Is Grant a goner? (Yes: Traded to DAL for second rounders)

[Celtics4ever]

How does that compare to Michael Jordan?

1984-85 Knocked out in 1st round 1-3
1885-86 Swept in 1st round 0-3
1986-87 Swept in 1st round 0-3
1987-88 Knocked out in 2nd round 1-4
1988-89 Knocked out in ECF 2-4

Finally wins a championship in year 7. Is that better, worse, or about the same? The 1st round sweeps he might as well have stayed home.

Quite frankly, that is absurd.   I will bet you 1,000 tommy points Luka does not win 6 championships.   

[W8ting2McHale]

How does that compare to Michael Jordan?

1984-85 Knocked out in 1st round 1-3
1885-86 Swept in 1st round 0-3
1986-87 Swept in 1st round 0-3
1987-88 Knocked out in 2nd round 1-4
1988-89 Knocked out in ECF 2-4

Finally wins a championship in year 7. Is that better, worse, or about the same? The 1st round sweeps he might as well have stayed home.

Quite frankly, that is absurd.   I will bet you 1,000 tommy points Luka does not win 6 championships.

It’s not comparing Doncic to what Jordan became, so no need to wager any Tommy Points. The intent was to point out how absurd it was for you to write Doncic off after his age 24 season that ended with a forced tank job.

Why should Doncic be required to carry his team to a championship within his first 5 seasons when arguably the best player in NBA history was not able to?

Sure Kobe had a ring at 21, but he wasn’t the force behind the win. Magic and Bird were young enough too, but they also had a lot more help than Doncic. How about Lebron? Age 27. Tatum has had more play off success, but he doesn’t have a ring either.

There’s no basis to claim that Doncic isn’t a top player or superstar because he’s not won a ring by age 24. 

[gouki88]

How does that compare to Michael Jordan?

1984-85 Knocked out in 1st round 1-3
1885-86 Swept in 1st round 0-3
1986-87 Swept in 1st round 0-3
1987-88 Knocked out in 2nd round 1-4
1988-89 Knocked out in ECF 2-4

Finally wins a championship in year 7. Is that better, worse, or about the same? The 1st round sweeps he might as well have stayed home.

Quite frankly, that is absurd.   I will bet you 1,000 tommy points Luka does not win 6 championships.

How does it compare with Giannis and Jokic at the same age? You came with the absurdity

[Celtics4ever]

Jordan played elite defense, Luka does not.

I love Luka, he is top five player in the league.  He is a superstar and absolute stud on the court.

How does it compare with Giannis and Jokic at the same age? You came with the absurdity

Giannis

2023    1-4    L W L L L    Heat    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2021-2022    4-1    W L W W W    Bulls    3-4    W L W L W L L    Celtics    -    -    -    -    -    -
2020-2021    4-0    W W W W    Heat    4-3    L L W W L W W    Nets    4-2    L W W L W W    Hawks    4-2    L L W W W W    Suns
2019-2020    4-1    L W W W W    Magic    1-4    L L L W L    Heat    -    -    -    -    -    -
2018-2019    4-0    W W W W    Pistons    4-1    L W W W W    Celtics    2-4    W W L L L L    Raptors    -    -    -
2017-2018    3-4    L L W W L W L    Celtics    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2016-2017    2-4    W L W L L L    Raptors    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2015-2016    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2014-2015    2-4    L L L W W L    Bulls    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Milwaukee-Bucks/16/Playoff-History

Jokic

22-2023     4-1    W W W L W    Timberwolves    4-2    W W L L W W    Suns    4-0    W W W W    Lakers    4-1    W L W W W    Heat
2021-2022    1-4    L L L W L    Warriors    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2020-2021    4-2    L W W L W W    Trail Blazers    0-4    L L L L    Suns    -    -    -    -    -    -
2019-2020    4-3    W L L L W W W    Jazz    4-3    L W L L W W W    Clippers    1-4    L L W L L    Lakers    -    -    -
2018-2019    4-3    L W L W W L W    Spurs    3-4    W L L W W L L    Trail Blazers    -    -    -    -    -    -
2017-2018    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2016-2017    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2015-2016

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Denver-Nuggets/7/Playoff-History

So one can see Giannis was better at getting his team in the playoffs  from the get go than Donic, Jokic had three years to get into the playoff swing and steadily improved.    Now this can be related to who they play with , their GM, etc but it is interesting to see their affect.   I would argue that Jokic is the best on his list at making his team mates better.

Code: [Select]

Now for our guys

Tatum

   W W L W L W    Hawks    4-3    L W W L L W W    Sixers    3-4    L L L W W W L    Heat    -    -    -
2021-2022    4-0    W W W W    Nets    4-3    L W L W L W W    Bucks    4-3    L W L W W L W    Heat    2-4    W L W L L L    Warriors
2020-2021    1-4    L L W L L    Nets    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2019-2020    4-0    W W W W    Sixers    4-3    W W L L W L W    Raptors    2-4    L L W L W L    Heat    -    -    -
2018-2019    4-0    W W W W    Pacers    1-4    W L L L L    Bucks    -    -    -    -    -    -
2017-2018    4-3    W W L L W L W    Bucks    4-1    W W W L W    Sixers    3-4    W W L L W L L    Cavaliers    -    -    -

Brown same as Tatum with one year additional

   
2022-2023    4-2 W W L W L W    Hawks    4-3    L W W L L W W    Sixers    3-4    L L L W W W L    Heat    -    -    -
2021-2022    4-0    W W W W    Nets    4-3    L W L W L W W    Bucks    4-3    L W L W W L W    Heat    2-4    W L W L L L    Warriors
2020-2021    1-4    L L W L L    Nets    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
2019-2020    4-0    W W W W    Sixers    4-3    W W L L W L W    Raptors    2-4    L L W L W L    Heat    -    -    -
2018-2019    4-0    W W W W    Pacers    1-4    W L L L L    Bucks    -    -    -    -    -    -
2017-2018    4-3    W W L L W L W    Bucks    4-1    W W W L W    Sixers    3-4    W W L L W L L    Cavaliers    -    -    -
2016-2017    4-2    L L W W W W    Bulls    4-3    W W L L W L W    Wizards    1-4    L L W L L    Cavaliers    -    -    --    -    -

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Boston-Celtics/2/Playoff-History

[cman88]

So, what teams currently are over the 2nd apron?

[Roy H.]

So, what teams currently are over the 2nd apron?

Phoenix, the Clippers and Golden State, I think.

[boscel33]

So, what teams currently are over the 2nd apron?

Phoenix, the Clippers and Golden State, I think.

Some good info from Keith Smith:

Nine NBA teams are currently hard capped at the first tax apron via my tracking:

CHI: Used NTMLE
CLE: Used NTMLE & BAE
DAL: Acquired player via S&T
HOU: Acquired player via S&T
LAL: Used NTMLE & BAE
MIN: Used NTMLE
NOP: Used NTMLE
NYK: Used NTMLE
TOR: Used NTMLE & BAE

Nine NBA teams are currently over the luxury tax line:

GSW: $41.9M over
LAC: $28.8M over
PHX: $26.6M over
MIL: $14.4M over
MIA: $12.9M over
BOS: $11.3M over
DEN: $5.6M over
PHI: $4.3M over
NOP: $2.9M over

Spending power each NBA team has:

EAST
ATL: $10.1M NTMLE
BOS: Vet Min
BKN: $12.4M NTMLE
CHA: $12.4M NTMLE
CHI: $6.2M NTMLE
CLE: $3.6M NTMLE
DET: $7.7M Room
IND: $7.7M Room
MIA: Vet Min
MIL: Vet Min
NYK: $4.5M BAE
ORL: $7.7M Room
PHI: Vet Min
TOR: Vet Min
WAS: $12.4M NTMLE

WEST
DAL: $12.4M NTMLE
DEN: $5M Tax MLE
GSW: Vet Min
HOU: $7.7M Room
LAC: Vet Min
LAL: Vet Min
MEM: $12.4M NTMLE
MIN: $4.5M BAE
NOP: $4.1M NTMLE
OKC: $7.7M Room
PHX: Vet Min
POR: $10.6M NTMLE
SAC: $7.7M Room
SAS: $7.7M Room
UTA: $7.7M Room

There are a lot of caveats to it, such as Boston has a TPE but you can't use it to sign a player, only in a trade, according to Keith.

[Roy H.]

So, what teams currently are over the 2nd apron?

Phoenix, the Clippers and Golden State, I think.

Some good info from Keith Smith:

Nine NBA teams are currently hard capped at the first tax apron via my tracking:

CHI: Used NTMLE
CLE: Used NTMLE & BAE
DAL: Acquired player via S&T
HOU: Acquired player via S&T
LAL: Used NTMLE & BAE
MIN: Used NTMLE
NOP: Used NTMLE
NYK: Used NTMLE
TOR: Used NTMLE & BAE

Nine NBA teams are currently over the luxury tax line:

GSW: $41.9M over
LAC: $28.8M over
PHX: $26.6M over
MIL: $14.4M over
MIA: $12.9M over
BOS: $11.3M over
DEN: $5.6M over
PHI: $4.3M over
NOP: $2.9M over

Spending power each NBA team has:

EAST
ATL: $10.1M NTMLE
BOS: Vet Min
BKN: $12.4M NTMLE
CHA: $12.4M NTMLE
CHI: $6.2M NTMLE
CLE: $3.6M NTMLE
DET: $7.7M Room
IND: $7.7M Room
MIA: Vet Min
MIL: Vet Min
NYK: $4.5M BAE
ORL: $7.7M Room
PHI: Vet Min
TOR: Vet Min
WAS: $12.4M NTMLE

WEST
DAL: $12.4M NTMLE
DEN: $5M Tax MLE
GSW: Vet Min
HOU: $7.7M Room
LAC: Vet Min
LAL: Vet Min
MEM: $12.4M NTMLE
MIN: $4.5M BAE
NOP: $4.1M NTMLE
OKC: $7.7M Room
PHX: Vet Min
POR: $10.6M NTMLE
SAC: $7.7M Room
SAS: $7.7M Room
UTA: $7.7M Room

There are a lot of caveats to it, such as Boston has a TPE but you can't use it to sign a player, only in a trade, according to Keith.

Yeah.  For instance, the Celtics still have the Taxpayer MLE.  They just won't use it, because it would hard cap them at the second apron.

[Vermont Green]

Yeah.  For instance, the Celtics still have the Taxpayer MLE.  They just won't use it, because it would hard cap them at the second apron.

Yes, if they hard cap themselves by using what would only be a portion of the TPMLE, that would prevent them from using the TPE or signing any other vet mins, at least I think that is the case.

Or can they still sign a player with vet min, even if they are hard capped?

[Vermont Green]

So, what teams currently are over the 2nd apron?

Phoenix, the Clippers and Golden State, I think.

This is where things stood a week'ish ago:

Here is the list of the top 2023-24 spenders currently based on Spotrac Active Cap:

1.   GSW    $206M
2.   LAC     $194M
3.   PHX     $190M
4.   MIA     $178M
5.   MIL     $177M
6.   BOS    $177M
7.   DEN    $175M

So yes, I am seeing the same that GSW, LAC, and PHX are over the second apron.

[Celtics2021]

Yeah.  For instance, the Celtics still have the Taxpayer MLE.  They just won't use it, because it would hard cap them at the second apron.

Yes, if they hard cap themselves by using what would only be a portion of the TPMLE, that would prevent them from using the TPE or signing any other vet mins, at least I think that is the case.

Or can they still sign a player with vet min, even if they are hard capped?

Nope, no vet mins unless they dump salary in a trade.  Hard cap is a hard cap.

[Vermont Green]

Yeah.  For instance, the Celtics still have the Taxpayer MLE.  They just won't use it, because it would hard cap them at the second apron.

Yes, if they hard cap themselves by using what would only be a portion of the TPMLE, that would prevent them from using the TPE or signing any other vet mins, at least I think that is the case.

Or can they still sign a player with vet min, even if they are hard capped?

Nope, no vet mins unless they dump salary in a trade.  Hard cap is a hard cap.

Even if you only have 12 or 13 players signed?  Or would the cap holds associated with the empty roster spots prevent that scenario?

[Celtics2021]

Yeah.  For instance, the Celtics still have the Taxpayer MLE.  They just won't use it, because it would hard cap them at the second apron.

Yes, if they hard cap themselves by using what would only be a portion of the TPMLE, that would prevent them from using the TPE or signing any other vet mins, at least I think that is the case.

Or can they still sign a player with vet min, even if they are hard capped?

Nope, no vet mins unless they dump salary in a trade.  Hard cap is a hard cap.

Even if you only have 12 or 13 players signed?  Or would the cap holds associated with the empty roster spots prevent that scenario?

I think it puts in a roster hold to get you to 14.  I forget what the hold amount is (vet min. Vs rookie min).

[keevsnick]

Yeah.  For instance, the Celtics still have the Taxpayer MLE.  They just won't use it, because it would hard cap them at the second apron.

Yes, if they hard cap themselves by using what would only be a portion of the TPMLE, that would prevent them from using the TPE or signing any other vet mins, at least I think that is the case.

Or can they still sign a player with vet min, even if they are hard capped?

Nope, no vet mins unless they dump salary in a trade.  Hard cap is a hard cap.

Even if you only have 12 or 13 players signed?  Or would the cap holds associated with the empty roster spots prevent that scenario?

I'm not sure exactly how this works, but I assume its something to that effect. Basically they would not be able to use whatever portion of the tax-MLE that would prevent them from filling out a legal roster.

They aren't going to use the tax-MLE. The TPE is bigger than the MLE, gives them a wider range of players they could target, and doesn't hard cap (which is good in case they want a big mid-season trade). They've accumulated a ton of extra seconds, my guess is by the trade deadline they flip 2-4 of those seconds along with the TPE into a rotation guy.

[Vermont Green]

Yeah.  For instance, the Celtics still have the Taxpayer MLE.  They just won't use it, because it would hard cap them at the second apron.

Yes, if they hard cap themselves by using what would only be a portion of the TPMLE, that would prevent them from using the TPE or signing any other vet mins, at least I think that is the case.

Or can they still sign a player with vet min, even if they are hard capped?

Nope, no vet mins unless they dump salary in a trade.  Hard cap is a hard cap.

Even if you only have 12 or 13 players signed?  Or would the cap holds associated with the empty roster spots prevent that scenario?

I think it puts in a roster hold to get you to 14.  I forget what the hold amount is (vet min. Vs rookie min).

OK, these roster holds, whether 13 or 14, must be how they work around using the MLE if you don't have a "full" roster.  I checked HOU on Spotrac.  They have 13 players on the roster plus 2-2 ways but no cap holds listed for roster spots.  This makes me think that the number is 13.  But it is moot for the Celtics, they are at 14, and if they use the TPMLE, they won't be able to add a vet min unless they waive Champagnie or do something else to free up a roster spot