Rumor: Hornets forward Gordon Hayward wants change of scenery

[Who]

I think a pretty key thing people really keep overlooking is that the hornets are probably in their best situation in at least ten years, maybe longer. I know last year was their most wins in at least 6 seasons. Ball is the best prospect they have had, since what Larry Johnson? Bridges could be close to an all star. Rozier and oubre are solid starters.

I see LaMelo and Hayward as the two guys who move the W-L column the most for that team. Then Bridges and Rozier as supporting acts / quasi stars. Both put up big points per game number but I do not believe they move the W-L column all that much. More solid starters than true stars.

I really like that as a four man nucleus. I like Mason Plumlee too at center although preferably as a backup. I saw the main reason for their season not being better (outside of Hayward missing games) was the lack of a 2nd quality big man at center to go with Plumlee along with a very weak bench. I am not a fan of Oubre. But I do feel if you pickup a solid rotation caliber center and build a league average type or slightly better level bench, that this Hornets team could be a 48-52 win team next year with their current nucleus. Not really a contender but a really good team.

It's interesting, I do see Rozier & Bridges as good enough to be the 3rd & 4th options on a title contender but they need a stronger 1-2 punch up front than LaMelo & Hayward. True All-NBA top 10 players in the league stars. That is what is holding them back from contending. For LaMelo and Hayward to contend, they probably need to swap Rozier & Bridges for two other guys who are at a similar level as LaMelo & Hayward.

Also, I reckon they were even more fun a year ago with Devonte Graham. That extra speedy ball-handling playmaking guard gave them four legit ball-handlers breaking down the defense (LaMelo, Hayward, Graham, Rozier) along with Bridges as a 5th gun. They were easier to load up on (Hayward, LaMelo) without Graham on the team any more. And less able to force tempo / switch tempo. Graham was the only other guy other than LaMelo that was able to push the ball fast and get others involved.

[Who]

They as a franchise literally can not afford to take Westbrook in and buy him out.

Is there a case to be made for trading Hayward for Westbrook in terms of a cap dump? Maybe dump Oubre as well. Lose one season in dead weight cap-wise. Then enter 2023 free agency and try to get a star free agent to play alongside LaMelo. Someone younger and less injury prone than Hayward.

I could see that as a good long term direction for the team also.

Although selfishly, I would prefer to see them keep it together and add to the group because they are a fun group. I love the way they pass and shoot the ball with LaMelo and Hayward in the lineup.

[nickagneta]

I think a pretty key thing people really keep overlooking is that the hornets are probably in their best situation in at least ten years, maybe longer. I know last year was their most wins in at least 6 seasons. Ball is the best prospect they have had, since what Larry Johnson? Bridges could be close to an all star. Rozier and oubre are solid starters.

I see LaMelo and Hayward as the two guys who move the W-L column the most for that team. Then Bridges and Rozier as supporting acts / quasi stars. Both put up big points per game number but I do not believe they move the W-L column all that much. More solid starters than true stars.

I really like that as a four man nucleus. I like Mason Plumlee too at center although preferably as a backup. I saw the main reason for their season not being better (outside of Hayward missing games) was the lack of a 2nd quality big man at center to go with Plumlee along with a very weak bench. I am not a fan of Oubre. But I do feel if you pickup a solid rotation caliber center and build a league average type or slightly better level bench, that this Hornets team could be a 48-52 win team next year with their current nucleus. Not really a contender but a really good team.

It's interesting, I do see Rozier & Bridges as good enough to be the 3rd & 4th options on a title contender but they need a stronger 1-2 punch up front than LaMelo & Hayward. True All-NBA top 10 players in the league stars. That is what is holding them back from contending. For LaMelo and Hayward to contend, they probably need to swap Rozier & Bridges for two other guys who are at a similar level as LaMelo & Hayward.

Also, I reckon they were even more fun a year ago with Devonte Graham. That extra speedy ball-handling playmaking guard gave them four legit ball-handlers breaking down the defense (LaMelo, Hayward, Graham, Rozier) along with Bridges as a 5th gun. They were easier to load up on (Hayward, LaMelo) without Graham on the team any more. And less able to force tempo / switch tempo. Graham was the only other guy other than LaMelo that was able to push the ball fast and get others involved.

Nothing about PJ Washington? I think he is a very strong piece to their core.

[celticsclay]

They as a franchise literally can not afford to take Westbrook in and buy him out.

Is there a case to be made for trading Hayward for Westbrook in terms of a cap dump? Maybe dump Oubre as well. Lose one season in dead weight cap-wise. Then enter 2023 free agency and try to get a star free agent to play alongside LaMelo. Someone younger and less injury prone than Hayward.

I could see that as a good long term direction for the team also.

Although selfishly, I would prefer to see them keep it together and add to the group because they are a fun group. I love the way they pass and shoot the ball with LaMelo and Hayward in the lineup.

No there isn’t, that is what my whole post was about. Small market teams with mediocre fan support and rising stars don’t punt seasons to buy out guys.

Also I will add teams will do this if they are at an early stage of their rebuild like okc was with very raw prospects when they took Horford. But ball was an all star last year, bridges is entering his prime, oubre and rozier are in their prime and they won 43 games last season. You don’t go into tank mode at this point. They are not having 45 million dead on their cap.

[Who]

I think a pretty key thing people really keep overlooking is that the hornets are probably in their best situation in at least ten years, maybe longer. I know last year was their most wins in at least 6 seasons. Ball is the best prospect they have had, since what Larry Johnson? Bridges could be close to an all star. Rozier and oubre are solid starters.

I see LaMelo and Hayward as the two guys who move the W-L column the most for that team. Then Bridges and Rozier as supporting acts / quasi stars. Both put up big points per game number but I do not believe they move the W-L column all that much. More solid starters than true stars.

I really like that as a four man nucleus. I like Mason Plumlee too at center although preferably as a backup. I saw the main reason for their season not being better (outside of Hayward missing games) was the lack of a 2nd quality big man at center to go with Plumlee along with a very weak bench. I am not a fan of Oubre. But I do feel if you pickup a solid rotation caliber center and build a league average type or slightly better level bench, that this Hornets team could be a 48-52 win team next year with their current nucleus. Not really a contender but a really good team.

It's interesting, I do see Rozier & Bridges as good enough to be the 3rd & 4th options on a title contender but they need a stronger 1-2 punch up front than LaMelo & Hayward. True All-NBA top 10 players in the league stars. That is what is holding them back from contending. For LaMelo and Hayward to contend, they probably need to swap Rozier & Bridges for two other guys who are at a similar level as LaMelo & Hayward.

Also, I reckon they were even more fun a year ago with Devonte Graham. That extra speedy ball-handling playmaking guard gave them four legit ball-handlers breaking down the defense (LaMelo, Hayward, Graham, Rozier) along with Bridges as a 5th gun. They were easier to load up on (Hayward, LaMelo) without Graham on the team any more. And less able to force tempo / switch tempo. Graham was the only other guy other than LaMelo that was able to push the ball fast and get others involved.

Nothing about PJ Washington? I think he is a very strong piece to their core.

Oh yes, I forgot about him. He is a solid player.

I was disappointed with him last season. He did not play as well at forward as I would've liked. His offense wasn't consistent enough; his outside shooting & reluctance  / hesitancy to shoot / get shots off. He tended to do better when they played him in a smaller lineup with him at center where he had more time and space on offense but those lineups were problematic defensively for an already defensively challenged team. They need to get away from those lineups to have an adequate team defense.

PJ is definitely a keeper though. Possibly a long term starter if he can get more confident in his outside shot. They should have a nice 3 man forward rotation with Hayward, Bridges and PJ.

I don't consider him a core player. I see core players as average or better starting quality players. PJ has to give more offense before I put him up there.

[Who]

They as a franchise literally can not afford to take Westbrook in and buy him out.

Is there a case to be made for trading Hayward for Westbrook in terms of a cap dump? Maybe dump Oubre as well. Lose one season in dead weight cap-wise. Then enter 2023 free agency and try to get a star free agent to play alongside LaMelo. Someone younger and less injury prone than Hayward.

I could see that as a good long term direction for the team also.

Although selfishly, I would prefer to see them keep it together and add to the group because they are a fun group. I love the way they pass and shoot the ball with LaMelo and Hayward in the lineup.

No there isn’t, that is what my whole post was about. Small market teams with mediocre fan support and rising stars don’t punt seasons to buy out guys.

I don't know about that. I feel small market teams make long term mistakes when they think like that.

Fans come when you win. If you get your long term strategy right, you'll get back most of the fans you lost and many new ones to replace and improve beyond the old fan base. It is more about long term winning and title contention.

Also, if it is just 1yr it an easier sell. Although if they fail to land a top free agent then things start to get messy given CHA's history there in late 90s early 00s with that fan base.

[celticsclay]

They as a franchise literally can not afford to take Westbrook in and buy him out.

Is there a case to be made for trading Hayward for Westbrook in terms of a cap dump? Maybe dump Oubre as well. Lose one season in dead weight cap-wise. Then enter 2023 free agency and try to get a star free agent to play alongside LaMelo. Someone younger and less injury prone than Hayward.

I could see that as a good long term direction for the team also.

Although selfishly, I would prefer to see them keep it together and add to the group because they are a fun group. I love the way they pass and shoot the ball with LaMelo and Hayward in the lineup.

No there isn’t, that is what my whole post was about. Small market teams with mediocre fan support and rising stars don’t punt seasons to buy out guys.

I don't know about that. I feel small market teams make long term mistakes when they think like that.

Fans come when you win. If you get your long term strategy right, you'll get back most of the fans you lost and many new ones to replace and improve beyond the old fan base. It is more about long term winning and title contention.

Also, if it is just 1yr it an easier sell. Although if they fail to land a top free agent then things start to get messy given CHA's history there in late 90s early 00s with that fan base.

I’ll just agree to disagree. If they actually take Westbrook and cut him I’ll give you a bunch of tommy points, but it’s really laker and Lebron fan fiction even though the lakers front office has been asking coaches how they will use Westbrook.

[Csfan1984]

I'd love Hayward and Rozier back but their salary is too high. Miss Baynes here as well. Though I know Baynes kind of doesn't fit modern NBA

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Didn’t Hayward leave because he wanted to make more money and have a bigger role? Has this changed? If so, lowball and see what happens. Otherwise, I’d rather pay a young guy with more to prove. Hayward is the forward version of DWhite. Pretty good at most things, but master of none.

[Moranis]

They as a franchise literally can not afford to take Westbrook in and buy him out.

Is there a case to be made for trading Hayward for Westbrook in terms of a cap dump? Maybe dump Oubre as well. Lose one season in dead weight cap-wise. Then enter 2023 free agency and try to get a star free agent to play alongside LaMelo. Someone younger and less injury prone than Hayward.

I could see that as a good long term direction for the team also.

Although selfishly, I would prefer to see them keep it together and add to the group because they are a fun group. I love the way they pass and shoot the ball with LaMelo and Hayward in the lineup.

That was exactly the point I was making.  2023 is a big summer for them because LaMelo hasn't yet signed his extension.  If they cleared Hayward and Rozier, they'd have room for 2 max (or near max) players to go with Ball, Bouknight, 22 1st, and Washington and Bridges who they will both likely extend this summer. 

A trade like that for Westbrook is about clearing the long term salary to really build the team around Ball. 

So the latest trade I proposed was a 3 team trade

3 team trade

CHA - Westbrook, THT, Saric, Lakers 26 1st (lotto)
LAL - Paul, Oubre, Crowder
PHO - Hayward, Rozier, Lakers 28 1st (lotto)

So in 2023 Charlotte would have a team option on THT, and the only contracts locked in for Ball, Bouknight, Jones, Thor (partial guarantee), 2022 1st, 2023 1st (if they keep it), and then whomever they re-signed along the way, most likely Washington and Bridges and the Bird Rights for Saric, Plumlee, and McDaniels.  They'd have the extra Lakers pick a few years down the line.  So they'd have massive cap room and a bunch of 1st round picks, so they'd be able to really do a lot to build around Ball. 

Obviously they wouldn't be as good in 22-23, but they'd be set up much better for 2023 and beyond and would also end up with a better draft pick in 23 or at all (they only keep the pick if it is in the top 16).  Even if they like Rozier long term and want to keep him, they won't have near the flexibility in 2023 if they don't move Hayward for an expiring contract this summer.  And since Hayward makes a ton of money, is often injured, and basically wants out, I think they have to move him.  Now maybe they can do better than Westbrook and a 1st, but I wouldn't bet on that.

[ozgod]

I'd love Hayward and Rozier back but their salary is too high. Miss Baynes here as well. Though I know Baynes kind of doesn't fit modern NBA

I doubt Baynes will ever play again after his accident and near death/near paralysis experience at the Olympics. Which is a shame. I guess he's fortunate to walk again.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33153946/the-mysterious-fall-harrowing-story-nba-center

[Kernewek]

I'd love Hayward and Rozier back but their salary is too high. Miss Baynes here as well. Though I know Baynes kind of doesn't fit modern NBA

I doubt Baynes will ever play again after his accident and near death/near paralysis experience at the Olympics. Which is a shame. I guess he's fortunate to walk again.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33153946/the-mysterious-fall-harrowing-story-nba-center

Missed this one, that's horrible. Hope his recovery goes all right.

[gouki88]

I'd love Hayward and Rozier back but their salary is too high. Miss Baynes here as well. Though I know Baynes kind of doesn't fit modern NBA

I doubt Baynes will ever play again after his accident and near death/near paralysis experience at the Olympics. Which is a shame. I guess he's fortunate to walk again.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33153946/the-mysterious-fall-harrowing-story-nba-center

Missed this one, that's horrible. Hope his recovery goes all right.

It was weirdly (relatively) buried by mainstream basketball news outlets. Living in Australia it was a fairly huge story.

[Big333223]

Some of the Hayward takes in this thread are pretty wild.

I was never his biggest fan but last season he was 16-5-4 with .459/.391/.846 splits and solid defense. He just turned 32 which is still young in today's NBA.

He's overpaid but his contract is nowhere near the albatross some are making it out to be. It was the 34th biggest contract in the league last season and it'll get marginally better as bigger deals continue to be signed.

He's overpaid but with rising salaries, it's not a gross overpay. If he were healthy, one could almost argue it's a fair contract given the need for big wings everyone has.

[celticsclay]

They as a franchise literally can not afford to take Westbrook in and buy him out.

Is there a case to be made for trading Hayward for Westbrook in terms of a cap dump? Maybe dump Oubre as well. Lose one season in dead weight cap-wise. Then enter 2023 free agency and try to get a star free agent to play alongside LaMelo. Someone younger and less injury prone than Hayward.

I could see that as a good long term direction for the team also.

Although selfishly, I would prefer to see them keep it together and add to the group because they are a fun group. I love the way they pass and shoot the ball with LaMelo and Hayward in the lineup.

That was exactly the point I was making.  2023 is a big summer for them because LaMelo hasn't yet signed his extension.  If they cleared Hayward and Rozier, they'd have room for 2 max (or near max) players to go with Ball, Bouknight, 22 1st, and Washington and Bridges who they will both likely extend this summer. 

A trade like that for Westbrook is about clearing the long term salary to really build the team around Ball. 

So the latest trade I proposed was a 3 team trade

3 team trade

CHA - Westbrook, THT, Saric, Lakers 26 1st (lotto)
LAL - Paul, Oubre, Crowder
PHO - Hayward, Rozier, Lakers 28 1st (lotto)

So in 2023 Charlotte would have a team option on THT, and the only contracts locked in for Ball, Bouknight, Jones, Thor (partial guarantee), 2022 1st, 2023 1st (if they keep it), and then whomever they re-signed along the way, most likely Washington and Bridges and the Bird Rights for Saric, Plumlee, and McDaniels.  They'd have the extra Lakers pick a few years down the line.  So they'd have massive cap room and a bunch of 1st round picks, so they'd be able to really do a lot to build around Ball. 

Obviously they wouldn't be as good in 22-23, but they'd be set up much better for 2023 and beyond and would also end up with a better draft pick in 23 or at all (they only keep the pick if it is in the top 16).  Even if they like Rozier long term and want to keep him, they won't have near the flexibility in 2023 if they don't move Hayward for an expiring contract this summer.  And since Hayward makes a ton of money, is often injured, and basically wants out, I think they have to move him.  Now maybe they can do better than Westbrook and a 1st, but I wouldn't bet on that.

Can this be moved to the greenly trade idea thread?