Is Grant a goner? (Yes: Traded to DAL for second rounders)

[Surferdad]

arent alot of the same people who complained that Grant isn't worth it to keep now complaining that we didn't match him? 

Honestly, Losing Grant isn't bad in a bubble. the return is disappointing. Its the lack of other moves for the bench that make it more glaring.

We're not the only team that is losing players for inadequate returns. The new CBA is making it a lot harder for front offices to maintain deep benches, especially when you have like $100m tied up in three players and then $25m on the fourth (even before the extensions and supermaxes coming down the pike). Apparently we're $7m below the second apron as it is, even before Jaylen's supermax and KP's extension next season, so if we use the MLE it would hardcap us at the second apron for the season. The penalties are a lot more debilitating than just having to pay tax. They obviously don't start till next season but that's probably where the reluctance to carry long term salary - like if we had asked for incoming salary to match GWill's new contract - is coming from. So we can't even blame Wyc for being a cheapskate like we have been for the last few years 

• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
• A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

Brad probably doesn't want to get hardcapped for the sake of filling out his deep bench. Sucks for us as fans, because the team will always have a weakness in the roster, but I think that's by design with the new CBA - no more Warriors superteams that linger because of an owner that is willing to pay $170m in tax a year.

But maybe Brad's not finished. He does have that MLE if he wants to get hardcapped, and the TPE if he doesn't. But I suspect neither will be used until midway through the season, when the needs are more obvious, if they get used at all. I know - BORING 

TP, Ozgod. 1st post I read this morning and it perfectly summarizes the situation and why.

[Roy H.]

arent alot of the same people who complained that Grant isn't worth it to keep now complaining that we didn't match him? 

Honestly, Losing Grant isn't bad in a bubble. the return is disappointing. Its the lack of other moves for the bench that make it more glaring.

We're not the only team that is losing players for inadequate returns. The new CBA is making it a lot harder for front offices to maintain deep benches, especially when you have like $100m tied up in three players and then $25m on the fourth (even before the extensions and supermaxes coming down the pike). Apparently we're $7m below the second apron as it is, even before Jaylen's supermax and KP's extension next season, so if we use the MLE it would hardcap us at the second apron for the season. The penalties are a lot more debilitating than just having to pay tax. They obviously don't start till next season but that's probably where the reluctance to carry long term salary - like if we had asked for incoming salary to match GWill's new contract - is coming from. So we can't even blame Wyc for being a cheapskate like we have been for the last few years 

• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
• A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

Brad probably doesn't want to get hardcapped for the sake of filling out his deep bench. Sucks for us as fans, because the team will always have a weakness in the roster, but I think that's by design with the new CBA - no more Warriors superteams that linger because of an owner that is willing to pay $170m in tax a year.

But maybe Brad's not finished. He does have that MLE if he wants to get hardcapped, and the TPE if he doesn't. But I suspect neither will be used until midway through the season, when the needs are more obvious, if they get used at all. I know - BORING 

It's the bolded part that makes it disappointing.

We keep hearing that cheap contracts are going to be more and more important, which is great.  You get those cheap contracts through draft picks and minimum contracts.

To date, Brad hasn't used a first rounder, and hasn't "hit" on a second rounder.  So, it's hard to have a lot of faith there.  And, in free agency, he's been lousy at finding competent players at the minimum to date.  He's very good at trading, but as you note, trading is going to harder going forward; there are some restrictions on trades -- such as having to be within 110% of contract value -- for teams even over the first apron.

If the Celtics had signed Richardson and Craig, I don't think you'd hear many complaints about moving on from Grant.  But, the worry is that we've essentially lost four rotation / quasi-rotation pieces, and have replaced them with KP. 

[boscel33]

arent alot of the same people who complained that Grant isn't worth it to keep now complaining that we didn't match him? 

Honestly, Losing Grant isn't bad in a bubble. the return is disappointing. Its the lack of other moves for the bench that make it more glaring.

I'm not sure if the return is really that bad!  I read somewhere that with the new CBA, second round picks are going to have more value and with the depth of the draft in recent years, from a talent perspective, unless you're drafting in the top of the lottery, I can see a lot more seconds making an impact in the NBA.  Let's not forget, as recent as 1989, the draft was seven rounds.  Ask yourself;  are the players better or worse in 89 and are there more talented ones?

[cman88]

arent alot of the same people who complained that Grant isn't worth it to keep now complaining that we didn't match him? 

Honestly, Losing Grant isn't bad in a bubble. the return is disappointing. Its the lack of other moves for the bench that make it more glaring.

We're not the only team that is losing players for inadequate returns. The new CBA is making it a lot harder for front offices to maintain deep benches, especially when you have like $100m tied up in three players and then $25m on the fourth (even before the extensions and supermaxes coming down the pike). Apparently we're $7m below the second apron as it is, even before Jaylen's supermax and KP's extension next season, so if we use the MLE it would hardcap us at the second apron for the season. The penalties are a lot more debilitating than just having to pay tax. They obviously don't start till next season but that's probably where the reluctance to carry long term salary - like if we had asked for incoming salary to match GWill's new contract - is coming from. So we can't even blame Wyc for being a cheapskate like we have been for the last few years 

• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
• A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

Brad probably doesn't want to get hardcapped for the sake of filling out his deep bench. Sucks for us as fans, because the team will always have a weakness in the roster, but I think that's by design with the new CBA - no more Warriors superteams that linger because of an owner that is willing to pay $170m in tax a year.

But maybe Brad's not finished. He does have that MLE if he wants to get hardcapped, and the TPE if he doesn't. But I suspect neither will be used until midway through the season, when the needs are more obvious, if they get used at all. I know - BORING 

It's the bolded part that makes it disappointing.

We keep hearing that cheap contracts are going to be more and more important, which is great.  You get those cheap contracts through draft picks and minimum contracts.

To date, Brad hasn't used a first rounder, and hasn't "hit" on a second rounder.  So, it's hard to have a lot of faith there.  And, in free agency, he's been lousy at finding competent players at the minimum to date.  He's very good at trading, but as you note, trading is going to harder going forward; there are some restrictions on trades -- such as having to be within 110% of contract value -- for teams even over the first apron.

If the Celtics had signed Richardson and Craig, I don't think you'd hear many complaints about moving on from Grant.  But, the worry is that we've essentially lost four rotation / quasi-rotation pieces, and have replaced them with KP.

Yeah this right here.

in a bubble, all Brad signed to the bench are G-league caliber players. If Banton(who will be in the g-league) and Brissett are all he does its very dissapointing as teams like the lakers, Philly, Milwaukee even the Suns! go out and sign NBA veterans who are the type who can win you a game by having some sort of throwback performance (we see this all the time.) to bolster their benches

now, if Brad goes out signs someone like wood/oubre with the $5million then some minimum vets to round out the bench I feel alot better about losing Grant.

But as it stands we are not better today. we are more talented top level, but losing out on the depth. with needs at PF and a scorer off the bench. One thing Danny was always good at was surrounding his teams with Pierce/Garnett/Allen with reliable vets off the bench. the list can go on and on

when you have a championship ready team thats what you do. instead so far Brad is going for unproven "prospect" type guys who cant shoot and will not help them win now.

[Surferdad]

arent alot of the same people who complained that Grant isn't worth it to keep now complaining that we didn't match him? 

Honestly, Losing Grant isn't bad in a bubble. the return is disappointing. Its the lack of other moves for the bench that make it more glaring.

We're not the only team that is losing players for inadequate returns. The new CBA is making it a lot harder for front offices to maintain deep benches, especially when you have like $100m tied up in three players and then $25m on the fourth (even before the extensions and supermaxes coming down the pike). Apparently we're $7m below the second apron as it is, even before Jaylen's supermax and KP's extension next season, so if we use the MLE it would hardcap us at the second apron for the season. The penalties are a lot more debilitating than just having to pay tax. They obviously don't start till next season but that's probably where the reluctance to carry long term salary - like if we had asked for incoming salary to match GWill's new contract - is coming from. So we can't even blame Wyc for being a cheapskate like we have been for the last few years 

• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
• A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

Brad probably doesn't want to get hardcapped for the sake of filling out his deep bench. Sucks for us as fans, because the team will always have a weakness in the roster, but I think that's by design with the new CBA - no more Warriors superteams that linger because of an owner that is willing to pay $170m in tax a year.

But maybe Brad's not finished. He does have that MLE if he wants to get hardcapped, and the TPE if he doesn't. But I suspect neither will be used until midway through the season, when the needs are more obvious, if they get used at all. I know - BORING 

It's the bolded part that makes it disappointing.

We keep hearing that cheap contracts are going to be more and more important, which is great.  You get those cheap contracts through draft picks and minimum contracts.

To date, Brad hasn't used a first rounder, and hasn't "hit" on a second rounder.  So, it's hard to have a lot of faith there.  And, in free agency, he's been lousy at finding competent players at the minimum to date.  He's very good at trading, but as you note, trading is going to harder going forward; there are some restrictions on trades -- such as having to be within 110% of contract value -- for teams even over the first apron.

If the Celtics had signed Richardson and Craig, I don't think you'd hear many complaints about moving on from Grant.  But, the worry is that we've essentially lost four rotation / quasi-rotation pieces, and have replaced them with KP.

Yeah this right here.

in a bubble, all Brad signed to the bench are G-league caliber players. If Banton(who will be in the g-league) and Brissett are all he does its very dissapointing as teams like the lakers, Philly, Milwaukee even the Suns! go out and sign NBA veterans who are the type who can win you a game by having some sort of throwback performance (we see this all the time.) to bolster their benches

now, if Brad goes out signs someone like wood/oubre with the $5million then some minimum vets to round out the bench I feel alot better about losing Grant.

But as it stands we are not better today. we are more talented top level, but losing out on the depth. with needs at PF and a scorer off the bench. One thing Danny was always good at was surrounding his teams with Pierce/Garnett/Allen with reliable vets off the bench. the list can go on and on

when you have a championship ready team thats what you do. instead so far Brad is going for unproven "prospect" type guys who cant shoot and will not help them win now.

Disagree, the team is better today precisely because they consolidated the talent at the top. Bench players do not win you championships, they just help.

[Roy H.]

Disagree, the team is better today precisely because they consolidated the talent at the top. Bench players do not win you championships, they just help.

Well, bench players just won Miami three series, so they can help a lot.

But right now, who on the bench can we rely upon to score?  Brogdon, and realistically nobody else, right?  That's not a very versatile bench, and that's assuming none of them are called to fill in for starters.

[celticinorlando]

I can’t see how anyone says this team is better today. They are extremely top heavy with maybe 6 or 7 legit players.

Bench is massively flawed. Brogdan your only scorer and he’s most of the time hurt.

Where does Boston turn if they have injuries to the starters?

I don’t want to hear about Sam Hauser anymore. Guy is what he is. Spot up shooter that can’t get his own shot and can’t defend.

Brissett is a g leaguer.

Walsh a rookie who can’t shoot.

Banton is a practice player

Where is the the bench scoring coming from again?

The bench is a huge reason the nuggets won the title. They have three or four legit players that had a massive impact.

[Wretch]

This move is 100% related to the 2nd apron in the new CBA. It's a bit disingenuous to complain that other teams are signing "legit" NBA players and the Cs are signing g leaguers. It's been documented that the Ca have tried to sign players like Pat Bev to more than minimum contracts but the July 6 RFA signing date meant vets would have to wait to sign and most vets on the edge of being outbof the league are taking certainty of role and of the early contract.

[gouki88]

I can’t see how anyone says this team is better today. They are extremely top heavy with maybe 6 or 7 legit players.

Bench is massively flawed. Brogdan your only scorer and he’s most of the time hurt.

Where does Boston turn if they have injuries to the starters?

I don’t want to hear about Sam Hauser anymore. Guy is what he is. Spot up shooter that can’t get his own shot and can’t defend.

Brissett is a g leaguer.

Walsh a rookie who can’t shoot.

Banton is a practice player

Where is the the bench scoring coming from again?

The bench is a huge reason the nuggets won the title. They have three or four legit players that had a massive impact.

Is it Horford, Timelord, or both who are “maybe” legit players?

1. Tatum
2. Brown
3. Porzingis
4. White
5. Brogdon
6. Timelord
7. Horford
8. Hauser
9. Pritchard
10. Brissett

I would argue that Hauser & Pritchard are on the same level as Braun/Green who was Denver’s 8th guy in the rotation. Same level as Duncan Robinson, who was their 8th man.

People will point to the Miami series, but that was won by their 3-6 kind of guys in Vincent & Martin. Would anyone take those two over White or Brogdon?

Your whinging just doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. Please name these three / four Nuggets bench pieces who had this massive impact. You are ridiculously high on other benches whilst being absurdly critical of ours.

[Roy H.]

This move is 100% related to the 2nd apron in the new CBA. It's a bit disingenuous to complain that other teams are signing "legit" NBA players and the Cs are signing g leaguers. It's been documented that the Ca have tried to sign players like Pat Bev to more than minimum contracts but the July 6 RFA signing date meant vets would have to wait to sign and most vets on the edge of being outbof the league are taking certainty of role and of the early contract.

What provision of the CBA prevented us from signing vets until the Grant Williams situation was resolved? Perhaps MLE free agents, but I think it's unlikely that we use the MLE, anyway.  Grant's interview in the Athletic makes it sound like the Celtics were committed to trading Grant throughout the process, and that the holdup was insisting on a first rounder.

[Moranis]

Oh goodie another trade exception we will be too cheap to use. 

[celticinorlando]

I can’t see how anyone says this team is better today. They are extremely top heavy with maybe 6 or 7 legit players.

Bench is massively flawed. Brogdan your only scorer and he’s most of the time hurt.

Where does Boston turn if they have injuries to the starters?

I don’t want to hear about Sam Hauser anymore. Guy is what he is. Spot up shooter that can’t get his own shot and can’t defend.

Brissett is a g leaguer.

Walsh a rookie who can’t shoot.

Banton is a practice player

Where is the the bench scoring coming from again?

The bench is a huge reason the nuggets won the title. They have three or four legit players that had a massive impact.

Is it Horford, Timelord, or both who are “maybe” legit players?

1. Tatum
2. Brown
3. Porzingis
4. White
5. Brogdon
6. Timelord
7. Horford
8. Hauser
9. Pritchard
10. Brissett

I would argue that Hauser & Pritchard are on the same level as Braun/Green who was Denver’s 8th guy in the rotation. Same level as Duncan Robinson, who was their 8th man.

People will point to the Miami series, but that was won by their 3-6 kind of guys in Vincent & Martin. Would anyone take those two over White or Brogdon?

Your whinging just doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. Please name these three / four Nuggets bench pieces who had this massive impact. You are ridiculously high on other benches whilst being absurdly critical of ours.

I think if everyone is healthy Boston has 7 legit players.

I am pointing out that after those top 7 guys you listed Boston doesn’t have anyone that can be considered regular rotational players that impact a game. Denver had Braun, brown and Jeff green.

You seem to be extremely happy with the direction of the bench which is your right. But there are players that the coach doesn’t even trust that you are counting on.

[cman88]

I can’t see how anyone says this team is better today. They are extremely top heavy with maybe 6 or 7 legit players.

Bench is massively flawed. Brogdan your only scorer and he’s most of the time hurt.

Where does Boston turn if they have injuries to the starters?

I don’t want to hear about Sam Hauser anymore. Guy is what he is. Spot up shooter that can’t get his own shot and can’t defend.

Brissett is a g leaguer.

Walsh a rookie who can’t shoot.

Banton is a practice player

Where is the the bench scoring coming from again?

The bench is a huge reason the nuggets won the title. They have three or four legit players that had a massive impact.

Is it Horford, Timelord, or both who are “maybe” legit players?

1. Tatum
2. Brown
3. Porzingis
4. White
5. Brogdon
6. Timelord
7. Horford
8. Hauser
9. Pritchard
10. Brissett

I would argue that Hauser & Pritchard are on the same level as Braun/Green who was Denver’s 8th guy in the rotation. Same level as Duncan Robinson, who was their 8th man.

People will point to the Miami series, but that was won by their 3-6 kind of guys in Vincent & Martin. Would anyone take those two over White or Brogdon?

Your whinging just doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. Please name these three / four Nuggets bench pieces who had this massive impact. You are ridiculously high on other benches whilst being absurdly critical of ours.

I think if everyone is healthy Boston has 7 legit players.

I am pointing out that after those top 7 guys you listed Boston doesn’t have anyone that can be considered regular rotational players that impact a game. Denver had Braun, brown and Jeff green.

You seem to be extremely happy with the direction of the bench which is your right. But there are players that the coach doesn’t even trust that you are counting on.

Why are we discounting Pritchard and Hauser?

Both have proven to be NBA caliber players and should receive playing time.

[Roy H.]

Why are we discounting Pritchard and Hauser?

Both have proven to be NBA caliber players and should receive playing time.

Why did *Joe* discount Pritchard and Hauser (and Grant, as well).

[celticinorlando]

I can’t see how anyone says this team is better today. They are extremely top heavy with maybe 6 or 7 legit players.

Bench is massively flawed. Brogdan your only scorer and he’s most of the time hurt.

Where does Boston turn if they have injuries to the starters?

I don’t want to hear about Sam Hauser anymore. Guy is what he is. Spot up shooter that can’t get his own shot and can’t defend.

Brissett is a g leaguer.

Walsh a rookie who can’t shoot.

Banton is a practice player

Where is the the bench scoring coming from again?

The bench is a huge reason the nuggets won the title. They have three or four legit players that had a massive impact.

Is it Horford, Timelord, or both who are “maybe” legit players?

1. Tatum
2. Brown
3. Porzingis
4. White
5. Brogdon
6. Timelord
7. Horford
8. Hauser
9. Pritchard
10. Brissett

I would argue that Hauser & Pritchard are on the same level as Braun/Green who was Denver’s 8th guy in the rotation. Same level as Duncan Robinson, who was their 8th man.

People will point to the Miami series, but that was won by their 3-6 kind of guys in Vincent & Martin. Would anyone take those two over White or Brogdon?

Your whinging just doesn’t seem to make any sense to me. Please name these three / four Nuggets bench pieces who had this massive impact. You are ridiculously high on other benches whilst being absurdly critical of ours.

I think if everyone is healthy Boston has 7 legit players.

I am pointing out that after those top 7 guys you listed Boston doesn’t have anyone that can be considered regular rotational players that impact a game. Denver had Braun, brown and Jeff green.

You seem to be extremely happy with the direction of the bench which is your right. But there are players that the coach doesn’t even trust that you are counting on.

Why are we discounting Pritchard and Hauser?

Both have proven to be NBA caliber players and should receive playing time.

It’s concerning that Joe doesn’t trust either of them. Celtics needed shooting and some grit in the playoff and neither were looked at.

Maybe he will be forced to use them this year.