Am I the only one wanting more?

[Vermont Green]

I will start by saying that even if we were to begin the season without any further impact additions, I think the team is fine, better than last season.  At a minimum, we will fill out the end of the bench but we may or may not add another rotation level wing or big.  A couple of observations:

I still feel we are short a bench wing but we were short a bench wing last season and were able to overcome that.  Now we have Brogdon in the mix and have even more flexibility.  But when we bring in Brogdon for say Brown, we will be giving up some scoring punch.  In many cases, that will be fine but I would like to have a legitimate vet bench wing.  I feel we are combo guard heavy and wing light as comparted to optimal.  Not a fatal flow by any means but a weakness that we should be able to address.

I seem to be in the minority but I am less worried about our big depth.  Last season, down the stretch and in the playoffs, the rotation was Horford, RWilliams, GWilliams, and a little bit of Theis.  And this included a gimpy RWill.  Theis played some but mostly only when RWill was unavailable.  Even with this limited big rotation, we made it to the finals.  Now we have added Gallinari who is certainly an upgrade over Theis and probably an upgrade over Grant.  We are a solid 4 deep where last year we were 3.5 at best (Theis being the 0.5).  People are rightfully concerned with RWill's durability and want some "insurance".  I understand that but don't see the need for this insurance to be as pressing as the lack of wing depth.

[Roy H.]

I will start by saying that even if we were to begin the season without any further impact additions, I think the team is fine, better than last season.  At a minimum, we will fill out the end of the bench but we may or may not add another rotation level wing or big.  A couple of observations:

I still feel we are short a bench wing but we were short a bench wing last season and were able to overcome that.  Now we have Brogdon in the mix and have even more flexibility.  But when we bring in Brogdon for say Brown, we will be giving up some scoring punch.  In many cases, that will be fine but I would like to have a legitimate vet bench wing.  I feel we are combo guard heavy and wing light as comparted to optimal.  Not a fatal flow by any means but a weakness that we should be able to address.

I seem to be in the minority but I am less worried about our big depth.  Last season, down the stretch and in the playoffs, the rotation was Horford, RWilliams, GWilliams, and a little bit of Theis.  And this included a gimpy RWill.  Theis played some but mostly only when RWill was unavailable.  Even with this limited big rotation, we made it to the finals.  Now we have added Gallinari who is certainly an upgrade over Theis and probably an upgrade over Grant.  We are a solid 4 deep where last year we were 3.5 at best (Theis being the 0.5).  People are rightfully concerned with RWill's durability and want some "insurance".  I understand that but don't see the need for this insurance to be as pressing as the lack of wing depth.

I think filling the Theis spot is important.  Theis gave us 9 / 7 / 56% FG% against Brooklyn when Timelord was out.  Yes, we swept that series, but it was a close one:  we won those four games by 17 combined points.  Without Theis' production, there's a chance that we lose multiple games against the Nets, perhaps even the series.

Downgrading from Theis to Kornet wouldn't be acceptable, in my opinion.  I think that we'll fill the hole.  To me, it looks like a significant one.

[Vermont Green]

I will start by saying that even if we were to begin the season without any further impact additions, I think the team is fine, better than last season.  At a minimum, we will fill out the end of the bench but we may or may not add another rotation level wing or big.  A couple of observations:

I still feel we are short a bench wing but we were short a bench wing last season and were able to overcome that.  Now we have Brogdon in the mix and have even more flexibility.  But when we bring in Brogdon for say Brown, we will be giving up some scoring punch.  In many cases, that will be fine but I would like to have a legitimate vet bench wing.  I feel we are combo guard heavy and wing light as comparted to optimal.  Not a fatal flow by any means but a weakness that we should be able to address.

I seem to be in the minority but I am less worried about our big depth.  Last season, down the stretch and in the playoffs, the rotation was Horford, RWilliams, GWilliams, and a little bit of Theis.  And this included a gimpy RWill.  Theis played some but mostly only when RWill was unavailable.  Even with this limited big rotation, we made it to the finals.  Now we have added Gallinari who is certainly an upgrade over Theis and probably an upgrade over Grant.  We are a solid 4 deep where last year we were 3.5 at best (Theis being the 0.5).  People are rightfully concerned with RWill's durability and want some "insurance".  I understand that but don't see the need for this insurance to be as pressing as the lack of wing depth.

I think filling the Theis spot is important.  Theis gave us 9 / 7 / 56% FG% against Brooklyn when Timelord was out.  Yes, we swept that series, but it was a close one:  we won those four games by 17 combined points.  Without Theis' production, there's a chance that we lose multiple games against the Nets, perhaps even the series.

Downgrading from Theis to Kornet wouldn't be acceptable, in my opinion.  I think that we'll fill the hole.  To me, it looks like a significant one.

I see this addressed by adding Gallinari, not Kornet.  I suspect your point is that Gallinari is a PF and Theis a Center but I look at them both as just bigs.  Theis played with Horford and Gallinari can play with Horford but with Horford more of the C and Gallinari more of the PF.  I think Gallinari + Horford is still better than Theis + Horford, and better by a fair amount.  This is enabled by Horford's versatility.  Horford is a better C than Theis.  There is no issue sliding him over when Gallinari is on the floor.  He does the same when Grant plays.  And I think there will be plenty of match ups where Gallinari could play C but that would be my 3rd option after RWill and Horford.  Kornet is the 6th or 7th option, right after Marcus Smart.

I think the weakness in the big rotation is that it would be nice to have a long athletic defensive minded big available off the bench and we don't have that.  But no roster is perfect.  I see this issue as more insurance against RWill's durability which is a real concern but may not even be a problem.  As the big rotation stands, I think we have plenty of versatility and talent to be a title contending team again.

[Surferdad]

   I can’t express how little I care about billionaires and their money.  Obviously the Celtics are very close so if it’s worth winning the title paying a severe tax I hope they do it. I’m not gonna complain up and down if they don’t spend much more but I certainly won’t have any love for them.
   They wouldn’t pay Posey which could have been the reason not winning it in 2009 if KG DIDN’T go down. I was pretty blown away they took that risk when they did.

Chris Forsberg at NBC Sports Boston outlined what would happen tax wise if they did spend the TPE.

After a full year of speculation about what the Celtics might do with the $17.1 million traded player exception generated in the Evan Fournier sign and trade, there is the very real chance it could vaporize without use on July 18.

That would be a bad thing if Boston hadn’t splurged to land Brogdon, adding $67.6 million in salary over the next three seasons. The Celtics are now committed to nearly $170 million in contracts for these 12 players (with 2022-23 contract value):

Jayson Tatum -- $30.4M
Jaylen Brown -- $28.7M
Al Horford -- $26.5M
Malcolm Brogdon -- $22.6M
Marcus Smart -- $17.2M
Derrick White -- $16.4M
Robert Williams -- $10.7M
Danilo Gallinari -- $6.5M
Grant Williams -- $4.3M
Payton Pritchard -- $2.1M
Luke Kornet -- $2.1M
Sam Hauser -- $1.9M

The Celtics can remain relatively opportunistic with the TPE. If there’s a low-cost player who's worth adding, the team can pounce via trade. But at $20 million over the tax line with no pain-free means to shed salary along the 2022-23 journey, the Celtics might be at their spending limit. Boston is projected to be at nearly $225 million in total commitment when projecting their tax bill given the elevated rates that come the further you wade into tax waters.

Which is to say it’s hard to see the Celtics taking on, as an example, another $8 million player via the TPE, as it would push their total spend to roughly $260 million. The Celtics are essentially paying at least $3.75 million per $1 million spent for every dollar spent after $20 million over the tax.

Now, Boston has paid four second-round picks to keep a big TPE alive through its incarnations with Gordon Hayward and Fournier. Still, it’s a sunk cost and it gave the Celtics an alternate way to add high-level talent if the Brogdon deal had never materialized. The cost to acquire Brogdon was so low that Boston can stomach losing the TPE if there’s no way to kick it further down the road.

The Celtics could use the TPE to find a defensive-minded wing or third center to fill out the roster but only if those players were worth splurging a draft asset and represent something over what’s attainable with a minimum contract on the free-agent market.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/extensions-for-jaylen-brown-and-grant-williams-among-things-the-celtics-need-to-still-address

Hard to see them spending another $35m for a $8m player who might just sit the pine. Or $70m to use the whole thing. Unless they find someone good enough to replace someone on the 9-11 man rotation, in which case they just decide to do a trade. Vet mins are probably the most likely additions.

Of course if Wyc wants to spend an extra $35m-$70m to have someone at the end of the bench as insurance, I would be happy for him to do so - it's not my money  

This is where I'm at. The TPE is not that useful if it costs 4 dollars for every dollar in salary added.

[Celtics2021]

I will start by saying that even if we were to begin the season without any further impact additions, I think the team is fine, better than last season.  At a minimum, we will fill out the end of the bench but we may or may not add another rotation level wing or big.  A couple of observations:

I still feel we are short a bench wing but we were short a bench wing last season and were able to overcome that.  Now we have Brogdon in the mix and have even more flexibility.  But when we bring in Brogdon for say Brown, we will be giving up some scoring punch.  In many cases, that will be fine but I would like to have a legitimate vet bench wing.  I feel we are combo guard heavy and wing light as comparted to optimal.  Not a fatal flow by any means but a weakness that we should be able to address.

I seem to be in the minority but I am less worried about our big depth.  Last season, down the stretch and in the playoffs, the rotation was Horford, RWilliams, GWilliams, and a little bit of Theis.  And this included a gimpy RWill.  Theis played some but mostly only when RWill was unavailable.  Even with this limited big rotation, we made it to the finals.  Now we have added Gallinari who is certainly an upgrade over Theis and probably an upgrade over Grant.  We are a solid 4 deep where last year we were 3.5 at best (Theis being the 0.5).  People are rightfully concerned with RWill's durability and want some "insurance".  I understand that but don't see the need for this insurance to be as pressing as the lack of wing depth.

I think filling the Theis spot is important.  Theis gave us 9 / 7 / 56% FG% against Brooklyn when Timelord was out.  Yes, we swept that series, but it was a close one:  we won those four games by 17 combined points.  Without Theis' production, there's a chance that we lose multiple games against the Nets, perhaps even the series.

Downgrading from Theis to Kornet wouldn't be acceptable, in my opinion.  I think that we'll fill the hole.  To me, it looks like a significant one.

I think we’ll fill that hole, although there’s a chance that hole isn’t filled until January or February.  It’s not a pure downgrade from Theis to Kornet, because there will probably be fewer minutes given to that player with the other roster additions, so you’re talking about a guy who into plays when one of two players is unavailable. You want someone better than Kornet in that role, but you also don’t necessarily need that player immediately.

[nebist]

Since adding major money into the TPE is so cost-prohibitive and our rotation is pretty packed anyways, I am keeping a slight eye on more of a player-for-player deal.

Specifically, I continue to wonder about the Spurs willingness to move Keldon Johnson. They have a million young wings they need to develop (Vassell, Branham, Primo, Wesley, Langford, Sochan). They want to be bad this year and Johnson is the most accomplished scorer they have left.

Could Grant and a 2nd get you Johnson? Grant and Pritchard? Would it cost Grant and a 1st?
Not sure. But he’s the guy I’m keeping an eye because his salary is only 4 mil and the Spurs tank situation.

[Vermont Green]

I think the most tradeable guy right now is White.  He represents $16.4M of contract so we could take back up to $20M'ish in a regular trade.  Or we could send him out into some other team's cap space or TPE, get back a fresh TPE, and use the one we have now in kind of a 3-way trade.  In either of these cases, we loose White but don't have to add salary.  In the latter case, we end up kind of rolling over our TPE from Fournier and keep it open for another year.

I am not saying that trading White is likely, and very unlikely before Jul 18 (when the Fournier TPE expires) but my understanding is that we could do a trade now with the TPE and so long as we traded White or otherwise reduced salary before the end of the season, that the tax is calculated based on the salary at the end of the season, not the beginning.  So there are some options.

Someone please confirm but is it correct that we could acquire someone now with the TPE and trade White say at the deadline and not be on the hook for the increased tax?

[Who]

I feel we are combo guard heavy and wing light as comparted to optimal.

Yeah, we only really have two wings in Tatum and Jaylen.

3 if you include Hauser but I don't. He is a developmental roster spot and 15th man on the team until he proves otherwise as far as I am concerned. Which is why I don't want any more developmental wing prospects on the team. 1 is enough for a title contender. We need someone reliable.

We have more of a guards and forwards orientated team than a wing based team. Guards are expected to be able to play both guard spots and our main guys are able to do so - Smart, D White, Brogdon. And then a specialist shooter PG in Pritchard. And forwards are expected to play both spots and are somewhat able (less able than the guards) to do so - Gallo, G Williams. Then we have one combo big in Horford as a PF / C and a specialist defensive center in Rob Williams.

I suppose this doesn't give Brogdon enough credit. He is more of a combo guard but he can play SF well and is actually our 3rd best SF on the team. At 6-5 229lbs with long arms (6 foot 10 wingspan) he is able to matchup physically against most SFs quite well.

[Who]

But when we bring in Brogdon for say Brown, we will be giving up some scoring punch.

I'll change scoring punch to offensive creation to include scoring + playmaking / passing. In that case, I believe Brogdon brings a comparable amount of offense to the table as Jaylen Brown does.

So Brogdon gives you some less scoring creation but more passing creation which on balance gives you something similar overall on offense as Jaylen offers.

[GreenBoomer]

If they're not using the TPE, just sign Kabengele and T. Williams.

[nebist]

I think the most tradeable guy right now is White.  He represents $16.4M of contract so we could take back up to $20M'ish in a regular trade.  Or we could send him out into some other team's cap space or TPE, get back a fresh TPE, and use the one we have now in kind of a 3-way trade.  In either of these cases, we loose White but don't have to add salary.  In the latter case, we end up kind of rolling over our TPE from Fournier and keep it open for another year.

I am not saying that trading White is likely, and very unlikely before Jul 18 (when the Fournier TPE expires) but my understanding is that we could do a trade now with the TPE and so long as we traded White or otherwise reduced salary before the end of the season, that the tax is calculated based on the salary at the end of the season, not the beginning.  So there are some options.

Someone please confirm but is it correct that we could acquire someone now with the TPE and trade White say at the deadline and not be on the hook for the increased tax?

That’s true, but I don’t know how many TPEs larger than White’s contract even exist right now in the NBA. It’s not a bad thought, but I think it’s probably too complicated to actually happen.

[Vermont Green]

But when we bring in Brogdon for say Brown, we will be giving up some scoring punch.

I'll change scoring punch to offensive creation to include scoring + playmaking / passing. In that case, I believe Brogdon brings a comparable amount of offense to the table as Jaylen Brown does.

So Brogdon gives you some less scoring creation but more passing creation which on balance gives you something similar overall on offense as Jaylen offers.

I agree but this depends on who else is on the court with Brogdon.  To be clear, I am not overly concerned, just pointing out a weakness or soft spot.  With any line up, you need a certain critical mass of players on the court that can get buckets.  Not everyone needs to be able to do this but when we have Brown and Tatum, those are the guys that when needed, can get buckets.  Brogdon can do that too to some degree and he is a good passer also but if the line up is say Smart, Brogdon, Tatum, Horford, RWill, that puts that much more pressure on Tatum to be the bucket getter.  Again, not the end of the world but a little light of shot creation/bucket getting.

I admit that this is nit picking what I expect to be a very good roster.  A better roster than last season's that made it to the finals.  And this is only for the start of the season.  Adjustments can be made and I expect some tweaking will be done along the way.  Maybe Brogdon settles in just fine as a guard/wing and this isn't even an issue.  Maybe White brings a little more shooting this season now that he is hopefully more comfortable.  Maybe not and we need to make a trade at the deadline like we did last season.

[Roy H.]

VG, are there any wings that you have in mind who are available for the minimum?  Or are you thinking of a trade?

[konkmv]

Whiteside and j.jackson

[Vermont Green]

VG, are there any wings that you have in mind who are available for the minimum?  Or are you thinking of a trade?

I don't, and to be honest, I am not that worried if we start the season just as we are.  There will be some min contracts to round out the roster, some wings and some bigs likely, but probably not the vet wing I am envisioning. 

I am looking forward to seeing Brogdon play as a Celtic to get a better idea of what we have in him.  He may be able to be the vet wing we need.  Or he may turn out to be redundant to White leaving us thin at wing.  Hauser may step up.

I am actually pretty happy with the roster with Brogdon and Gallinari added.