadly:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sixers-tobias-harris-ranked-9th-205258415.html

[pokeKingCurtis]

Being in the top 25 isn't special, given that there are 30 teams, each one with a starting PF. Horford did very well last season, and he has a game that seems like it will age well, but he's 36, and age has to catch up with him at some point fairly soon.

Better questions, where does he rank among "forwards". Where does timelord rank among forwards.

How about their ranking among centers.

Weirdly my gut feeling is they would rank pretty high in the centers list.

[Vermont Green]

With this discussion on position, I checked the roster on the Celtics "official" website and they had players categorized with the following positions:

G      Smart, Brogdon, White, Pritchard, Thomas, Davison
G-F   Brown
F-G   Tatum
F       Gallinari, Grant, Hauser
C-F    RWill, Horford, Kornet
C       Kabengele

Both Horford and RWill are listed as C-F.  Since Brown is G-F and Tatum is F-C I am guessing this implies that Brown is more G than F and that Tatum is more F than G (which makes sense).  By that logic, they have both Horford and RWill as more C than F so if Hoopshype followed that, they would list them as Centers.  Apparently we don't have any F-C (I would say that this would apply to Gallinari for example).

One thing that stands out when you see it this way is we have a lot of Guards.

[Vermont Green]

I looked at this a little more.  Last season, Horford averaged about 30 min per game in 69 games.  There were 51 games where both Horford and RWill played.  In those games, they were on the court together about 15 min.  I view this as Horford was the PF when he was on the court with RWill and the C when not (the other 15 minutes).  The vast majority of the remaining time, Horford was on the court with Grant.

There were other line ups where it was Horford + Freedom (only 5 games) or Horford + Theis (12 games) but these did not add up to all that much and with Horford + Theis, I am not sure who is the PF and who is the C.

I guess this is just more data to say that Horford could be either a C or a PF.  Last season, the only true PF we had, who could actually play, other than Horford was Grant so Horford was forced to play more PF.  This season we have Gallinari and Grant.  We have more and better options at PF.  I think what this will mean is that we will see an even higher percentage of Horford at C with either Gallinari or Grant at PF.  And maybe fewer than 30 min overall.  Horford may start games at PF but I expect will play more as the back up C than as a PF.

Vonleh right now looks to be the guy to play the fill in or insurance minutes at C (I don't expect much from Kornet).  That will be fine for the back to back night off for Horford or RWill here and there but if there is any extended injury to either of them, the Celtics will probably need something more than Vonleh.  But who knows, Vonleh may surprise.  He did have one good season with the Knicks.

[Silas]

How come no discussion about Kabengele as a backup center?  It will be interesting to see how he compares to Vonleh at the beginning of the season.  My gut says both could be better than Kornet, recognizing that Brad says positive things about him.  Can't wait for the season to start.

[pokeKingCurtis]

With this discussion on position, I checked the roster on the Celtics "official" website and they had players categorized with the following positions:

G      Smart, Brogdon, White, Pritchard, Thomas, Davison
G-F   Brown
F-G   Tatum
F       Gallinari, Grant, Hauser
C-F    RWill, Horford, Kornet
C       Kabengele

Both Horford and RWill are listed as C-F.  Since Brown is G-F and Tatum is F-C I am guessing this implies that Brown is more G than F and that Tatum is more F than G (which makes sense).  By that logic, they have both Horford and RWill as more C than F so if Hoopshype followed that, they would list them as Centers.  Apparently we don't have any F-C (I would say that this would apply to Gallinari for example).

One thing that stands out when you see it this way is we have a lot of Guards.

Well Brogdon and Smart can almost definitely play 3, and White can at times too. 3/4 of these dudes are just huge guards (the fourth being Pritchard).

[pokeKingCurtis]

How come no discussion about Kabengele as a backup center?  It will be interesting to see how he compares to Vonleh at the beginning of the season.  My gut says both could be better than Kornet, recognizing that Brad says positive things about him.  Can't wait for the season to start.

Trevion was my binkie (me not being huge into college ball and basically just following some highlights).

But you're right, Kabengele stood out. Quite interesting, like the Begarin and the JD Davison, and even the Derrick White moves. Brad keeps hitting singles (where Ainge is just a slugger hitting home runs - not a baseball fan so apologies if I botched the hell out of this)

[Vermont Green]

With this discussion on position, I checked the roster on the Celtics "official" website and they had players categorized with the following positions:

G      Smart, Brogdon, White, Pritchard, Thomas, Davison
G-F   Brown
F-G   Tatum
F       Gallinari, Grant, Hauser
C-F    RWill, Horford, Kornet
C       Kabengele

Both Horford and RWill are listed as C-F.  Since Brown is G-F and Tatum is F-C I am guessing this implies that Brown is more G than F and that Tatum is more F than G (which makes sense).  By that logic, they have both Horford and RWill as more C than F so if Hoopshype followed that, they would list them as Centers.  Apparently we don't have any F-C (I would say that this would apply to Gallinari for example).

One thing that stands out when you see it this way is we have a lot of Guards.

Well Brogdon and Smart can almost definitely play 3, and White can at times too. 3/4 of these dudes are just huge guards (the fourth being Pritchard).

I don't disagree that Smart and Brogdon "can" play forward or SF but that is not their natural position.  I think the Celtics want to paly with two wings.  That was their most used and most successful line up last season (with Brown and Tatum).  I expect that when one of Brown or Tatum is out, Brogdon will be on the court as that second wing but he is really more guard than forward.  A line up of say:

Smart
Brogdon
Brown
Horford
RWill

...is really 3 guards and two bigs.  It is not the end of the world but Brogdon is more of a combo guard than a wing so the line up is not 2 wings.  I believe that there will be times when the Celtics will wish they had another established forward who can play as a wing.  We can get by with playing our guards in that role but Brown and Tatum will miss games along the way and we will be thin for that role.  Right now, Sam Hauser is the back up to Tatum at the traditional small forward position.  I am not sure that Hauser is quite ready for even a fill in role.  At best there is no track record for him as anything but a garbage time NBA player.  Hauser was behind Nesmith last season.

Again, I do not view this as a fatal flaw or anything terribly serious, just a soft spot in the roster that I hope they are able to address.

[Moranis]

If Smart or Brogdon is playing SF, the Celtics are in trouble.

[sgrogan]

If Smart or Brogdon is playing SF, the Celtics are in trouble.

I agree, but what is the alternative when one of Tatum or Brown is out?

Gallanari, Grant, Houser?

[Vermont Green]

If Smart or Brogdon is playing SF, the Celtics are in trouble.

I agree, but what is the alternative when one of Tatum or Brown is out?

Gallanari, Grant, Houser?

So if Tatum is out for rest or whatever, Brown will likely start at SF (which is perfectly fine) with Brogdon staring as the SG.  But at some point, Brown will have to rest and we really don't have another SF to play at that point other than Hauser.  I don't see Gallinari or Grant as viable options.

What will happen is that we will end up playing with more guards and no SF.  Not the end of the world if it is a limited basis but this will be more of an issue if Tatum or Brown miss a week or a month.

[jambr380]

If Smart or Brogdon is playing SF, the Celtics are in trouble.

I agree, but what is the alternative when one of Tatum or Brown is out?

Gallanari, Grant, Houser?

So if Tatum is out for rest or whatever, Brown will likely start at SF (which is perfectly fine) with Brogdon staring as the SG.  But at some point, Brown will have to rest and we really don't have another SF to play at that point other than Hauser.  I don't see Gallinari or Grant as viable options.

What will happen is that we will end up playing with more guards and no SF.  Not the end of the world if it is a limited basis but this will be more of an issue if Tatum or Brown miss a week or a month.

What do you mean? If Tatum is out, Brown will play SF; if Brown is out, Tatum will play SF (and he will anyway, since we run a 2-big line-up). Do you mean if both are out? If that's the case, then we are in trouble anyway.

[Erik]

Combination of three potential reasons:
1) They're considering Al a Center
2) The writer doesn't watch basketball.
3) The writer doesn't value defense/intangibles very high. He probably voted for Gobert for DPOY, for example.

Based on this list of "way too soon stars" and "people who haven't accomplished a whole lot" I'd put him after the top 5 group (which I believe is correct as it's a no brainer) and POSSIBLY bring up Draymond in front of him. He's at least #7 and would certainly be valued like that if we're talking about just 1 season and not a large contract (value vs trade value). Brad would be getting a lot of phone calls in a scenario like that, I'd imagine.

Tell me the other people who can play like this on the biggest stage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHxbF8ulQTg
Elite (at his position) in defense, ball handling, game IQ, shooting, passing, leadership and hustle. He just shot 48% from 3 in the playoffs. 

[sgrogan]

If Smart or Brogdon is playing SF, the Celtics are in trouble.

I agree, but what is the alternative when one of Tatum or Brown is out?

Gallanari, Grant, Houser?

So if Tatum is out for rest or whatever, Brown will likely start at SF (which is perfectly fine) with Brogdon staring as the SG.  But at some point, Brown will have to rest and we really don't have another SF to play at that point other than Hauser.  I don't see Gallinari or Grant as viable options.

What will happen is that we will end up playing with more guards and no SF.  Not the end of the world if it is a limited basis but this will be more of an issue if Tatum or Brown miss a week or a month.

I agree with this as well, but whether we say we are playing a 3 guard lineup or Brogdon at the SF is the same thing. And if Brown is out instead of Tatum the result is the same. Tatum will need rest and Brown won't be available to back him up.

Tatum is durable and averages 73 games a year. Brown averages 67 games. If the missed games don't overlap, it's 24 games, over 1/4 of the season.

No team has starting quality players as backups for every position, and it isn't the end of the world. But it is a reason for concern for a team that is expected to compete for homecourt in the playoffs and make a championship run.

[sgrogan]

If Smart or Brogdon is playing SF, the Celtics are in trouble.

I agree, but what is the alternative when one of Tatum or Brown is out?

Gallanari, Grant, Houser?

So if Tatum is out for rest or whatever, Brown will likely start at SF (which is perfectly fine) with Brogdon staring as the SG.  But at some point, Brown will have to rest and we really don't have another SF to play at that point other than Hauser.  I don't see Gallinari or Grant as viable options.

What will happen is that we will end up playing with more guards and no SF.  Not the end of the world if it is a limited basis but this will be more of an issue if Tatum or Brown miss a week or a month.

What do you mean? If Tatum is out, Brown will play SF; if Brown is out, Tatum will play SF (and he will anyway, since we run a 2-big line-up). Do you mean if both are out? If that's the case, then we are in trouble anyway.

Brown and Tatum don't play 48 mpg. Brown is Tatum's backup.
When one is out there are at least 12 mpg to fill at the SF position.