GOAT: Jordan or James?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think that MJ is shady, but not sure about PEDs. Nor do I think I care about that. I like baseball and have zero confidence that my favorite players (manny and Papi) were clean. I don’t think this should influence who was better.

I also don’t think MJs gambling addiction has an impact on his basketball legacy. I don’t think it is fair to say that he would have won championships  if he didn’t take off 1998, 1999, and 2000. Lebron’s longevity vs MJ is a real argument.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.

I didn’t realize people took this seriously. Like at all. Can someone walk me through this logically what exactly is the gambling conspiracy in a way that would make any sense?

 If Jordan was gambling on basketball games there is no way in heck he is just told to stay away for 1.5 years. Also why in the world would he bet basketball when it is known that he was playing millions of dollars betting on golfing against his friends, playing blackjack or roulette? He could do football or baseball or gymnastics, but instead wanted to fix games? He needed like the thrill of getting caught and losing all his income to feel alive? If anyone believes this part I don’t really know how much further the conversation can go cause it is completely illogical and he wild have never came back.

The other weird explanation is he was losing tons of money gambling and owed people money so stern forced him to retire and forfeit his massive salary so he had no way of paying people back? Was stern trying to get him killed? I am absolutely begging for someone to give me a logical explanation for a way it would make sense for jordan to be forced to play baseball because of gambling. (And yes I know some of this is just Lebron fans doing more nonsense like with the steroids earlier in the thread).

MJ was accused of not paying his debts. https://golf.com/news/michael-jordan-richard-esquinas-golf-gambling/?amp=1

Esquinas told the Union-Tribune the NBA’s subsequent investigation was a “sham” and that Jordan was unfair to lump him in with a crowd of people “that he shouldn’t have been around.” But what seems to still sting more than anything is the fact that Jordan didn’t pay up.

“For whatever reason, I think a lot of this is just the fact that he did not want the loss,” Esquinas told the Union-Tribune. “He didn’t want to give me a W. Maybe he was embarrassed. Writing me a check was an L to him … I don’t understand when a man won’t pay.”

Shady MJ

Nobody is saying mj didn’t gamble. He gambled a lot. My question that I am giving up on you or anyone answering is how this would cause the nba to suspend him. You are sharing a story about him not paying a guy he golfed with and knew personally. What does this have to do with an nba suspension? I’ve written out about 10 reasons it doesn’t make any sense for the nba to suspend him and you are not responding to anything I am actually saying so I’ll just give up on the discussion with you.

Edit: I guess Moranis just proposed the most illogical theory to date. The nba thought taking away his job and giving him more free time would somehow cause him to get an addictive trait under control all while taking away his income. Rich

Just because you don’t like answer does not make it illogical. MJ was the biggest name in the game that was fighting a BS stigma that the NBA was for bad boys (bc Iverson had tats and wore baggy shorts- laughable stuff). There were tons of thinly veiled comments by wealthy corporate fans that they didn’t want to watch a bunch of thugs. MJ’s gambling escapades were not veiled, but public as he was obnoxious by all accounts. MJ didn’t have money issues but his gambling issues got shady.

[celticsclay]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.

I didn’t realize people took this seriously. Like at all. Can someone walk me through this logically what exactly is the gambling conspiracy in a way that would make any sense?

 If Jordan was gambling on basketball games there is no way in heck he is just told to stay away for 1.5 years. Also why in the world would he bet basketball when it is known that he was playing millions of dollars betting on golfing against his friends, playing blackjack or roulette? He could do football or baseball or gymnastics, but instead wanted to fix games? He needed like the thrill of getting caught and losing all his income to feel alive? If anyone believes this part I don’t really know how much further the conversation can go cause it is completely illogical and he wild have never came back.

The other weird explanation is he was losing tons of money gambling and owed people money so stern forced him to retire and forfeit his massive salary so he had no way of paying people back? Was stern trying to get him killed? I am absolutely begging for someone to give me a logical explanation for a way it would make sense for jordan to be forced to play baseball because of gambling. (And yes I know some of this is just Lebron fans doing more nonsense like with the steroids earlier in the thread).

MJ was accused of not paying his debts. https://golf.com/news/michael-jordan-richard-esquinas-golf-gambling/?amp=1

Esquinas told the Union-Tribune the NBA’s subsequent investigation was a “sham” and that Jordan was unfair to lump him in with a crowd of people “that he shouldn’t have been around.” But what seems to still sting more than anything is the fact that Jordan didn’t pay up.

“For whatever reason, I think a lot of this is just the fact that he did not want the loss,” Esquinas told the Union-Tribune. “He didn’t want to give me a W. Maybe he was embarrassed. Writing me a check was an L to him … I don’t understand when a man won’t pay.”

Shady MJ

Nobody is saying mj didn’t gamble. He gambled a lot. My question that I am giving up on you or anyone answering is how this would cause the nba to suspend him. You are sharing a story about him not paying a guy he golfed with and knew personally. What does this have to do with an nba suspension? I’ve written out about 10 reasons it doesn’t make any sense for the nba to suspend him and you are not responding to anything I am actually saying so I’ll just give up on the discussion with you.

Edit: I guess Moranis just proposed the most illogical theory to date. The nba thought taking away his job and giving him more free time would somehow cause him to get an addictive trait under control all while taking away his income. Rich

Just because you don’t like answer does not make it illogical. MJ was the biggest name in the game that was fighting a BS stigma that the NBA was for bad boys (bc Iverson had tats and wore baggy shorts- laughable stuff). There were tons of thinly veiled comments by wealthy corporate fans that they didn’t want to watch a bunch of thugs. MJ’s gambling escapades were not veiled, but public as he was obnoxious by all accounts. MJ didn’t have money issues but his gambling issues got shady.

I really feel like I am talking to you in a different language right now. It’s very confusing.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

[Kernewek]

As an aside, Allen Iverson didn't have very many tattoos in 1993 when Jordan's first retirement was announced. Or in 1998. He didn't even start the season with cornrows, as Getty seems to validate my memory:

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Iverson was the man. They tried to pin that bowling alley murder in him and he still persevered! Loved his swagger and loved his courage.

[celticsclay]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

Keeping short cause I have no idea what you are trying to say. Everyone, including me admits jordan has gambled. If you call this shady, That is fine no argument. What does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about? What in your mind are you trying to argue about with me?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

Keeping short cause I have no idea what you are trying to say. Everyone, including me admits jordan has gambled. If you call this shady, That is fine no argument. What does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about? What in your mind are you trying to argue about with me?

I’m not trying to argue anything with you. You begged, then kept asking people to explain something. Moranis and I tried, but clearly not to your specifications. I was saying that Jordan was shady, but still the Goat. I don’t think this is controversial. Have a wonderful night.

[Moranis]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

Keeping short cause I have no idea what you are trying to say. Everyone, including me admits jordan has gambled. If you call this shady, That is fine no argument. What does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about? What in your mind are you trying to argue about with me?

This lays out the suspension theory.  As I said, I doubt he was suspended but there are some things that are just weird like Jordan saying he'd come back in 5 years if Stern let him and the league dropping its investigation literally the day after Jordan retired.

https://clutchpoints.com/everything-we-know-about-the-1993-94-michael-jordan-secret-suspension-rumors-due-to-gambling/

Eventually, Jordan’s gambling got him in serious hot water. In the 1992 trial of convicted drug dealer Slim Bouler (who would be sentenced to nine years for money laundering and conspiracy), Jordan testified that he owed Bouler $57,000 from golf bets after initially saying the check was for a loan.

In 1993, San Diego businessman Richard Equinas claimed Jordan owed him $1.25 million in golf debts. Around the same time, his gambling caused a public stir after a putrid showing vs. the Knicks in Game 2 of the Eastern Conference Finals following a late night in Atlantic City. (He bounced back).

After the Bulls three-peated, the NBA reprimanded Michael Jordan and launched (limited) investigations into his gambling. The probe revealed that checks signed by Jordan were found in ongoing criminal investigations, including $108,000 in checks in the briefcase of a murdered bail bondsman, Eddie Bow, who had attended a few “Mike’s Time” gatherings of poker and golf hosted by Jordan.

Jordan was never found to have bet on games. In “Money Players Days and Nights Inside the New NBA,” Armen Keteyian says Equinas told NBA investigators he overheard Jordan inquiring about point spreads on the phone.

“I never bet on games; I bet on myself and that was golf,” Michael Jordan said in “The Last Dance.”

“It never reached epic crisis levels in my view,” Stern said.

Four months later, Jordan’s abrupt retirement in October—followed by the NBA clearing Jordan one day later—fueled speculation that he was being secretly suspended by Stern. The fact that Jordan said that he’d consider a return “five years down the road … if David Stern lets me back in the league” during his retirement press conference raised eyebrows, too. When Jordan announced he would head to Birmingham, Alabama to play baseball, it appeared to some as a convenient distraction to allow the most marketable human on the planet to save his image.

Michael Jordan seems to have stayed out of trouble since, and a catalog of amusing anecdotes indicates that MJ is still happily throwing money around to satisfy his competitive urges. With a net worth of $2.1 billion, I can’t blame him.

Whether he was suspended or not, he cleaned up his gambling to the point he didn't have the same sort of scandals just waiting to break. He still gambled, he was just a lot smarter about it.  He stopped doing it during the playoffs.  He stopped writing checks to gangsters and criminals.  Etc.  So it appears his time away did in fact "straighten" him out.  And since he never bet on basketball (or sports at all), there really weren't any rules he violated.  It was basically a cooling off period so he'd stop being an idiot about his gambling.  Again that is if you believe the theory.  I think he just needed time away because his dad died and he knew the Bulls needed to refresh, but as conspiracy theories go, the gambling suspension isn't far fetched.  It is why guys like Bill Simmons were spouting it for years.

[celticsclay]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

Keeping short cause I have no idea what you are trying to say. Everyone, including me admits jordan has gambled. If you call this shady, That is fine no argument. What does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about? What in your mind are you trying to argue about with me?

This lays out the suspension theory.  As I said, I doubt he was suspended but there are some things that are just weird like Jordan saying he'd come back in 5 years if Stern let him and the league dropping its investigation literally the day after Jordan retired.

https://clutchpoints.com/everything-we-know-about-the-1993-94-michael-jordan-secret-suspension-rumors-due-to-gambling/

Eventually, Jordan’s gambling got him in serious hot water. In the 1992 trial of convicted drug dealer Slim Bouler (who would be sentenced to nine years for money laundering and conspiracy), Jordan testified that he owed Bouler $57,000 from golf bets after initially saying the check was for a loan.

In 1993, San Diego businessman Richard Equinas claimed Jordan owed him $1.25 million in golf debts. Around the same time, his gambling caused a public stir after a putrid showing vs. the Knicks in Game 2 of the Eastern Conference Finals following a late night in Atlantic City. (He bounced back).

After the Bulls three-peated, the NBA reprimanded Michael Jordan and launched (limited) investigations into his gambling. The probe revealed that checks signed by Jordan were found in ongoing criminal investigations, including $108,000 in checks in the briefcase of a murdered bail bondsman, Eddie Bow, who had attended a few “Mike’s Time” gatherings of poker and golf hosted by Jordan.

Jordan was never found to have bet on games. In “Money Players Days and Nights Inside the New NBA,” Armen Keteyian says Equinas told NBA investigators he overheard Jordan inquiring about point spreads on the phone.

“I never bet on games; I bet on myself and that was golf,” Michael Jordan said in “The Last Dance.”

“It never reached epic crisis levels in my view,” Stern said.

Four months later, Jordan’s abrupt retirement in October—followed by the NBA clearing Jordan one day later—fueled speculation that he was being secretly suspended by Stern. The fact that Jordan said that he’d consider a return “five years down the road … if David Stern lets me back in the league” during his retirement press conference raised eyebrows, too. When Jordan announced he would head to Birmingham, Alabama to play baseball, it appeared to some as a convenient distraction to allow the most marketable human on the planet to save his image.

Michael Jordan seems to have stayed out of trouble since, and a catalog of amusing anecdotes indicates that MJ is still happily throwing money around to satisfy his competitive urges. With a net worth of $2.1 billion, I can’t blame him.

Whether he was suspended or not, he cleaned up his gambling to the point he didn't have the same sort of scandals just waiting to break. He still gambled, he was just a lot smarter about it.  He stopped doing it during the playoffs.  He stopped writing checks to gangsters and criminals.  Etc.  So it appears his time away did in fact "straighten" him out.  And since he never bet on basketball (or sports at all), there really weren't any rules he violated.  It was basically a cooling off period so he'd stop being an idiot about his gambling.  Again that is if you believe the theory.  I think he just needed time away because his dad died and he knew the Bulls needed to refresh, but as conspiracy theories go, the gambling suspension isn't far fetched.  It is why guys like Bill Simmons were spouting it for years.

Well tp mo for actually contributing some substance on this and providing a theory. As you yourself point out, this is all pretty flimsy (and some cases quite laughable) in terms of him actually violating any rules (and 90% of nba stars even today do have a few shady characters they are interacting with gambling or otherwise). When you are making what Michael was between his salary and being the original pitchman for Nike, Gatorade, Hanes, Wheaties, McDonald’s,   Video games, autographs owing someone 57k seems pretty trivial (sadly for the rest of us). I also agree with you I think he wanted time to get over his dads death and I think his footage from his final title in the last dance was very telling where he just uncontrollably sobbed by himself. If we both agree he wasn’t actually suspended and that theory doesn’t make any logical sense we can probably drop it and go back to discussing on court stuff.

[celticsclay]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

Keeping short cause I have no idea what you are trying to say. Everyone, including me admits jordan has gambled. If you call this shady, That is fine no argument. What does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about? What in your mind are you trying to argue about with me?

I’m not trying to argue anything with you. You begged, then kept asking people to explain something. Moranis and I tried, but clearly not to your specifications. I was saying that Jordan was shady, but still the Goat. I don’t think this is controversial. Have a wonderful night.

You didn’t explain in any coherent way why you thought he would be suspended by the nba. You just kept randomly throwing around words like shady and “def inconsistent.” If you think you did actually logically explain why the nba would suspend their best player, you respectfully have to improve communicating a concise point. Moranis actually did finally share the theory in the post below this and there isn’t really a lot of meat to it (which could have just been clarified a few pages back but happy he took the time to do it).

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

Keeping short cause I have no idea what you are trying to say. Everyone, including me admits jordan has gambled. If you call this shady, That is fine no argument. What does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about? What in your mind are you trying to argue about with me?

I’m not trying to argue anything with you. You begged, then kept asking people to explain something. Moranis and I tried, but clearly not to your specifications. I was saying that Jordan was shady, but still the Goat. I don’t think this is controversial. Have a wonderful night.

You didn’t explain in any coherent way why you thought he would be suspended by the nba. You just kept randomly throwing around words like shady and “def inconsistent.” If you think you did actually logically explain why the nba would suspend their best player, you respectfully have to improve communicating a concise point. Moranis actually did finally share the theory in the post below this and there isn’t really a lot of meat to it (which could have just been clarified a few pages back but happy he took the time to do it).

Yikes man. there are many that think that MJs gambling problem would present as “dysregulated” or “unethical”. This would have a negative impact on the image of the league. Stern was very concerned with this image- remember dress codes on the side lines?

At this point, you can just say you disagree. I imagine this is unsatisfying for you, so keep throwing your cute little jabs and get your last word in.

Btw- have you contributed substance to this? Who is better?

[Birdman]

My take between Jordan & James:

I take Jordan anytime cause he hated to lose & wanted to tear your heart out plus he was hard to stop

James wants everything given to him plus I alway said the guy on steroids..I put him in top 15 all time but not in top 10

[Moranis]

Didn’t Tiger’s stock take a tumble after his womanizing became public? The PGA certainly didn’t like this. The NBA wasn’t psyched that their poster boy at best was a compulsive gambler, and at worst an unethical person.

How else can I help you figure out what many have said about MJ, the NBA, gambling, and his shady practices?

Did it make sense to you that instead of hanging out with his family (what MJ said), he chose to play minor league baseball? That’s def inconsistent.

Keeping short cause I have no idea what you are trying to say. Everyone, including me admits jordan has gambled. If you call this shady, That is fine no argument. What does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about? What in your mind are you trying to argue about with me?

This lays out the suspension theory.  As I said, I doubt he was suspended but there are some things that are just weird like Jordan saying he'd come back in 5 years if Stern let him and the league dropping its investigation literally the day after Jordan retired.

https://clutchpoints.com/everything-we-know-about-the-1993-94-michael-jordan-secret-suspension-rumors-due-to-gambling/

Eventually, Jordan’s gambling got him in serious hot water. In the 1992 trial of convicted drug dealer Slim Bouler (who would be sentenced to nine years for money laundering and conspiracy), Jordan testified that he owed Bouler $57,000 from golf bets after initially saying the check was for a loan.

In 1993, San Diego businessman Richard Equinas claimed Jordan owed him $1.25 million in golf debts. Around the same time, his gambling caused a public stir after a putrid showing vs. the Knicks in Game 2 of the Eastern Conference Finals following a late night in Atlantic City. (He bounced back).

After the Bulls three-peated, the NBA reprimanded Michael Jordan and launched (limited) investigations into his gambling. The probe revealed that checks signed by Jordan were found in ongoing criminal investigations, including $108,000 in checks in the briefcase of a murdered bail bondsman, Eddie Bow, who had attended a few “Mike’s Time” gatherings of poker and golf hosted by Jordan.

Jordan was never found to have bet on games. In “Money Players Days and Nights Inside the New NBA,” Armen Keteyian says Equinas told NBA investigators he overheard Jordan inquiring about point spreads on the phone.

“I never bet on games; I bet on myself and that was golf,” Michael Jordan said in “The Last Dance.”

“It never reached epic crisis levels in my view,” Stern said.

Four months later, Jordan’s abrupt retirement in October—followed by the NBA clearing Jordan one day later—fueled speculation that he was being secretly suspended by Stern. The fact that Jordan said that he’d consider a return “five years down the road … if David Stern lets me back in the league” during his retirement press conference raised eyebrows, too. When Jordan announced he would head to Birmingham, Alabama to play baseball, it appeared to some as a convenient distraction to allow the most marketable human on the planet to save his image.

Michael Jordan seems to have stayed out of trouble since, and a catalog of amusing anecdotes indicates that MJ is still happily throwing money around to satisfy his competitive urges. With a net worth of $2.1 billion, I can’t blame him.

Whether he was suspended or not, he cleaned up his gambling to the point he didn't have the same sort of scandals just waiting to break. He still gambled, he was just a lot smarter about it.  He stopped doing it during the playoffs.  He stopped writing checks to gangsters and criminals.  Etc.  So it appears his time away did in fact "straighten" him out.  And since he never bet on basketball (or sports at all), there really weren't any rules he violated.  It was basically a cooling off period so he'd stop being an idiot about his gambling.  Again that is if you believe the theory.  I think he just needed time away because his dad died and he knew the Bulls needed to refresh, but as conspiracy theories go, the gambling suspension isn't far fetched.  It is why guys like Bill Simmons were spouting it for years.

Well tp mo for actually contributing some substance on this and providing a theory. As you yourself point out, this is all pretty flimsy (and some cases quite laughable) in terms of him actually violating any rules (and 90% of nba stars even today do have a few shady characters they are interacting with gambling or otherwise). When you are making what Michael was between his salary and being the original pitchman for Nike, Gatorade, Hanes, Wheaties, McDonald’s,   Video games, autographs owing someone 57k seems pretty trivial (sadly for the rest of us). I also agree with you I think he wanted time to get over his dads death and I think his footage from his final title in the last dance was very telling where he just uncontrollably sobbed by himself. If we both agree he wasn’t actually suspended and that theory doesn’t make any logical sense we can probably drop it and go back to discussing on court stuff.

I think it makes fine logical sense. I just don't think it is true.   

[Surferdad]

My take between Jordan & James:

I take Jordan anytime cause he hated to lose & wanted to tear your heart out plus he was hard to stop

James wants everything given to him plus I alway said the guy on steroids..I put him in top 15 all time but not in top 10

If you look at his numbers/championships etc., I don't see how you can keep LeBron out of the top-10 and relegate him to 11-15 range. Based on what? Why not 11-20 range? I understand the fact that you don't like him being his own GM, nobody does (except Miami fans and maybe a few in LA).  But come on, give the guy his due.