GOAT: Jordan or James?

[Roy H.]

Sam Smith, author of The Jordan Rules, perhaps the definitive book on Michael Jordan and a former investigative reporter himself, argued on Andrew Jenks podcast What Really Happened? that “Yeah it was complete bull****. There was no investigation.” Smith goes on to explain that the investigation was only to satisfy the press, who had begun to pry into MJ’s gambling issues. ...

As for the famous line “If David Stern let’s me back in the league, I may come back” Smith explains that:

SMITH: “Knowing Michael it made complete sense because it was like a side comment to Stern like you’re doing this bull**** gambling investigation when you know nothing is there and you’re doing it just for the media, just to satisfy them. So it was like to me it was a side statement to Stern like ‘You know this is bull****, I know this is bull****’ and so I took it as Michael’s way of giving the needle to Stern and where he knows Stern’s gotta do this for the media and for the public but he knows Stern knows that there’s nothing to it but ‘You too, Et tu, David, you’re hanging me out there for no reason.’ So it was like a little slide shot at Stern.”

JENKS: “That’s incredible. So classic Jordan if anything really? Somehow finds a way to give you a jab.”

SMITH: “Yeah. Exactly. It fits exactly with the way–and it was the way Michael was because I heard that over the years, that he would say things like that and you could tell who it was aimed at.”

[celticsclay]

So the NBA investigated MJ for gambling and the company that he kept. Do people want to argue that this investigation occurred?

I don't think that Lebron has been investigated for hanging out and gambling with shady people. I know there are people on this site that have Lebron's worst moments ready to go. Is there anything that he's done that would initiate a league investigation?

Are you just being intentionally dense at this point? I’m Gonna have to write this out like you are a 5 year old.

Fact 1: jordan gambled and did a lot of scumbag things
Fact 2: this has nothing to do with Lebron James or his character
Fact 3: fact 1 does not mean jordan was suspended. The suspension is a wild conspiracy theory that has been refuted countless times
Fact 4: jordan quit cause his dad was murdered and he was burnt out

That is it. That is all there is to it. Good grief.

[celticsclay]

Sam Smith, author of The Jordan Rules, perhaps the definitive book on Michael Jordan and a former investigative reporter himself, argued on Andrew Jenks podcast What Really Happened? that “Yeah it was complete bull****. There was no investigation.” Smith goes on to explain that the investigation was only to satisfy the press, who had begun to pry into MJ’s gambling issues. ...

As for the famous line “If David Stern let’s me back in the league, I may come back” Smith explains that:

SMITH: “Knowing Michael it made complete sense because it was like a side comment to Stern like you’re doing this bull**** gambling investigation when you know nothing is there and you’re doing it just for the media, just to satisfy them. So it was like to me it was a side statement to Stern like ‘You know this is bull****, I know this is bull****’ and so I took it as Michael’s way of giving the needle to Stern and where he knows Stern’s gotta do this for the media and for the public but he knows Stern knows that there’s nothing to it but ‘You too, Et tu, David, you’re hanging me out there for no reason.’ So it was like a little slide shot at Stern.”

JENKS: “That’s incredible. So classic Jordan if anything really? Somehow finds a way to give you a jab.”

SMITH: “Yeah. Exactly. It fits exactly with the way–and it was the way Michael was because I heard that over the years, that he would say things like that and you could tell who it was aimed at.”

Thank you for sharing this roy and continuing to have the patience to deal with people being willfully naive and pushing completely unnecessary stories and narratives. Gonna keep getting tps from me.

[celticsclay]

At the press conference when he was asked if he would ever return he said, " Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back."

Sam Smith talked about this in one of his books, I think.  It was a shot at Stern.

Watch MJ's press conference sometime.  He's extremely irritated with the media, and mentions it multiple times.  He's irritated because they'd been raising a stink about his personal life, both the death of his dad and his gambling with shady dudes.  And, he's mad at Stern, because to appease that media, Stern authorized an "investigation".  There wasn't a real investigation, it was largely for show.  But, MJ didn't like it, and felt like Stern should have defended him or ignored the issue, rather than telling the media they were looking into the issue.

So, the faux investigation is still pending when he gives his press conference.  And MJ decided to take a shot at Stern.  Like, "I'm the best player in the world, and maybe I'll come back some day, assuming that bullcrap "gambling investigation" hasn't resulted in me being suspended for life".

In other words, it was sarcasm.

Yeah, it was a total tongue in cheek. 

Stern & MJ went hand & hand in the 90s. Stern used Jordan to grow the sport and globalize the game.  Jordan knew his importance there and it was a sarcastic jab.

Glad to see we have a couple ogs coming together here to stop the nonsense on this. Tp

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

So the NBA investigated MJ for gambling and the company that he kept. Do people want to argue that this investigation occurred?

I don't think that Lebron has been investigated for hanging out and gambling with shady people. I know there are people on this site that have Lebron's worst moments ready to go. Is there anything that he's done that would initiate a league investigation?

Are you just being intentionally dense at this point? I’m Gonna have to write this out like you are a 5 year old.

Fact 1: jordan gambled and did a lot of scumbag things
Fact 2: this has nothing to do with Lebron James or his character
Fact 3: fact 1 does not mean jordan was suspended. The suspension is a wild conspiracy theory that has been refuted countless times
Fact 4: jordan quit cause his dad was murdered and he was burnt out

That is it. That is all there is to it. Good grief.

Are you actually asking me if I'm dense, or are you trying to make a point? Who talks to other people like that? It doesn't seem kind, in the slightest.

Lebron is criticized for many things, and MJ appears to get a free ride. I agree with your 4 facts, so there's nothing else to say from my end.

I'm sorry for causing heartache, and I apologized. This wasn't my intention. I'm going to bow out from this thread.

[celticsclay]

So the NBA investigated MJ for gambling and the company that he kept. Do people want to argue that this investigation occurred?

I don't think that Lebron has been investigated for hanging out and gambling with shady people. I know there are people on this site that have Lebron's worst moments ready to go. Is there anything that he's done that would initiate a league investigation?

Are you just being intentionally dense at this point? I’m Gonna have to write this out like you are a 5 year old.

Fact 1: jordan gambled and did a lot of scumbag things
Fact 2: this has nothing to do with Lebron James or his character
Fact 3: fact 1 does not mean jordan was suspended. The suspension is a wild conspiracy theory that has been refuted countless times
Fact 4: jordan quit cause his dad was murdered and he was burnt out

That is it. That is all there is to it. Good grief.

Are you actually asking me if I'm dense, or are you trying to make a point? Who talks to other people like that? It doesn't seem kind, in the slightest.

Lebron is criticized for many things, and MJ appears to get a free ride. I agree with your 4 facts, so there's nothing else to say from my end.

I'm sorry for causing heartache, and I apologized. This wasn't my intention. I'm going to bow out from this thread.

I was asking if you were intentionally being dense, because I actually don’t think you are. It felt like throughout this thread you were intentionally misunderstanding what I was trying to say, but it could very well be a difference in communication styles or me misunderstanding things. So I also apologize and give you a tp for the discussion.

[Moranis]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out).  There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history.  It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade.  I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's.  They are mostly terrible.  The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals.  That team is awful.  You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team.  I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs.  You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF.  The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.

[Kernewek]

At the press conference when he was asked if he would ever return he said, " Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back."

Sam Smith talked about this in one of his books, I think.  It was a shot at Stern.

Watch MJ's press conference sometime.  He's extremely irritated with the media, and mentions it multiple times.  He's irritated because they'd been raising a stink about his personal life, both the death of his dad and his gambling with shady dudes.  And, he's mad at Stern, because to appease that media, Stern authorized an "investigation".  There wasn't a real investigation, it was largely for show.  But, MJ didn't like it, and felt like Stern should have defended him or ignored the issue, rather than telling the media they were looking into the issue.

So, the faux investigation is still pending when he gives his press conference.  And MJ decided to take a shot at Stern.  Like, "I'm the best player in the world, and maybe I'll come back some day, assuming that bullcrap "gambling investigation" hasn't resulted in me being suspended for life".

In other words, it was sarcasm.

But that's not what he said. We can't determine intent. We have to look at what was actually uttered. We cannot take context into account for Jordan if we're not going to take it into account for James. 


Since we're talking about GOATs though, I did enjoy this description of Russel's game from a little while ago:

   

Was Bill Russell any good?

He was and is a f-ing god to anyone who pays attention to anything. He redefined defense, won more championships than anyone else, did this in the racially backwards version of Boston in which he lived, was the most socially aware athlete of the last 65 years, plus he kicked Wilt Chamberlain’s ass in nearly every important moment of their decade-long duel, and since Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominant athlete in any sport ever, Bill Russell was better than that. All these young punks who want to talk about how much the old days sucked comprehend nothing that hasn’t happened before Better Call Saul, and you should hate them all with the white-hot fervor of a Bessemer furnace. They suck.

https://defector.com/and-now-the-raybag/

[celticsclay]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out).  There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history.  It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade.  I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's.  They are mostly terrible.  The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals.  That team is awful.  You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team.  I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs.  You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF.  The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.

Do you really expect me or anyone else to take the way you are talking about lebrons competition seriously here? Let’s take your 76ers example here that are you calling better than the Knicks. Elton brand was coming off a series of injuries and averaged 11 points 7 rebounds. Iggy was averaged 13, 6,5 with good defense. Holiday was in his second year and averaged 14 points and 4 assists with mediocre shooting. Jodie Meeks and spencer hawes started significant amount of games. The Knicks had Ewing averaging 24 and 11 and clear fire hall of famer. Charles Oakley averaged 12 and 12 with elite d. Starks was 19ppg then there was a very impressive stable of veterans that knew how to play including mason, Harper, doc, Greg Anthony etc. They also had one of the best ever coaches compared to Doug Collins in his final years of coaching. I would be surprised if the Knicks didn’t absolutely stomp that 76ers team and it would truly enjoyable watching spencer hawes, a busted injured brand and tony battle match up with Ewing, Oakley and mason. I’ll also add when you make a post like this so clearly tied to your agenda it really makes it not worth my time to read into the rest of your posts on anything related to Lebron. It’s such a mind blowingly bad argument that I know you yourself don’t even believe.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2012.html

Also I have to come back and ask cause this was also particularly egregious and stinky. You are talking about b diddy. You realized he averaged 6 points and 4 assists and retired after that season? You mention Mike Bibby for Knicks he averaged 2 points and 2 assists. Even amare, who was still ok had succumbed to his knees at this point seeing his scoring drop to 17ppg with mediocre defense and board work. He would never average more than 14 points the rest of his career and was out of the league in a few seasons. This is bad even for you….

[Moranis]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out).  There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history.  It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade.  I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's.  They are mostly terrible.  The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals.  That team is awful.  You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team.  I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs.  You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF.  The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.

Do you really expect me or anyone else to take the way you are talking about lebrons competition seriously here? Let’s take your 76ers example here that are you calling better than the Knicks. Elton brand was coming off a series of injuries and averaged 11 points 7 rebounds. Iggy was averaged 13, 6,5 with good defense. Holiday was in his second year and averaged 14 points and 4 assists with mediocre shooting. Jodie Meeks and spencer hawes started significant amount of games. The Knicks had Ewing averaging 24 and 11 and clear fire hall of famer. Charles Oakley averaged 12 and 12 with elite d. Starks was 19ppg then there was a very impressive stable of veterans that knew how to play including mason, Harper, doc, Greg Anthony etc. They also had one of the best ever coaches compared to Doug Collins in his final years of coaching. I would be surprised if the Knicks didn’t absolutely stomp that 76ers team and it would truly enjoyable watching spencer hawes, a busted injured brand and tony battle match up with Ewing, Oakley and mason. I’ll also add when you make a post like this so clearly tied to your agenda it really makes it not worth my time to read into the rest of your posts on anything related to Lebron. It’s such a mind blowingly bad argument that I know you yourself don’t even believe.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2012.html

Also I have to come back and ask cause this was also so bad. You are talking about b diddy. You realized he averaged 6 points and 4 assists and retired after that season? You mention Mike Bibby for Knicks he averaged 2 points and 2 assists. This is bad even for you….

I simmed the 93 Knicks and 12 Sixers at whatifsports.com - with the Sixers at home, they won 7 of the 10 matchups.  With the Knicks home, they split 5-5.  So 20 matchups and the Sixers won 12 to the Knicks 8. 

The Knicks, Pacers, and a whole bunch of other teams from the 90's that were good teams at the time, just don't hold up historically.  It was a horribly weak decade.  The Bulls were a great team though, which tends to happen when you have the best player in the sport and another top 5 player in his prime that compliments the best player well.  Those teams no matter the era win and win a lot.  And Pippen was absolutely a top 5 guy for at least a lot of those seasons (and was no worse than top 10 from 91 on). 

[celticsclay]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out).  There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history.  It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade.  I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's.  They are mostly terrible.  The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals.  That team is awful.  You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team.  I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs.  You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF.  The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.

Do you really expect me or anyone else to take the way you are talking about lebrons competition seriously here? Let’s take your 76ers example here that are you calling better than the Knicks. Elton brand was coming off a series of injuries and averaged 11 points 7 rebounds. Iggy was averaged 13, 6,5 with good defense. Holiday was in his second year and averaged 14 points and 4 assists with mediocre shooting. Jodie Meeks and spencer hawes started significant amount of games. The Knicks had Ewing averaging 24 and 11 and clear fire hall of famer. Charles Oakley averaged 12 and 12 with elite d. Starks was 19ppg then there was a very impressive stable of veterans that knew how to play including mason, Harper, doc, Greg Anthony etc. They also had one of the best ever coaches compared to Doug Collins in his final years of coaching. I would be surprised if the Knicks didn’t absolutely stomp that 76ers team and it would truly enjoyable watching spencer hawes, a busted injured brand and tony battle match up with Ewing, Oakley and mason. I’ll also add when you make a post like this so clearly tied to your agenda it really makes it not worth my time to read into the rest of your posts on anything related to Lebron. It’s such a mind blowingly bad argument that I know you yourself don’t even believe.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2012.html

Also I have to come back and ask cause this was also so bad. You are talking about b diddy. You realized he averaged 6 points and 4 assists and retired after that season? You mention Mike Bibby for Knicks he averaged 2 points and 2 assists. This is bad even for you….

I simmed the 93 Knicks and 12 Sixers at whatifsports.com - with the Sixers at home, they won 7 of the 10 matchups.  With the Knicks home, they split 5-5.  So 20 matchups and the Sixers won 12 to the Knicks 8. 

The Knicks, Pacers, and a whole bunch of other teams from the 90's that were good teams at the time, just don't hold up historically.  It was a horribly weak decade.  The Bulls were a great team though, which tends to happen when you have the best player in the sport and another top 5 player in his prime that compliments the best player well.  Those teams no matter the era win and win a lot.  And Pippen was absolutely a top 5 guy for at least a lot of those seasons (and was no worse than top 10 from 91 on).

I just played nba2k with my Nephew and was discussing our conversation. He said calling a team with injured brand, spencer hawes tony battie, Jodie Meeks iggy and baby jrue better than the 94 Knicks a “woeful understanding of nba history.” I also know there is no way you actually believe this so please just stop.

[Roy H.]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out).  There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history.  It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade.  I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's.  They are mostly terrible.  The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals.  That team is awful.  You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team.  I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs.  You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF.  The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.

Do you really expect me or anyone else to take the way you are talking about lebrons competition seriously here? Let’s take your 76ers example here that are you calling better than the Knicks. Elton brand was coming off a series of injuries and averaged 11 points 7 rebounds. Iggy was averaged 13, 6,5 with good defense. Holiday was in his second year and averaged 14 points and 4 assists with mediocre shooting. Jodie Meeks and spencer hawes started significant amount of games. The Knicks had Ewing averaging 24 and 11 and clear fire hall of famer. Charles Oakley averaged 12 and 12 with elite d. Starks was 19ppg then there was a very impressive stable of veterans that knew how to play including mason, Harper, doc, Greg Anthony etc. They also had one of the best ever coaches compared to Doug Collins in his final years of coaching. I would be surprised if the Knicks didn’t absolutely stomp that 76ers team and it would truly enjoyable watching spencer hawes, a busted injured brand and tony battle match up with Ewing, Oakley and mason. I’ll also add when you make a post like this so clearly tied to your agenda it really makes it not worth my time to read into the rest of your posts on anything related to Lebron. It’s such a mind blowingly bad argument that I know you yourself don’t even believe.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2012.html

Also I have to come back and ask cause this was also so bad. You are talking about b diddy. You realized he averaged 6 points and 4 assists and retired after that season? You mention Mike Bibby for Knicks he averaged 2 points and 2 assists. This is bad even for you….

I simmed the 93 Knicks and 12 Sixers at whatifsports.com - with the Sixers at home, they won 7 of the 10 matchups.  With the Knicks home, they split 5-5.  So 20 matchups and the Sixers won 12 to the Knicks 8. 

The Knicks, Pacers, and a whole bunch of other teams from the 90's that were good teams at the time, just don't hold up historically.  It was a horribly weak decade.  The Bulls were a great team though, which tends to happen when you have the best player in the sport and another top 5 player in his prime that compliments the best player well.  Those teams no matter the era win and win a lot.  And Pippen was absolutely a top 5 guy for at least a lot of those seasons (and was no worse than top 10 from 91 on).

I just played nba2k with my Nephew and was discussing our conversation. He said calling a team with injured brand, spencer hawes tony battie, Jodie Meeks iggy and baby jrue better than the 94 Knicks a “woeful understanding of nba history.” I also know there is no way you actually believe this so please just stop.

I just played the '86 Celtics against the '22 Sixers on whatifsports.com, and Philly won 118-116.  Andre Drummond was the player of the game with 13 points and 18 rebounds.  Larry Bird had 15 points and shot 6 of 17.

I then decided to never go to whatifsports.com again.

[Moranis]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out).  There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history.  It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade.  I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's.  They are mostly terrible.  The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals.  That team is awful.  You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team.  I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs.  You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF.  The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.

Do you really expect me or anyone else to take the way you are talking about lebrons competition seriously here? Let’s take your 76ers example here that are you calling better than the Knicks. Elton brand was coming off a series of injuries and averaged 11 points 7 rebounds. Iggy was averaged 13, 6,5 with good defense. Holiday was in his second year and averaged 14 points and 4 assists with mediocre shooting. Jodie Meeks and spencer hawes started significant amount of games. The Knicks had Ewing averaging 24 and 11 and clear fire hall of famer. Charles Oakley averaged 12 and 12 with elite d. Starks was 19ppg then there was a very impressive stable of veterans that knew how to play including mason, Harper, doc, Greg Anthony etc. They also had one of the best ever coaches compared to Doug Collins in his final years of coaching. I would be surprised if the Knicks didn’t absolutely stomp that 76ers team and it would truly enjoyable watching spencer hawes, a busted injured brand and tony battle match up with Ewing, Oakley and mason. I’ll also add when you make a post like this so clearly tied to your agenda it really makes it not worth my time to read into the rest of your posts on anything related to Lebron. It’s such a mind blowingly bad argument that I know you yourself don’t even believe.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2012.html

Also I have to come back and ask cause this was also so bad. You are talking about b diddy. You realized he averaged 6 points and 4 assists and retired after that season? You mention Mike Bibby for Knicks he averaged 2 points and 2 assists. This is bad even for you….

I simmed the 93 Knicks and 12 Sixers at whatifsports.com - with the Sixers at home, they won 7 of the 10 matchups.  With the Knicks home, they split 5-5.  So 20 matchups and the Sixers won 12 to the Knicks 8. 

The Knicks, Pacers, and a whole bunch of other teams from the 90's that were good teams at the time, just don't hold up historically.  It was a horribly weak decade.  The Bulls were a great team though, which tends to happen when you have the best player in the sport and another top 5 player in his prime that compliments the best player well.  Those teams no matter the era win and win a lot.  And Pippen was absolutely a top 5 guy for at least a lot of those seasons (and was no worse than top 10 from 91 on).

I just played nba2k with my Nephew and was discussing our conversation. He said calling a team with injured brand, spencer hawes tony battie, Jodie Meeks iggy and baby jrue better than the 94 Knicks a “woeful understanding of nba history.” I also know there is no way you actually believe this so please just stop.

I just played the '86 Celtics against the '22 Sixers on whatifsports.com, and Philly won 118-116.  Andre Drummond was the player of the game with 13 points and 18 rebounds.  Larry Bird had 15 points and shot 6 of 17.

I then decided to never go to whatifsports.com again.

I did that 10 times and the Celtics won 7 of the 10.  The games the Sixers won, Embiid had monster games.

it is obviously based on stats and the modern teams do have a bit of an advantage because of the 3 point shot, but I've found it to be fairly accurate and generally matches what i would expect the result to be. 


Here is one of the box scores

WhatIfSports.com: NBA Boxscore
2021-22 Philadelphia 76ers at 1985-86 Boston Celtics
7/22/2022 1:20:22 PM

Final   1st   2nd   3rd   4th   Total
2021-22 Philadelphia 76ers   19   16   17   32   84
1985-86 Boston Celtics   25   20   20   36   101

VISITING TEAM: 2021-22 Philadelphia 76ers
PLAYER   MIN   FGM/FGA   3PT
FGM/FGA   FTM/FTA   OFF
REB   TOT
REB   AST   BLK   STL   TO   PF   TP
Seth Curry   36   7/16   2/6   3/4   0   5   3   1   3   3   3   19
Joel Embiid   36   5/17   1/5   3/3   0   10   4   0   0   4   2   14
Tyrese Maxey   35   6/12   2/3   3/5   0   4   4   2   1   0   0   17
Matisse Thybulle   26   2/5   1/4   2/2   1   2   2   0   1   3   1   7
Danny Green   22   1/1   1/1   0/0   0   0   1   0   3   1   1   3
Georges Niang   20   1/5   1/4   0/0   0   3   3   0   0   1   0   3
Furkan Korkmaz   20   2/8   0/2   0/0   0   2   0   0   0   3   0   4
Andre Drummond   18   3/9   0/0   0/0   4   11   2   1   0   0   0   6
Paul Millsap   16   1/4   0/2   2/2   2   3   2   0   2   1   2   4
Paul Reed   7   2/2   0/0   0/0   1   2   0   3   0   0   1   4
Isaiah Joe   1   1/1   1/1   0/0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   3
Aaron Henry   1   0/0   0/0   0/0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0
Charlie Brown   1   0/0   0/0   0/0   0   0   0   0   0   1   0   0
Braxton Key   1   0/0   0/0   0/0   0   0   1   0   0   0   0   0
TOTALS       31/80   9/28   13/16   8   42   22   7   10   17   10   84
        38.8%   32.1%   81.3%                               
 
HOME TEAM: 1985-86 Boston Celtics
PLAYER   MIN   FGM/FGA   3PT
FGM/FGA   FTM/FTA   OFF
REB   TOT
REB   AST   BLK   STL   TO   PF   TP
Larry Bird   38   12/27   0/0   0/1   5   15   4   1   4   3   1   24
Kevin McHale   35   7/17   0/0   3/3   4   9   1   2   0   0   3   17
Dennis Johnson   32   4/12   0/2   3/4   2   3   10   1   2   0   2   11
Robert Parish   32   6/11   0/1   3/3   2   10   0   0   1   4   0   15
Danny Ainge   32   2/5   0/1   2/2   0   4   7   0   0   1   1   6
Bill Walton   16   2/4   0/0   2/2   5   11   0   0   0   2   1   6
Rick Carlisle   13   4/5   0/0   0/0   0   0   3   0   2   0   0   8
Scott Wedman   10   2/6   0/1   0/0   2   4   0   0   0   1   1   4
Jerry Sichting   9   2/3   0/1   0/0   0   1   2   0   0   1   1   4
Sam Vincent   9   2/6   0/0   0/0   0   0   0   0   0   1   0   4
Greg Kite   7   1/1   0/0   0/0   0   3   0   0   0   0   2   2
David Thirdkill   6   0/2   0/1   0/0   0   1   0   0   0   0   0   0
Sly Williams   1   0/0   0/0   0/0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0
TOTALS       44/99   0/7   13/15   20   61   27   4   9   13   12   101
        44.4%   0%   86.7%                               

[celticsclay]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

You can go head to head, Lebron's competition, even in the "weak" east, was significantly better than the east in the 90's (once the Pistons aged out).  There was nothing biased about that post at all. The 90's were a very weak decade in the sport's history.  It wasn't until the rise of the Spurs and Lakers towards the end of the decade that the sport finally started to recover from the mass expansion in the early part of the decade.  I mean have you really looked at the playoff teams in the 90's.  They are mostly terrible.  The Knicks with Ewing, Oakley, and Starks as the 3 best players were a 60 win team and the next year won 57 games and made the Finals.  That team is awful.  You could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that Knicks team.  I mean the Heat went through the Sixers with AI2, Jrue, and Brand at the top - the Celtics with KG, PP, Ray, Rondo - the Bulls with Rose, Noah, Deng, Boozer, before reaching the Mavs.  You could realistically argue every single one of those teams was better than the 60 win Knicks team from 93 that lost in 6 to the Bulls in the ECF.  The next season the Heat went through the Knicks with Melo, A'Mare, Chandler, B Diddy, Bibby, Smith - then the Pacers with Granger, West, Hill, George, Hibbert - then the C's again - before taking on the Thunder with Durant, Russ, Harden, Ibaka.

Do you really expect me or anyone else to take the way you are talking about lebrons competition seriously here? Let’s take your 76ers example here that are you calling better than the Knicks. Elton brand was coming off a series of injuries and averaged 11 points 7 rebounds. Iggy was averaged 13, 6,5 with good defense. Holiday was in his second year and averaged 14 points and 4 assists with mediocre shooting. Jodie Meeks and spencer hawes started significant amount of games. The Knicks had Ewing averaging 24 and 11 and clear fire hall of famer. Charles Oakley averaged 12 and 12 with elite d. Starks was 19ppg then there was a very impressive stable of veterans that knew how to play including mason, Harper, doc, Greg Anthony etc. They also had one of the best ever coaches compared to Doug Collins in his final years of coaching. I would be surprised if the Knicks didn’t absolutely stomp that 76ers team and it would truly enjoyable watching spencer hawes, a busted injured brand and tony battle match up with Ewing, Oakley and mason. I’ll also add when you make a post like this so clearly tied to your agenda it really makes it not worth my time to read into the rest of your posts on anything related to Lebron. It’s such a mind blowingly bad argument that I know you yourself don’t even believe.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2012.html

Also I have to come back and ask cause this was also so bad. You are talking about b diddy. You realized he averaged 6 points and 4 assists and retired after that season? You mention Mike Bibby for Knicks he averaged 2 points and 2 assists. This is bad even for you….

I simmed the 93 Knicks and 12 Sixers at whatifsports.com - with the Sixers at home, they won 7 of the 10 matchups.  With the Knicks home, they split 5-5.  So 20 matchups and the Sixers won 12 to the Knicks 8. 

The Knicks, Pacers, and a whole bunch of other teams from the 90's that were good teams at the time, just don't hold up historically.  It was a horribly weak decade.  The Bulls were a great team though, which tends to happen when you have the best player in the sport and another top 5 player in his prime that compliments the best player well.  Those teams no matter the era win and win a lot.  And Pippen was absolutely a top 5 guy for at least a lot of those seasons (and was no worse than top 10 from 91 on).

I just played nba2k with my Nephew and was discussing our conversation. He said calling a team with injured brand, spencer hawes tony battie, Jodie Meeks iggy and baby jrue better than the 94 Knicks a “woeful understanding of nba history.” I also know there is no way you actually believe this so please just stop.

I just played the '86 Celtics against the '22 Sixers on whatifsports.com, and Philly won 118-116.  Andre Drummond was the player of the game with 13 points and 18 rebounds.  Larry Bird had 15 points and shot 6 of 17.

I then decided to never go to whatifsports.com again.

Yeah it’s some pretty poor technology and simulation. I guess a Hail Mary to throw when you are on a losing argument. Honestly I would guess 2nba 2k would be more realistic. And while thr 94 Knicks are on there the 2012 76ers team did not make the cut (at least in the version I have). This is honestly one of the more ridiculous arguments I can recall being involved in. Those Riley coached Knicks teams were extremely gritty and well coached and really took advantage of the style of play allowed in that era. Oakley, mason, starks were all very legit players. Charles Oakley actually made the all star team that year and made several all defensive teams. Mason later made an all star team and several all defensive teams. Starks also made one all star game (that year) and also made an all defensive second team. Ewing was still in his prime and obviously a hall of gamer. They also had one of the greatest coaches ever in Riley. Comparing them to a second year jrue holiday, Elton brand with blown knees averaging 11 points and an elite role player in iggy  (to say nothing of Meeks and hawes being other starters) really shows a fundamental lack of basketball knowledge if you are trying to call the 76ers a better team. But I think most people highly doubt Moranis himself believes this and got pretty lazy in his comparison not realizing where brand and holiday were in their careers but really hates admitting a mistake.

[Kernewek]

Or perhaps you're not seeing the forest for the trees when the statement "you could reasonably argue that every team the Heat played in 2011 was better than that [94] Knicks team" has some merit even if the Sixers are a potential exception?


I have no strong feelings either way, but taking this level of specificity into the argument in order to prove, what, that a reasonable argument can be had about it? As a way to devalue the point because he's a LeBron stan? It's pretty boring.

edit: phrasing.