GOAT: Jordan or James?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

The decision raised $ for at risk youth. Cleveland was a team full of stiffs before he went to Miami. Once they got top tier talent in Kyrie/Love, they were equipped to win.

His mom? That seems unfair.

Space Jam 2? I agree, that movie stunk.

Media hype? Blame ESPN.

Jealous about his $? MJ has more.

Bad character? From all accounts, he’s a stand up husband and great dad.

Selfish? Look at his assist #s. Besides Jokic, what other big can pass like Lebron? He’s basically Karl Malone’s size.

Losses in the Finals? Duncan and Curry are pretty good at basketball too.

Despite all of these contributions, grown men want to call him Lebum. Jeez

[RJ87]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

It does seem disproportionate to what he's done - which is consistently eliminate the Celtics from playoff contention. Other than that, he's a high profile who's largely avoided scandal in his career, seems like a decent enough family guy, and is very generous with his philanthropy - especially in giving back and building up Akron.

I have some deeper theories, but this isn't an appropriate platform for that discussion.

[slamtheking]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

The decision raised $ for at risk youth. Cleveland was a team full of stiffs before he went to Miami. Once they got top tier talent in Kyrie/Love, they were equipped to win.

His mom? That seems unfair.

Space Jam 2? I agree, that movie stunk.

Media hype? Blame ESPN.

Jealous about his $? MJ has more.

Bad character? From all accounts, he’s a stand up husband and great dad.

Selfish? Look at his assist #s. Besides Jokic, what other big can pass like Lebron? He’s basically Karl Malone’s size.

Losses in the Finals? Duncan and Curry are pretty good at basketball too.

Despite all of these contributions, grown men want to call him Lebum. Jeez

personally, what I don't like about him:
- the constant whining on the court and off about fouls and not getting what he considers 'fair' officiating even though he gets more calls in his favor than any player I've ever seen.  his epic whining after fouling out in a game against the Celtics where he couldn't believe he actually fouled out because, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I know how to play without fouling.  there's no way those were fouls".   If he was called for fouls like the average player, he'd have fouled out of a lot more games or have his defensive reputation take a significant hit.
- the conspiring with Bosh and Wade to form a superteam in Miami to try to guarantee themselves a title (or a number of titles if anyone remembers their arrogant press conference).  bad for the sport and the ultimate loser way to try to win a title.  people have compared that to what Danny did to get KG saying it was the same but it wasn't.  Celtics actually had to give up significant assets to get both Ray and KG and convince KG to come to Boston.  Miami had Bron and Bosh just drop in their laps.  reminds me of kids I knew in elementary school that would rig the teams in kickball to stack their team with good players and leave the rest to fend for themselves. 
- The running to Cleveland once they had the pieces to make a run and forcing the deal to get Love.  more ring chasing.
- the running to LA and again the efforts to drive the revamping of that team to make a run while using his toady Rich Paul to orchestrate AD going to LA -- torpedoing any deals the C's were making to get AD by having AD put out press releases/comments about not liking Boston.
- his social commentary seems to be heavily influenced by where his money is invested rather than what's really right/wrong in the world

he's the greatest player of his generation without question.  he's also a very unlikeable person when it comes to basketball.  don't know a lot about his humanitarian work though I've heard nothing but positive comments about that aspect of his life. 

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

The decision raised $ for at risk youth. Cleveland was a team full of stiffs before he went to Miami. Once they got top tier talent in Kyrie/Love, they were equipped to win.

His mom? That seems unfair.

Space Jam 2? I agree, that movie stunk.

Media hype? Blame ESPN.

Jealous about his $? MJ has more.

Bad character? From all accounts, he’s a stand up husband and great dad.

Selfish? Look at his assist #s. Besides Jokic, what other big can pass like Lebron? He’s basically Karl Malone’s size.

Losses in the Finals? Duncan and Curry are pretty good at basketball too.

Despite all of these contributions, grown men want to call him Lebum. Jeez

personally, what I don't like about him:
- the constant whining on the court and off about fouls and not getting what he considers 'fair' officiating even though he gets more calls in his favor than any player I've ever seen.  his epic whining after fouling out in a game against the Celtics where he couldn't believe he actually fouled out because, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I know how to play without fouling.  there's no way those were fouls".   If he was called for fouls like the average player, he'd have fouled out of a lot more games or have his defensive reputation take a significant hit.
- the conspiring with Bosh and Wade to form a superteam in Miami to try to guarantee themselves a title (or a number of titles if anyone remembers their arrogant press conference).  bad for the sport and the ultimate loser way to try to win a title.  people have compared that to what Danny did to get KG saying it was the same but it wasn't.  Celtics actually had to give up significant assets to get both Ray and KG and convince KG to come to Boston.  Miami had Bron and Bosh just drop in their laps.  reminds me of kids I knew in elementary school that would rig the teams in kickball to stack their team with good players and leave the rest to fend for themselves. 
- The running to Cleveland once they had the pieces to make a run and forcing the deal to get Love.  more ring chasing.
- the running to LA and again the efforts to drive the revamping of that team to make a run while using his toady Rich Paul to orchestrate AD going to LA -- torpedoing any deals the C's were making to get AD by having AD put out press releases/comments about not liking Boston.
- his social commentary seems to be heavily influenced by where his money is invested rather than what's really right/wrong in the world

he's the greatest player of his generation without question.  he's also a very unlikeable person when it comes to basketball.  don't know a lot about his humanitarian work though I've heard nothing but positive comments about that aspect of his life.

I think those criticisms are fair for many basketball players, esp. superstars. Whining? Yup. Talking to other players about forming teams? Yup. Social commentary? Yup.

I understand why people don't like Kyrie- they feel like he betrayed Boston, and his anti-vax stuff was crazy irresponsible.

I don't understand why Lebron is targeted to the extent that he is. People pick apart his weaknesses and completely ignore his strengths (better team player than MJ or Kobe and a more upstanding guy off the court).

[Donoghus]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

The decision raised $ for at risk youth. Cleveland was a team full of stiffs before he went to Miami. Once they got top tier talent in Kyrie/Love, they were equipped to win.

His mom? That seems unfair.

Space Jam 2? I agree, that movie stunk.

Media hype? Blame ESPN.

Jealous about his $? MJ has more.

Bad character? From all accounts, he’s a stand up husband and great dad.

Selfish? Look at his assist #s. Besides Jokic, what other big can pass like Lebron? He’s basically Karl Malone’s size.

Losses in the Finals? Duncan and Curry are pretty good at basketball too.

Despite all of these contributions, grown men want to call him Lebum. Jeez

personally, what I don't like about him:
- the constant whining on the court and off about fouls and not getting what he considers 'fair' officiating even though he gets more calls in his favor than any player I've ever seen.  his epic whining after fouling out in a game against the Celtics where he couldn't believe he actually fouled out because, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I know how to play without fouling.  there's no way those were fouls".   If he was called for fouls like the average player, he'd have fouled out of a lot more games or have his defensive reputation take a significant hit.
- the conspiring with Bosh and Wade to form a superteam in Miami to try to guarantee themselves a title (or a number of titles if anyone remembers their arrogant press conference).  bad for the sport and the ultimate loser way to try to win a title.  people have compared that to what Danny did to get KG saying it was the same but it wasn't.  Celtics actually had to give up significant assets to get both Ray and KG and convince KG to come to Boston.  Miami had Bron and Bosh just drop in their laps.  reminds me of kids I knew in elementary school that would rig the teams in kickball to stack their team with good players and leave the rest to fend for themselves. 
- The running to Cleveland once they had the pieces to make a run and forcing the deal to get Love.  more ring chasing.
- the running to LA and again the efforts to drive the revamping of that team to make a run while using his toady Rich Paul to orchestrate AD going to LA -- torpedoing any deals the C's were making to get AD by having AD put out press releases/comments about not liking Boston.
- his social commentary seems to be heavily influenced by where his money is invested rather than what's really right/wrong in the world

he's the greatest player of his generation without question.  he's also a very unlikeable person when it comes to basketball.  don't know a lot about his humanitarian work though I've heard nothing but positive comments about that aspect of his life.

I think those criticisms are fair for many basketball players, esp. superstars. Whining? Yup. Talking to other players about forming teams? Yup. Social commentary? Yup.

I understand why people don't like Kyrie- they feel like he betrayed Boston, and his anti-vax stuff was crazy irresponsible.

I don't understand why Lebron is targeted to the extent that he is. People pick apart his weaknesses and completely ignore his strengths (better team player than MJ or Kobe and a more upstanding guy off the court).

I don't think you're gonna find much love for Kobe on these boards either.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

The decision raised $ for at risk youth. Cleveland was a team full of stiffs before he went to Miami. Once they got top tier talent in Kyrie/Love, they were equipped to win.

His mom? That seems unfair.

Space Jam 2? I agree, that movie stunk.

Media hype? Blame ESPN.

Jealous about his $? MJ has more.

Bad character? From all accounts, he’s a stand up husband and great dad.

Selfish? Look at his assist #s. Besides Jokic, what other big can pass like Lebron? He’s basically Karl Malone’s size.

Losses in the Finals? Duncan and Curry are pretty good at basketball too.

Despite all of these contributions, grown men want to call him Lebum. Jeez

personally, what I don't like about him:
- the constant whining on the court and off about fouls and not getting what he considers 'fair' officiating even though he gets more calls in his favor than any player I've ever seen.  his epic whining after fouling out in a game against the Celtics where he couldn't believe he actually fouled out because, and I'm paraphrasing here, "I know how to play without fouling.  there's no way those were fouls".   If he was called for fouls like the average player, he'd have fouled out of a lot more games or have his defensive reputation take a significant hit.
- the conspiring with Bosh and Wade to form a superteam in Miami to try to guarantee themselves a title (or a number of titles if anyone remembers their arrogant press conference).  bad for the sport and the ultimate loser way to try to win a title.  people have compared that to what Danny did to get KG saying it was the same but it wasn't.  Celtics actually had to give up significant assets to get both Ray and KG and convince KG to come to Boston.  Miami had Bron and Bosh just drop in their laps.  reminds me of kids I knew in elementary school that would rig the teams in kickball to stack their team with good players and leave the rest to fend for themselves. 
- The running to Cleveland once they had the pieces to make a run and forcing the deal to get Love.  more ring chasing.
- the running to LA and again the efforts to drive the revamping of that team to make a run while using his toady Rich Paul to orchestrate AD going to LA -- torpedoing any deals the C's were making to get AD by having AD put out press releases/comments about not liking Boston.
- his social commentary seems to be heavily influenced by where his money is invested rather than what's really right/wrong in the world

he's the greatest player of his generation without question.  he's also a very unlikeable person when it comes to basketball.  don't know a lot about his humanitarian work though I've heard nothing but positive comments about that aspect of his life.

I think those criticisms are fair for many basketball players, esp. superstars. Whining? Yup. Talking to other players about forming teams? Yup. Social commentary? Yup.

I understand why people don't like Kyrie- they feel like he betrayed Boston, and his anti-vax stuff was crazy irresponsible.

I don't understand why Lebron is targeted to the extent that he is. People pick apart his weaknesses and completely ignore his strengths (better team player than MJ or Kobe and a more upstanding guy off the court).

I don't think you're gonna find much love for Kobe on these boards either.

It's interesting how much MJ is loved around here, considering that the Celtics never really had a contending team during his reign. I wonder how the MJ lovefest would have changed if he beat the Celtics in the playoffs as much as Lebron did.

Is Lebron "Lebum", or are some Celtics fans poor sports?

[celticsclay]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

It does seem disproportionate to what he's done - which is consistently eliminate the Celtics from playoff contention. Other than that, he's a high profile who's largely avoided scandal in his career, seems like a decent enough family guy, and is very generous with his philanthropy - especially in giving back and building up Akron.

I have some deeper theories, but this isn't an appropriate platform for that discussion.

I’ll add on, I don’t hate Lebron by any stretch. I think he is a much nicer person than a lot of people in the league and certainly was a better person during his playing career than jordan. Calling him tied for the second best player of all time or the third best of all time is pretty far from hating him and is what I think the majority of older fans rank him as. The few things I don’t like about him? He really did do something pretty stupid calling Morey uninformed about China and it was pretty transparent attempt to keep his pockets lined. I don’t think he needs to speak out on every issue in the world but he really should have stayed quiet on that rather than supporting a country doing awful things.

I also wish he talked about race differently or not at all as I do think he has done some particularly damaging things (posting a photo of a white cop saying your next that is going to be seen by hundreds of millions of people in a case that was pretty complicated) That being said, this is less bad than some of the stuff jordan did and I believe jordan did support some pretty politicians over his career but I would have to go look that up again for details.

As for on the court I just think mj was significantly mentally tougher than Lebron. I don’t think the Dallas series ever happens with Jj barrea inside mjs head. I’m not sure mj loses to the spurs either (and Lebron probably should have lost twice).

[Roy H.]

I respect Lebron's game.  I don't like his personality much at all. 

I feel similarly regarding MJ, but I have more respect for his game because he was literally unbeatable for a stretch.  I feel less strongly about his personality because 1) he didn't really engage in social commentary 2) his stupid comments during his playing days aren't amplified all over social media.

Kobe...  I have less respect for his game (quite inefficient, didn't get along well with teammates, several displays of selfishness).  I like his work ethic, but believe that he's most likely a rapist, or at the very least is extremely demeaning toward women.

[celticsclay]

I respect Lebron's game.  I don't like his personality much at all. 

I feel similarly regarding MJ, but I have more respect for his game because he was literally unbeatable for a stretch.  I feel less strongly about his personality because 1) he didn't really engage in social commentary 2) his stupid comments during his playing days aren't amplified all over social media.

Kobe...  I have less respect for his game (quite inefficient, didn't get along well with teammates, several displays of selfishness).  I like his work ethic, but believe that he's most likely a rapist, or at the very least is extremely demeaning toward women.

Yeah this is well said on all three players.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I respect Lebron's game.  I don't like his personality much at all. 

I feel similarly regarding MJ, but I have more respect for his game because he was literally unbeatable for a stretch.  I feel less strongly about his personality because 1) he didn't really engage in social commentary 2) his stupid comments during his playing days aren't amplified all over social media.

Kobe...  I have less respect for his game (quite inefficient, didn't get along well with teammates, several displays of selfishness).  I like his work ethic, but believe that he's most likely a rapist, or at the very least is extremely demeaning toward women.

I think this is a measured response. I like Lebron more than you (for his charitable work as a role model), but I respect your opinion.

I think MJ had warts that would have been exposed in a different time period.

I also think Kobe was a rapist. I think it's hard to root for a guy like that.

[gouki88]

My take between Jordan & James:

I take Jordan anytime cause he hated to lose & wanted to tear your heart out plus he was hard to stop

James wants everything given to him plus I alway said the guy on steroids..I put him in top 15 all time but not in top 10

If you look at his numbers/championships etc., I don't see how you can keep LeBron out of the top-10 and relegate him to 11-15 range. Based on what? Why not 11-20 range? I understand the fact that you don't like him being his own GM, nobody does (except Miami fans and maybe a few in LA).  But come on, give the guy his due.

It is legitimately indefensible to try and argue LeBron is anything but top 5 at absolute worst

[Celtics4ever]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

[celticsclay]

I will admit that one thing I didn’t mention was that lebrons last season was super weird for an all time great. I realize kobe had a similar last season and his last game was an absolute joke, but I don’t think anyone even thought of Kobe as a top 10 player at that point and he had a series of really bad injuries at that point. I was too young for Kareem’s end of career but it just felt really weird watching Lebron last season literally just let his man dunk on him so he could race out on the break to try and score. I wish I could find the clip of his end of game bucket against the hawks where the lakers announcers just laughed. The stat chasing is a little unbecoming.

[slamtheking]

My take between Jordan & James:

I take Jordan anytime cause he hated to lose & wanted to tear your heart out plus he was hard to stop

James wants everything given to him plus I alway said the guy on steroids..I put him in top 15 all time but not in top 10

If you look at his numbers/championships etc., I don't see how you can keep LeBron out of the top-10 and relegate him to 11-15 range. Based on what? Why not 11-20 range? I understand the fact that you don't like him being his own GM, nobody does (except Miami fans and maybe a few in LA).  But come on, give the guy his due.

It is legitimately indefensible to try and argue LeBron is anything but top 5 at absolute worst

top 5: Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Jordan.  Lebron comes after them.  Kareem would be ahead of him too. 

[gouki88]

My take between Jordan & James:

I take Jordan anytime cause he hated to lose & wanted to tear your heart out plus he was hard to stop

James wants everything given to him plus I alway said the guy on steroids..I put him in top 15 all time but not in top 10

If you look at his numbers/championships etc., I don't see how you can keep LeBron out of the top-10 and relegate him to 11-15 range. Based on what? Why not 11-20 range? I understand the fact that you don't like him being his own GM, nobody does (except Miami fans and maybe a few in LA).  But come on, give the guy his due.

It is legitimately indefensible to try and argue LeBron is anything but top 5 at absolute worst

top 5: Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Jordan.  Lebron comes after them.  Kareem would be ahead of him too.

LeBron is definitely ahead of Magic and Wilt I would say. I would also rate Kareem above all you mentioned except MJ. MJ, Kareem and LBJ are the top 3. Then Bird, then Russell.